Sin-Nature Problem
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For the believer, sin comes from our flesh (sarks). The flesh of the believer is still in a process of change and progress to made into the image of God.
If John had meant in I John 1:8 that the believer still has the sin nature, that is what he would have said. He had the Greek vocabulary available to say that. He could have said - "if we say that we do not have a sin nature (or old man, or old nature)", but instead he wrote, "If we say that we have no sin . . ."
You can't just take the word "sin" and translate it as "sin nature".
Does all sin originate from the sin nature? Adam did not have a sin nature and he sinned. Lucipher did not have a "sin nature" and he sinned. So to ask a rhetorical question "Is it not true that sin must originate from the sin nature?" just muddies the waters of understanding.
Here is how I see it. When a person becomes converted, his old nature (sin nature) died with Christ, and a new nature (new man) is resurrected with Christ. This very "literally" is a new birth. The believer then does not have the old sin nature, but a new nature (new man). This is all at the deep level of the spirit where the Holy Spirit indwells the believer.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. [SUP]7 [/SUP]For he who has died has been freed from sin. [SUP]8 [/SUP]Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, Romans 6:6-8
But the believer does still have the flesh: and Paul writes a lot about the ongoing battle of the believer between the flesh and the spirit. And yes, our flesh does still have leftover remnants of "sin" from when we were unbelievers: that is we still may have fears, pride, envy, selfishness, lust, etc. that we need to overcome. These were strongholds or tendencies that we may have developed when we were unbelievers and still had the old nature (sin nature).
If John had meant in I John 1:8 that the believer still has the sin nature, that is what he would have said. He had the Greek vocabulary available to say that. He could have said - "if we say that we do not have a sin nature (or old man, or old nature)", but instead he wrote, "If we say that we have no sin . . ."
You can't just take the word "sin" and translate it as "sin nature".
Does all sin originate from the sin nature? Adam did not have a sin nature and he sinned. Lucipher did not have a "sin nature" and he sinned. So to ask a rhetorical question "Is it not true that sin must originate from the sin nature?" just muddies the waters of understanding.
Here is how I see it. When a person becomes converted, his old nature (sin nature) died with Christ, and a new nature (new man) is resurrected with Christ. This very "literally" is a new birth. The believer then does not have the old sin nature, but a new nature (new man). This is all at the deep level of the spirit where the Holy Spirit indwells the believer.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. [SUP]7 [/SUP]For he who has died has been freed from sin. [SUP]8 [/SUP]Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, Romans 6:6-8
But the believer does still have the flesh: and Paul writes a lot about the ongoing battle of the believer between the flesh and the spirit. And yes, our flesh does still have leftover remnants of "sin" from when we were unbelievers: that is we still may have fears, pride, envy, selfishness, lust, etc. that we need to overcome. These were strongholds or tendencies that we may have developed when we were unbelievers and still had the old nature (sin nature).
The goal is for Christ (Holy Spirit) to live through each believer but that occurs only whenever the believer yields to that leading of the Holy Spirit. Here is where the war comes into play. Our spirit/soul are at war with the things of the world and we do not always yield. We go our own way at times and thus we are conflicted.
I realize very well that this kind of discussion of the flesh, old man, sin nature, sin, and the new nature, and the spirit, and the heart, etc. etc. -- there are going to be different opinions and approaches.
Don't take my statements as saying you are "wrong" or "bad": I am just giving my opinion and what I think scripture says. I may come across as too black and white, but I don't mean it that way;
Iron sharpens iron: I find this discussion stimulating and want to learn from the rest of you here . . . so that we can better be soldiers for the King for the work of His Kingdom!
Don't take my statements as saying you are "wrong" or "bad": I am just giving my opinion and what I think scripture says. I may come across as too black and white, but I don't mean it that way;
Iron sharpens iron: I find this discussion stimulating and want to learn from the rest of you here . . . so that we can better be soldiers for the King for the work of His Kingdom!
Well we could look at many Scriptures which establish the biblical basis, but one should suffice (Gal 5:19-21):
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Here 17 things (or more) are listed as "the works of THE FLESH". And this is addressed to Christians, who may either walk (live) according to the flesh or according to the Spirit. So to continue to deny that the flesh, the old man, the sin nature, the old Adamic nature are all the same -- the source of sins in the believer -- means wilful rejection of what the Bible clearly teaches, plus an attempt to sow spiritual confusion.
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Here 17 things (or more) are listed as "the works of THE FLESH". And this is addressed to Christians, who may either walk (live) according to the flesh or according to the Spirit. So to continue to deny that the flesh, the old man, the sin nature, the old Adamic nature are all the same -- the source of sins in the believer -- means wilful rejection of what the Bible clearly teaches, plus an attempt to sow spiritual confusion.
The verses you posted very clearly give 17 things (sins) which are the "works of the flesh". Absolutely no disagreement with that. I agree completely. It is addressed to Christians who may either walk according to the flesh or according to the Spirit. I agree completely.
But where do you get from Galatians 5:19-21 that the flesh is the same thing as the sin nature/old man?
Please, I am not trying to be hard-nosed! I just don't see the text you used saying that?
If you want to accuse me of "wilful rejection of what the Bible clearly teaches, plus an attempt to sow spiritual confusion" - please at least show me clearly from the text what I am not seeing?
But where do you get from Galatians 5:19-21 that the flesh is the same thing as the sin nature/old man?
Please, I am not trying to be hard-nosed! I just don't see the text you used saying that?
If you want to accuse me of "wilful rejection of what the Bible clearly teaches, plus an attempt to sow spiritual confusion" - please at least show me clearly from the text what I am not seeing?
A lot of the problems we have coming to agreement is the terms defined differently.
My opinion is that the KJV with the concordances based on each word and separated even to the root words being the same, would stop this confusion if we all based study this way.
Speaking of us who don't have Greek or Hebrew studies behind us.
Am not KJV only but it certainly is a great help.
Flesh is our human nature. Nobleman gave the scripture where Paul explains in the first chapter of Galatians where having the understanding of the gospel isn't enough for the birthing. It's shown then in Galatians 1:15 where Paul teaches the power of the gospel that separated him from his mothers womb, the conversion experience, and the oneness then of union with Jesus.
That is seen in the Greek definition of being braided, intertwined within, our spirit with Holy Spirit, who is God. This too must become revelation to our very being for our profit.
Flesh, KJV is circumcised. Makes more sense looking at natural circumcision. Flesh cut off from 8 day old Jewish babies, or those joined to Israel, not natural born, had to have flesh cut off to be of the commonwealth of Israel.
Speaks much in the spiritual realm if you have the right terminology.
My opinion is that the KJV with the concordances based on each word and separated even to the root words being the same, would stop this confusion if we all based study this way.
Speaking of us who don't have Greek or Hebrew studies behind us.
Am not KJV only but it certainly is a great help.
Flesh is our human nature. Nobleman gave the scripture where Paul explains in the first chapter of Galatians where having the understanding of the gospel isn't enough for the birthing. It's shown then in Galatians 1:15 where Paul teaches the power of the gospel that separated him from his mothers womb, the conversion experience, and the oneness then of union with Jesus.
That is seen in the Greek definition of being braided, intertwined within, our spirit with Holy Spirit, who is God. This too must become revelation to our very being for our profit.
Flesh, KJV is circumcised. Makes more sense looking at natural circumcision. Flesh cut off from 8 day old Jewish babies, or those joined to Israel, not natural born, had to have flesh cut off to be of the commonwealth of Israel.
Speaks much in the spiritual realm if you have the right terminology.
Yes you have said some good thoughts. You know I'm not KJOnly either but I do like the translation better for my understanding. Your right, when we meet most everyone uses a KJv bible because that is what I teach from.
I wouldn't tell someone not to use something else of their preference but in a meeting it does help to all kind of be linked in this way.
I wouldn't tell someone not to use something else of their preference but in a meeting it does help to all kind of be linked in this way.
1. Are the works of the flesh not essentially the sins of the flesh? Are not all those items in Galatians sins? Absolutely.
3. Where does sin come from? Did we not see the Scripture that says that all sins come "from within" "out of the heart of man"? Absolutely.
4. So is it not crystal clear that the flesh and sin nature are simply different terms for the same thing? Absolutely
5. And did we not all inherit the sin nature (the old man) from Adam? Absolutely
3. Where does sin come from? Did we not see the Scripture that says that all sins come "from within" "out of the heart of man"? Absolutely.
4. So is it not crystal clear that the flesh and sin nature are simply different terms for the same thing? Absolutely
5. And did we not all inherit the sin nature (the old man) from Adam? Absolutely
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We should really stop using Gal 5:19-21 to justify that after conversion, we are still sinners ruled by the flesh and that the works of the flesh are source sins for a believer. Paul was not referring to the Believer here and is using similar compare and contrast language we find In Proverbs 13-17.
The largest mistake in interpretation of Gal 5:19-21 is the last part of Vs 21:
as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
This is how we discern that Paul was not talking about Believers, but rather unbelievers in Gal 5:19-21
The kingdom of God is not heaven or the new Jerusalem if we want to get picky.
Jesus said this about the Kingdom of God in Luke 17:21-
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
If the KOG is within you, then those who manifest works of the flesh are not in the Spirit and are still carnally minded and at enmity with God.
I am not saying we are perfect and never sin after conversion, because we will, but we should also understand we are raised into newness of life.
The largest mistake in interpretation of Gal 5:19-21 is the last part of Vs 21:
as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
This is how we discern that Paul was not talking about Believers, but rather unbelievers in Gal 5:19-21
The kingdom of God is not heaven or the new Jerusalem if we want to get picky.
Jesus said this about the Kingdom of God in Luke 17:21-
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
If the KOG is within you, then those who manifest works of the flesh are not in the Spirit and are still carnally minded and at enmity with God.
I am not saying we are perfect and never sin after conversion, because we will, but we should also understand we are raised into newness of life.
Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
This was my breakthrough. The Pastor we hosted for meetings sat down with me and just began to talk. Wonderful words to a thirsting heart to know who am I.
This was my breakthrough. The Pastor we hosted for meetings sat down with me and just began to talk. Wonderful words to a thirsting heart to know who am I.
What a pastor: Send him my way! Praise the Lord for men who know God and know how to pastor well!
When the new life of the new man working in our spirit empowered by the real presence of the Holy Spirit becomes real and active in us: Wow! What a blessing and what a life!
Then out of that spirit we can live a victorious life as Paul said in Galatians 2:20:
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me
When the new life of the new man working in our spirit empowered by the real presence of the Holy Spirit becomes real and active in us: Wow! What a blessing and what a life!
Then out of that spirit we can live a victorious life as Paul said in Galatians 2:20:
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me
[FONT="]Romans 3:23 [/FONT]
[SUP][FONT="]23 [/FONT][/SUP][FONT="]for [SUP]f[/SUP]all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Yes, we all fall short of God's Glory
[/FONT]
[FONT="]Romans 12:2 [/FONT]
[SUP][FONT="]2 [/FONT][/SUP][FONT="][SUP]c[/SUP]Do not be conformed to this world,[SUP]3[/SUP] but be transformed by [SUP]d[/SUP]the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may [SUP]e[/SUP]discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.[SUP]4[/SUP] [/FONT]
[FONT="][/FONT]
We are to daily renew our minds through prayer, bible study and quiet time with God in order that we will no longer fulfill the flesh. That is a task which should be our goal but that humanness part of us will resist.
[FONT="]2 Corinthians 3:18 [/FONT]
[SUP][FONT="]18 [/FONT][/SUP][FONT="]So all of us who have had that veil removed can see and reflect the glory of the Lord. And the Lord—who is the Spirit—makes us more and more like him as we are changed into his glorious image.
[/FONT]This is a "process" and as we yield to the Lord, we grow but that does not cancel out the warfare between the flesh and the spirit.
[SUP][FONT="]23 [/FONT][/SUP][FONT="]for [SUP]f[/SUP]all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Yes, we all fall short of God's Glory
[/FONT]
[FONT="]Romans 12:2 [/FONT]
[SUP][FONT="]2 [/FONT][/SUP][FONT="][SUP]c[/SUP]Do not be conformed to this world,[SUP]3[/SUP] but be transformed by [SUP]d[/SUP]the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may [SUP]e[/SUP]discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.[SUP]4[/SUP] [/FONT]
[FONT="][/FONT]
We are to daily renew our minds through prayer, bible study and quiet time with God in order that we will no longer fulfill the flesh. That is a task which should be our goal but that humanness part of us will resist.
[FONT="]2 Corinthians 3:18 [/FONT]
[SUP][FONT="]18 [/FONT][/SUP][FONT="]So all of us who have had that veil removed can see and reflect the glory of the Lord. And the Lord—who is the Spirit—makes us more and more like him as we are changed into his glorious image.
[/FONT]This is a "process" and as we yield to the Lord, we grow but that does not cancel out the warfare between the flesh and the spirit.