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I believe Paul is speaking of his life under a law of righteousness as a Pharisee in those verses. In ch6 he states if you are a slave to sin this leads to death, so in ch7 14 he would be condemning himself if he is speaking as a mature Christian. If a person in reality lives under a law of righteousness as a Christian, they would have great affinity with what Paul wrote in those verses.
I would add, there is a huge difference between the Paul of Rom 7:14-25 and sinless perfection, the Christian should be between the two, for sinless perfection, I agree with you will not be attained to while we are in the body of flesh
I would add, there is a huge difference between the Paul of Rom 7:14-25 and sinless perfection, the Christian should be between the two, for sinless perfection, I agree with you will not be attained to while we are in the body of flesh
>>>Obedience shown through faith and love.......
Philippians 2:5-11
5Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
>>>Disobedience shown through self righteousness.......
Luke 18:9-14
9And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: 10Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. 11The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. 12I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. 13And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. 14I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
Philippians 2:5-11
5Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
>>>Disobedience shown through self righteousness.......
Luke 18:9-14
9And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: 10Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. 11The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. 12I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. 13And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. 14I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
V
Since you referenced Hebrews, first we have to deal with that misunderstanding, then I will show you how Jesus taught eternal security, and faith through grace. Of course, I've already showed you verses today on this thread that prove that, but if you must, I will show you more.
The writer of Hebrews says just as you have claimed, but he says so much more than where you stopped, thus putting context to the verse and defeating the contention you make for it.
We see judgment brought down on those who "willingly received the knowledge of truth," here, so at first glance, I can understand how you would reach this conclusion. But it is dead wrong. First, "received" is not "believed." The word is the Greek lambano (lambano) and it means "to take, to take in, to receive, lay hold of," even "to take upon one's self." But that isn't acceptance of what is received, it is merely taking it in, as information, or knowledge. If the writer wanted to talk about "belief" he would have used the word pisteuo (pisteuo) which is nothing less than saving faith. There is a key verse Christ uses that word.
There is no other qualification there: No "obey." No "do good works." No "be baptized." All it says is pisteuo]]]], and that is all that is needed for salvation. Once we believe, Paul in his letter to the church at Ephesus says, we are sealed for redemption.
Do you see that, W/E? " ... given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession ... "
We are "God's own possession." How, by virtue of belief. that's all there is, there isn't any more. Now, I'll get back to why we do good works in a minute, but I want to return to Hebrews and the passage after that one I quoted above.
Look at the contrast between the one was "enlightened" here, and the one who was "enlightened" in Hebrews 6, who "receiv[ed] the knowledge of truth" in v. 26 above. The one in vv. 26-31 "trampled under foot the Son of God," rejected and despised Him, but in vv. 32-35, despite "great conflict of suffering" and "being made a public spectacle" through tribulation and trial. What did they do? They "received joyfully" the seizure of their property and joining in the suffering of other believers.
What was the difference, W/E? What was the difference?
It is faith, brother! FAITH! Not mere knowledge (v.26, epignosiß, epignosis) which does not save. And look at the result of that, W/E. " ... knowing that you have a for yourselves a better possession and a lasting one. Therefore, do not throw away your confidence (parresia, parrhesia = freedom, in speech, in belief, in assurance, in boldness), which has a great reward. [/indent]The writer is not talking about throwing away salvation, but throwing away the confidence to speak boldly of their assurance of salvation. Which we who reject your self-righteousness, your works-based salvation, your legalism, are doing. And as James teaches, our "works" are not "doing" or "not doing" for salvation, but because we have the faith God's grace has given us, and we naturally fall in step with our Savior in order to "walk in the works He prepared beforehand" (Ephesians 2:10).
The writer of Hebrews says just as you have claimed, but he says so much more than where you stopped, thus putting context to the verse and defeating the contention you make for it.
Hebrews 10, NASB
26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.
28 Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know Him who said, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY." And again, "THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE."
31 It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.
28 Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know Him who said, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY." And again, "THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE."
31 It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
We see judgment brought down on those who "willingly received the knowledge of truth," here, so at first glance, I can understand how you would reach this conclusion. But it is dead wrong. First, "received" is not "believed." The word is the Greek lambano (lambano) and it means "to take, to take in, to receive, lay hold of," even "to take upon one's self." But that isn't acceptance of what is received, it is merely taking it in, as information, or knowledge. If the writer wanted to talk about "belief" he would have used the word pisteuo (pisteuo) which is nothing less than saving faith. There is a key verse Christ uses that word.
John 6
47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes [pisteuo]]]]] has eternal life."
47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes [pisteuo]]]]] has eternal life."
There is no other qualification there: No "obey." No "do good works." No "be baptized." All it says is pisteuo]]]], and that is all that is needed for salvation. Once we believe, Paul in his letter to the church at Ephesus says, we are sealed for redemption.
Ephesians 1
13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation -having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.
13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation -having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.
Do you see that, W/E? " ... given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession ... "
We are "God's own possession." How, by virtue of belief. that's all there is, there isn't any more. Now, I'll get back to why we do good works in a minute, but I want to return to Hebrews and the passage after that one I quoted above.
Hebrews 10
32 But remember the former days, when *, after being enlightened, you endured a great conflict of sufferings,
33 partly by being made a public spectacle through reproaches and tribulations, and partly by becoming sharers with those who were so treated.
34 For you showed sympathy to the prisoners and accepted joyfully the seizure of your property, knowing that you have for yourselves a better possession and a lasting one.
35 Therefore, do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward.
32 But remember the former days, when *, after being enlightened, you endured a great conflict of sufferings,
33 partly by being made a public spectacle through reproaches and tribulations, and partly by becoming sharers with those who were so treated.
34 For you showed sympathy to the prisoners and accepted joyfully the seizure of your property, knowing that you have for yourselves a better possession and a lasting one.
35 Therefore, do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward.
Look at the contrast between the one was "enlightened" here, and the one who was "enlightened" in Hebrews 6, who "receiv[ed] the knowledge of truth" in v. 26 above. The one in vv. 26-31 "trampled under foot the Son of God," rejected and despised Him, but in vv. 32-35, despite "great conflict of suffering" and "being made a public spectacle" through tribulation and trial. What did they do? They "received joyfully" the seizure of their property and joining in the suffering of other believers.
What was the difference, W/E? What was the difference?
It is faith, brother! FAITH! Not mere knowledge (v.26, epignosiß, epignosis) which does not save. And look at the result of that, W/E. " ... knowing that you have a for yourselves a better possession and a lasting one. Therefore, do not throw away your confidence (parresia, parrhesia = freedom, in speech, in belief, in assurance, in boldness), which has a great reward. [/indent]The writer is not talking about throwing away salvation, but throwing away the confidence to speak boldly of their assurance of salvation. Which we who reject your self-righteousness, your works-based salvation, your legalism, are doing. And as James teaches, our "works" are not "doing" or "not doing" for salvation, but because we have the faith God's grace has given us, and we naturally fall in step with our Savior in order to "walk in the works He prepared beforehand" (Ephesians 2:10).
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V
21. I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. 22. For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: 23. But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25. I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
You're either walking in the flesh focused on yourself... or you're walking in the spirit with your faith in Jesus! You can't serve two masters. You're either a slave to your "wise" thinking or your mind is surrendered to Jesus.
Ask yourself: Am I still striving to be good? or am I at total rest in the Lord as He works out His purposes through me?
You're either walking in the flesh focused on yourself... or you're walking in the spirit with your faith in Jesus! You can't serve two masters. You're either a slave to your "wise" thinking or your mind is surrendered to Jesus.
Ask yourself: Am I still striving to be good? or am I at total rest in the Lord as He works out His purposes through me?
S
Continuing on from the OP...
14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; 15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works. -- 2 Tim. 3:14-17 (KJV)
The Holy Scriptures which Timothy knew from a child was the Hebrew Bible (The Torah-Law, Prophets, and Writings). Paul says they are able to make someone wise until salvation through faith in the Messiah; they are inspired by God; profitable for doctrine, reproof, correction, and instruction in righteousness; so that a man of God may be perfect and thoroughly equipped to do all good works. He said, "ALL SCRIPTURE." The NT writings, while they are Scripture and we recognize them as such, were largely unwritten at this time, and they were canonized later. At a minimum, "ALL SCRIPTURE" must include the Hebrew Bible, which was the common baseline of accepted, compiled Scripture at the time. At a maximum, it includes that which was currently written, later written, and later canonized. The Hebrew Bible being the minimum, we should accept that this includes the commands of the Torah-Law. I believe it is completely divisive of the passage for one to claim that VV.14-15 is talking about the Hebrew Bible, and VV.16-17 is talking only about the NT writings. No, the Hebrew Bible is all-encompassing to this passage. This is practically the only way that Timothy would have understood it in the absence of much of the writing and the canonization of the NT writings. Yes, Peter calls Paul's writing Scriptures, and maybe Timothy could have thought those were included as well, but the baseline here is the Hebrew Bible. There is no way that Timothy would have thought "ALL SCRIPTURE" to mean only the very limited Scriptures at the time, to which he unlikely had access to study. And Paul clearly defines the Holy Scriptures as that which he had access to growing up. That includes the commands of the Torah-Law. These commands offer profitable instruction. Paul is saying study them, learn them, correct yourself by them, and then do good works as a result of your equipping! (And also, this does not preclude the example of the Messiah and guiding of the Holy Spirit, but the focus here is the Hebrew Bible).
The whole letter actually flows quite nicely: Paul first gives the instruction to hold fast to sound words, he later identifies the profitability of the Hebrew Bible, and finally warns against straying from sound doctrine. The Hebrew Bible certainly contains sound words, is profitable, and is sound doctrine. Within this context, who would Timothy have understood as having "itchy ears?"
14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; 15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works. -- 2 Tim. 3:14-17 (KJV)
The Holy Scriptures which Timothy knew from a child was the Hebrew Bible (The Torah-Law, Prophets, and Writings). Paul says they are able to make someone wise until salvation through faith in the Messiah; they are inspired by God; profitable for doctrine, reproof, correction, and instruction in righteousness; so that a man of God may be perfect and thoroughly equipped to do all good works. He said, "ALL SCRIPTURE." The NT writings, while they are Scripture and we recognize them as such, were largely unwritten at this time, and they were canonized later. At a minimum, "ALL SCRIPTURE" must include the Hebrew Bible, which was the common baseline of accepted, compiled Scripture at the time. At a maximum, it includes that which was currently written, later written, and later canonized. The Hebrew Bible being the minimum, we should accept that this includes the commands of the Torah-Law. I believe it is completely divisive of the passage for one to claim that VV.14-15 is talking about the Hebrew Bible, and VV.16-17 is talking only about the NT writings. No, the Hebrew Bible is all-encompassing to this passage. This is practically the only way that Timothy would have understood it in the absence of much of the writing and the canonization of the NT writings. Yes, Peter calls Paul's writing Scriptures, and maybe Timothy could have thought those were included as well, but the baseline here is the Hebrew Bible. There is no way that Timothy would have thought "ALL SCRIPTURE" to mean only the very limited Scriptures at the time, to which he unlikely had access to study. And Paul clearly defines the Holy Scriptures as that which he had access to growing up. That includes the commands of the Torah-Law. These commands offer profitable instruction. Paul is saying study them, learn them, correct yourself by them, and then do good works as a result of your equipping! (And also, this does not preclude the example of the Messiah and guiding of the Holy Spirit, but the focus here is the Hebrew Bible).
The whole letter actually flows quite nicely: Paul first gives the instruction to hold fast to sound words, he later identifies the profitability of the Hebrew Bible, and finally warns against straying from sound doctrine. The Hebrew Bible certainly contains sound words, is profitable, and is sound doctrine. Within this context, who would Timothy have understood as having "itchy ears?"
W
geez... "nuclear reactor shut down in MN after fire alarm", thats where I am from.
Anyways, look guys. Time is short.
I am not accusing anyone of anything and this is not directed to anyone in particular.
But If someone is trusting in a sinners prayer for their salvation instead of actually walking with Christ...
You need to repent and quit your messing around, turn from your wickedness. You are not saved.
Bear fruit in keeping with repentance.
Read the teachings of Christ.
Learn to hate sin and walk by the Spirit in obedience and true love.
Love God with all your heart mind and body. Because
Even now the axe is laid to the root of the trees. Every tree therefore that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
Anyways, look guys. Time is short.
I am not accusing anyone of anything and this is not directed to anyone in particular.
But If someone is trusting in a sinners prayer for their salvation instead of actually walking with Christ...
You need to repent and quit your messing around, turn from your wickedness. You are not saved.
Bear fruit in keeping with repentance.
Read the teachings of Christ.
Learn to hate sin and walk by the Spirit in obedience and true love.
Love God with all your heart mind and body. Because
Even now the axe is laid to the root of the trees. Every tree therefore that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
V
I gave you the words of Christ. I can't help it that you don't like what they say. By your same token, Paul also clarifies the words of Christ, and where you read "works" I read "grace" and believe I can stand much more firmly on that, than can you on works.
I'm done here. I don't know why I bother.
I pray for your enlightenment, and your salvation, friend. I don't say that meanly, nor lightly.
I'm done here. I don't know why I bother.
I pray for your enlightenment, and your salvation, friend. I don't say that meanly, nor lightly.
M
No...Paul is not telling timothy to be under or to keep the law of Moses...
2Ti 1:5 When I call to remembrance the unfeigned (without hypocrisy) faith that is in thee, which dwelt first in thy grandmother Lois, and thy mother Eunice; and I am persuaded that in thee also.
2Ti 2:1 ¶ Thou therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus.
2 And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.
2Ti 2:8 ¶ Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:
9 Wherein I suffer trouble, as an evil doer, even unto bonds; but the word of God is not bound.
2Ti 3:10 ¶ But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience,
Now what doctrine do we know that Paul taught?
Ro 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
7 ¶ What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
2Ti 1:5 When I call to remembrance the unfeigned (without hypocrisy) faith that is in thee, which dwelt first in thy grandmother Lois, and thy mother Eunice; and I am persuaded that in thee also.
2Ti 2:1 ¶ Thou therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus.
2 And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.
2Ti 2:8 ¶ Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:
9 Wherein I suffer trouble, as an evil doer, even unto bonds; but the word of God is not bound.
2Ti 3:10 ¶ But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience,
Now what doctrine do we know that Paul taught?
Ro 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
7 ¶ What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
S
FYI, one proposed order and dates for the writings of the NT:
James - 50 A.D.
First Thessalonians - 52-53.
Second Thessalonians - 52-53.
Galatians - 55.
First Corinthians - 57.
Second Corinthians - 57.
Romans - 57-58.
Philippians - 62-63.
Colossians - 62-63.
Philemon - 62-63.
Ephesians - 62-63.
Luke - 63.
Acts - 64.
First Timothy - 65.
Titus - 65.
Second Timothy - 66.
Mark - 66.
Matthew - 67.
Hebrews - 67.
First Peter - 67-68.
Second Peter - 68.
Jude - 68.
Apocalypse - 68.
John - c. 85.
Epistles of John - 90-95.
2 Tim. is about 2/3's down the list, before 3 of the 4 gospels were written.
James - 50 A.D.
First Thessalonians - 52-53.
Second Thessalonians - 52-53.
Galatians - 55.
First Corinthians - 57.
Second Corinthians - 57.
Romans - 57-58.
Philippians - 62-63.
Colossians - 62-63.
Philemon - 62-63.
Ephesians - 62-63.
Luke - 63.
Acts - 64.
First Timothy - 65.
Titus - 65.
Second Timothy - 66.
Mark - 66.
Matthew - 67.
Hebrews - 67.
First Peter - 67-68.
Second Peter - 68.
Jude - 68.
Apocalypse - 68.
John - c. 85.
Epistles of John - 90-95.
2 Tim. is about 2/3's down the list, before 3 of the 4 gospels were written.