Self Defense - Is it wrong?

[Allin]

Well hopefully you don't end up with a knife in your belly as a result of living in denial and refusing to take precautions as per your homemade "encampment invulnerability [false] theology."

The Bible says that God is able to protect people. It's amazing how the truth of the Bible tends to expose what we really believe-- i.e. whether or not we really believe the Bible or just believe what we are able to believe, which isn't faith at all. No one is going to come near me with gun, knife, or bad intentions. God is more than able to prevent it from happening, has done it in the past, and continues to do it now. It isn't my doctrine that I'm preaching (anyone who takes a side defends it); it's God and the truth of God's Word I'm defending. Jesus prayed for His disciples to the Father (and so for the rest of us), "Sanctify them in the truth; Your Word is truth" (Jn. 17:17). As Christians grown on a diet of 'religiosity' (which means we often don't have practical wisdom or answers because our heads are in the clouds), we all know that 'sanctify' means 'to set apart, to make holy'... but what does 'sanctify' really mean practically? Well, 'sanctify' means 'to make holy (and set apart)'; but it really means 'to make whole'. (I won't go into etymology, the lack of the w: whole, holy.) God originally made us all to be holy or whole; but sin entered and there went that. Jesus prayed that He would sanctify us (make us whole again) in the truth. He then made the final declaration of what it is that really sanctifies or makes a Christian different from a non-Christian: "Your Word is truth." God's Word, alive (not words read and regurgitated from pages) is what makes a Christian different from the world; it makes a person not just holy (as if you are no earthly good) but whole-- the way people were originally made to live. Everyone, Christian and non, is drawn to this (though some may hate it and others love it), because it is the original standard and authentic design of the human being.

If you don't believe what God's Word says, you are at the very beginning of Christianity (and I'm not kidding). God has integrity, and therefore His Word has integrity. If God says He is able to protect completely and we see it happen with Jesus until His time (and others too), then God means just that. Of course, it's one thing to live in unbelief (i.e. to live in rejection of God and His Word), and it's another to be too proud to admit that you've missed it or don't know or understand something. Anyone can argue and debate and try to look better by trying to make others look bad; but I won't argue. I have experienced more than enough to be totally secure and totally content with what I have. If you need to see things with your eyes before you believe, you've actually chosen the inferior way of doing things (though it may not seem that way because the majority of people have chosen the same way) and not the superior which is to believe without having to witness everything. It is never enough to know but to understand and then to walk in what you understand which is wisdom: "So, teach us to number our days (teach us how to live life day to day), that we may gain a heart of wisdom" (Ps. 90:12), . There are much greater things and discoveries out there outside of knowledge and simple gathering of information.

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

Allin, I'm not going to keep responding to your rambling posts in which you misrepresent my position and God's Word.

I've already corrected you more than once and would simply be repeating myself which would encourage more of your long winded misrepresentations and false assertions.

So I'm going to end it here but feel free to knock yourself out and screed a few more long posts on Allin's "encampment invulnerability [false] theology" intertwined with a false appeal to authority that everyone who doesn't agree with Allin is not aligned with God's promises that every Christian is invulnerable.

You've got your issues and I've got better things to do. Chow.

 

[Allin]

Allin, I'm not going to keep responding to your rambling posts in which you misrepresent my position and God's Word.

I've already corrected you more than once and would simply be repeating myself which would encourage more of your long winded misrepresentations and false assertions.

So I'm going to end it here but feel free to knock yourself out and screed a few more long posts on Allin's "encampment invulnerability [false] theology" intertwined with a false appeal to authority that everyone who doesn't agree with Allin is not aligned with God's promises that every Christian is invulnerable.

You've got your issues and I've got better things to do. Chow.

There is a lot more to learn, 'a vast space' out there. If you want to go further and farther, you must never settle into a camp and say, "I have all I need." You have to keep moving and expanding. But if you have all you want and you're good with what you have and don't want any more, then you can chill. Just never lose sight of the fact there is a very vast space out there, many more things to know and discover. The notion that a person can know fully is foreign except they know through the Spirit because of intimacy with God: "The secret of the Lord is with those who fear Him, and to them He will reveal His covenant" (Ps. 25:14). There are some things that cannot be found out or learned until God Himself specifically reveals them; there are many issues in our world today that happen to require this level of revelation (i.e. knowledge). I hope you find that peace that gives a person rest.

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

Thanks, but I have God's peace already so you can stop falsely asserting that I do not. But I agree that you do have a lot more to learn.

There is a lot more to learn, 'a vast space' out there. If you want to go further and farther, you must never settle into a camp and say, "I have all I need." You have to keep moving and expanding. But if you have all you want and you're good with what you have and don't want any more, then you can chill. Just never lose sight of the fact there is a very vast space out there, many more things to know and discover. The notion that a person can know fully is foreign except they know through the Spirit because of intimacy with God: "The secret of the Lord is with those who fear Him, and to them He will reveal His covenant" (Ps. 25:14). There are some things that cannot be found out or learned until God Himself specifically reveals them; there are many issues in our world today that happen to require this level of revelation (i.e. knowledge). I hope you find that peace that gives a person rest.

 

[Allin]

Thanks, but I have God's peace already so you can stop falsely asserting that I do not. But I agree that you do have a lot more to learn.

I know where you are. It's hard to find different. I hope you find a better way and perfect peace with it.

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

Wrong again. I already have God's perfect peace and I didn't need to ascribe to your false encampment invulnerability theology as a prerequisite to obtaining it either.

Obviously you are not clairvoyant either.

I know where you are. It's hard to find different. I hope you find a better way and perfect peace with it.

 

[Allin]

Wrong again. I already have God's perfect peace and I didn't need to ascribe to your false encampment invulnerability theology as a prerequisite to obtaining it either.

Obviously you are not clairvoyant either.

Well, don't go around worrying about what I am and what I'm not. I am much more than you've seen and have seen more than you imagine; that's for sure. If you have God's perfect peace, why can't you help using statements like 'false encampment theology' and 'you are not clairvoyant'. I can't say I have God's perfect peace, but it's obvious to me that name-calling and titling things is the manipulative way to go about things. You could just say, "Allin, I don't agree with what you're saying" and leave it at that; instead, you're using disdain and things like that. The internet is where some people hide behind their screens and live lives that aren't real. Don't you think it's easier to say, "Allin, I don't agree with you"? If you use accusative or disdainful statements and terms, it makes you look insecure. What's the use in calling names and all that. The real issue is that I shared something and gave biblical examples; then instead of saying, "I don't agree with that", you began to 'use words'.

If you want to talk amicably about 'encampment theology', then we can do that. (But if you want to throw your weight around online, anybody can talk rash and act tough; but some people literally don't have time. Maybe if you don't feel a need to seem tough, you will worry much less if you find yourself in a bad neighborhood.) It will come down to either you believe all that the Bible says or you believe what you can handle (and then try to sabotage anyone who believes or proves differently). Man, I've seen 'encampment theology' work in my life just like Ps. 91 says it will when you meet 'certain qualifications ("He who dwells in the secret place of the Most High"). While you act like it's me you have an issue with, it's really the Bible's claim that you don't need to be a tough guy or wield guns to protect yourself but that God can single-handedly protect you Himself. You won't get anywhere arguing with the Bible, and you won't get anywhere trying to argue with me (as if it isn't your insecurity you're fighting to defend); but if you want to talk about what the Bible means when it claims 'encampment theology', then I am willing to talk about that. Otherwise, I hope you're aware that your defense or argument or belief about this and your reaction to what I've said is all based in insecurity and pride; only people who don't know how it works don't know how it works.

Again, an open and honest (and not disdainful, wanna-be-tough-and-brag-about-hating-others) invitation: if you can read through my post on God's protection and with the Bible refute it, then you are who you think you are. But the Bible tells us to think soberly of ourselves and that none of us should think more highly of himself than he ought to. The link to the article: http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/93233-hedge-protection.html. This is for the sake of discussion; I don't have time to hash out issues or worry about one person's facade and need to appear more than he is. Take it or leave it: the Bible says and shows that God can single-handedly protect a person; you say it's impossible. Do you want to talk about it?

 

[prove-all]

i would turn the other cheek if being offended verbally,
i would never start a fight, and would try to backout or defuse situation.

if a crimanal attacked me i would defend myself,
but i would try my hardest to not hert them.

now if the government came to take me, i would not fight,
but i would not do anything they say that was againest my God

 

[Allin]

i would turn the other cheek if being offended verbally,
i would never start a fight, and would try to backout or defuse situation.

if a crimanal attacked me i would defend myself,
but i would try my hardest to not hert them.

now if the government came to take me, i would not fight,
but i would not do anything they say that was againest my God

It's about wisdom. If you're in a bad mood and someone asks you nicely for your wallet, you can give it to them, argue with them, scream and run, or take a few swings at them while explaining what a bad day you've had. Either case, as long as you're honest, God can deal with the fallout of the thing. Moses said, "Teach us to number our days, that we may gain a heart of wisdom" (Ps. 90). That basically means "teach us how to live from day to day, that is how to walk in wisdom." You can learn the hard way by experience (messing up and saying, "Now I get it"), or you can learn the easy way by wisdom (knowing how to proceed ahead of time; 'getting it' ahead of time). It's not complicated.

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

FYI Deadtossin, I found what looks to me to be a real unvideodoctored example of the vibrating palm on YouTube:

[video=youtube_share;cNArM-tzMqQ]http://youtu.be/cNArM-tzMqQ?list=UUVJQ7tUvYpbH50xL2RLoAVQ[/video]

Here he is destroying a coconut with it: upclose vibration palm strike - YouTube

Hilarious that it's some guy in his back yard but obviously he knows what he's doing. Imagine taking this guy down to the ground and before you can finish him all of a sudden you feel his vibrating palm destroy your kidney... or your heart muscle and that my friend is game over.

 

[Deadtosin]

That is interesting, I've heard of dim mak, never actually watched a demonstration of it though. These footage's look to be undoctored as you said. When I first watched the brick stuff my first thoughts go with when I worked with masonry. Vibrations cause catastrophic structural damage to things that don't give. (IE bricks) I'm not sure how well that correlates to human flesh as human flesh is designed to flex. The subject itself seems a bit controversial. I will say this though- if I have to fight someone all that is needed is a strike to the jaw. Once they go unconscious it's already game over.

 

[JesusIsAll]

I've always believed there a difference between suffering for the gospel of the Lord, and suffering at the hands of simple evil, like some criminal. One is a testimony of faith, the other laying down for evil, even, therefore, becoming complicit. And obviously, in terms of laying down for evil that harms your family, because you're feeling all pious: this is failing to provide protection to the family you're charged with the well being of, straining at the gnat and swallowing the camel,

1 Timothy 5:8 But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.

So, would I ever wish to shoot anybody? Please, God forbid! But, if I had to, I would the criminal, in a situation of simple self-defense having nothing to do with testimony, and shoot somebody for my neighbor in a violent situation, if that arose.

Not every quote not in the Bible lacks truth and merit,

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."

And, otherwise, you'd right now be a good German Nazi, or dead.

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

You have to separate the 99.9999% fraud that out there from the .0001% that's real with respect to THIS topic. And, that's close to the ratio in my observation and experience. However, this guy is clearly demonstrating what it is and how it works.

There are no invisible dim mak rays you blast across the room at a hundred opponents rendering them all incapacitated... lolol. Here's an example of a fraud who thought he could do that until a classically trained martial artist broke his beak: Incredible fight between a Kiai master and a MMA fighter - YouTube

Dillman and all the rest are full of it imo.

BUT, there are some that have the ability and this guy is a good example. If he connects with that vibrating palm on your heart or diaphragm, for example, you've got problems. And they can do that to you while they've got you in their guard too. They don't have to be standing. Think about that.

I'm older now but it was fun to take down, mount, and submit the many fakes, frauds, and BS chi artists I encountered in my youth. I was fortunate enough to be in SoCal when the Gracies (both Helio and Carlson) came to town and switched over earlier than most. HOWEVER, there really are some unarmed people that you should never tangle with. People who know how to properly apply a very strong vibrating palm "strike" from zero to one inch, whether standing or ground fighting, would definitely be among them.

That is interesting, I've heard of dim mak, never actually watched a demonstration of it though. These footage's look to be undoctored as you said. When I first watched the brick stuff my first thoughts go with when I worked with masonry. Vibrations cause catastrophic structural damage to things that don't give. (IE bricks) I'm not sure how well that correlates to human flesh as human flesh is designed to flex. The subject itself seems a bit controversial. I will say this though- if I have to fight someone all that is needed is a strike to the jaw. Once they go unconscious it's already game over.

 

[JesusIsAll]

Also, if there's no such thing as self defense, this statement of the Lord becomes utterly nonsensical, any way you slice it (no pun intended),

Luke 22:36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

Unless you would like to build an entirely new doctrine, that this statement of the Lord involves how to slice an especially tough side of beef, there is one intended use for a sword.

There, I took a stab at it...

 

[john832]

There is a distinct difference between war and self-defense.
The "work" that Jesus charged us with was sharing salvation with everyone.

Like I said, I don't know.
War should be God directed as should all other things.

Paul said, persecution wasn't a big deal. getting hurt or killed for Christ isn't that big of a deal. Paul also said that in these things we share in the same torment and pain Christ had when He was being mocked and killed.

I didn't go to war, I was a CO because I firmly believe that I am not to kill another person.

 

[john832]

You did not answer my question. How were the Jews prevented from stoning and seizing Jesus, and why did Jesus not allow Himself to be stoned?

Because He followed this principle...

Exo 14:14 The LORD will fight for you, and you shall hold your peace."

2Ch 20:15 And he said, "Listen, all you of Judah and you inhabitants of Jerusalem, and you, King Jehoshaphat! Thus says the LORD to you: 'Do not be afraid nor dismayed because of this great multitude, for the battle is not yours, but God's.

 

[john832]

It is questions like this that really test one's conversion. Will we REALLY do what God says to do?

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

IF, you can get to their jaw which isn't so easy when dealing with opponents trained to avoid and minimize punches seeking to close the distance and take you to the ground. I've watched a lot of standup fighters get taken to the ground and finished and finished a few myself in challenge matches back in the 90's that way here in SoCal.

Those matches were common in the 90s mostly due to the Gracie family issuing a public open challenge when they arrived. The funniest one I saw was some guy from a martial arts school in Huntington Beach get so angry that he literally grabbed the first thing he could find which was a moped and rode over and stood in the street screaming for a fight... lol. He got his wish. He also got his butt handed to him... lol. It was hectic for awhile. Lots of fun. Things are quiet today but they weren't always.

Anyways, the way my old seventh degree Okinawan karate teacher explained it to me, is that the vibrating palm differs from the iron palm in that it destroys by disrupting and displacing. So while the iron palm is a blunt force strike, the vibrating palm disrupts connective tissue, blood vessels, etc... around vital organ while also injuring in the same way the vital organ itself instead. Meaning, the guy in the video is only using it to break for demonstration purposes.

Now I've only had one person ever try it on me in a fight, and that was a crazy seventeen year old fresh-off-the-boat Cambodian straight out of a war in high school and like almost everyone else in the world he didn't have mastery of it. But don't be too quick to think you can just knock out everyone in the world or that there aren't a very few (very very very very few in my observation and experience) who have the mastery to RIP you with it.

Fortunately, they are extremely rare (despite every Tom, Dick, and Harry saying they know it) and also, from what I remember my old Sensei saying, of good character. He said this was a heirloom technique that was only passed on to those who demonstrated good character.

Vibrations cause catastrophic structural damage to things that don't give. (IE bricks) I'm not sure how well that correlates to human flesh as human flesh is designed to flex. The subject itself seems a bit controversial. I will say this though- if I have to fight someone all that is needed is a strike to the jaw. Once they go unconscious it's already game over.

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

I guess I'll end with a final word on this vibrating palm technique that I've never personally studied which has its origins in Chinese antiquity. I remember my old Sensei telling me that it can take you over and control you if you are not a strong person and train it too much.

My remembrance from when I was growing up and used to train classical martial arts before I became a Christian and switched to jiu-jitsu is that some of the classical martial arts incorporate occult practices. To me, this qualifies as one of them.

I remember my Sensei attempting to induce out of body experiences (e.g. astro travel) for the purposes of gaining knowledge of enemies and I also remember him having us sit in front of a door and try to discern what weapon would be the best choice for an armed opponent on the other side, for example.

Once I became a Christian; I felt a very real, palatable, discernible conviction to let all of that go and concentrate instead on living a healthy spiritual life rooted in Christian doctrine which is what God wanted for me in preparation for eternity.

Sports, fitness training, etc... was all good and so was Jiu-jitus which I loved BUT I felt God leading me away from even that into higher education, apologetics, and learning to be more of a help to people close to me.

I believe such techniques are rooted in the occult and though found in many traditional martial arts are completely at odds with God's kingdom and completely counter-productive to our spiritual welfare. We must avoid ALL things even associated with the kingdom of Satan and fully invest ourselves in the kingdom of God.

So, if you're going to train martial arts; avoid traditional martial arts which incorporate these techniques. MMA training is a sport and a great alternative, so is collegiate wrestling if you're in college or boxing if you have a local center near you and like that sport though it's not good for your IQ if you know what I mean... lol.

Or, alternatively, pick a non-combat sport. There are plenty to choose from. Or just exercise. But make sure what you choose glorifies God, is spiritually healthy for you, and makes your life better in some way. My two cents from what I've learned in five decades. Peace.

 

[BollWeevil]

It's not a matter of opinion or choice. God has been clear regarding this issue and if we choose to follow Jesus then it doesn't matter what we think or desire, the decision has been made for us. We are to regard others as more important than ourself. We are to love our enemies, do good to those who hate us. We are to follow Jesus' principles as when he was reviled, abused, falsely accused, & murdered yet did not revile in return, did not sin, spoke no deceit, and uttered no threats. Jesus is our example as He suffered therefore we should be prepared to suffer. We are not to return evil for evil. We are to sacrifice our life by turning the other cheek, allowing others to sue us to take our possessions and voluntary give them more than they request without retaliation, allow people to force us to do something and we not only oblige them yet do even more than what they request. We are to LOVE our enemies. All of these things are backed by biblical scripture, not man's thoughts and desires. Justifiable harm has no foundation in scripture. The principles of Jesus are clear and do not come close to justifiable harm, physical defense, or retaliation.