So post your points of how the gifts have ended
- Thread starter RickShafer
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
All of the gifts are for edification.
Not one, but all.
Now, let it not be said that Jesus would leave his body high and dry.
He said different. (John 16)
Is this the canon?
Please read,.........(does it sound like the canon?) - (or the Comforter)
Now, please quote about when 'that which is perfect has come'. - After Jesus sent His Holy Spirit no less.
- So you will say the canon is more perfect than the Spirit?
Please.....be inexact and meandering in your logic. (Because you will have to be)
Not one, but all.
Now, let it not be said that Jesus would leave his body high and dry.
He said different. (John 16)
Is this the canon?
Please read,.........(does it sound like the canon?) - (or the Comforter)
Now, please quote about when 'that which is perfect has come'. - After Jesus sent His Holy Spirit no less.
- So you will say the canon is more perfect than the Spirit?
Please.....be inexact and meandering in your logic. (Because you will have to be)
Let me ask you something. Why do you read the bible and get your information from it when you already have the Holy Spirit with all the gifts and understanding with it? I'll tell you why. Because you wouldn't have even known about any gifts of the Spirit without the bible to teach you of them to begin with. So you are taking His Word and the understanding and twisting the Truth to carry on your false doctrine and lead people from the Truth. You don't have understanding because your pride of trying to be someone with Spiritual power of Gifts has blinded you. Instead of asking us to show you scripture how the Spirits gifts have ceased, why don't you be brave and ask the Spirit to show you as only the Spirit is able to let you see, we can't and the Apostles aren't around anymore, that was 2000 some years ago.
Me - Red
"Sometimes you feel like a nut, sometimes you don't."
After you've accused me.....now prove your accusations.
Let me ask you something. Why do you read the bible and get your information from it when you already have the Holy Spirit with all the gifts and understanding with it?Because the Bible testifies of the Holy Spirit I'll tell you why. Because you wouldn't have even known about any gifts of the Spirit without the bible to teach you of them to begin with.Yea, as I just said.....
So you are taking His Word and the understanding and twisting the Truth to carry on your false doctrine and lead people from the Truth. No....Aaah,Ha,Ha,Ha You don't have understanding because your pride of trying to be someone with Spiritual power of Gifts has blinded you.Yea, that's it! Instead of asking us to show you scripture how the Spirits gifts have ceased, why don't you be brave and ask the Spirit to show you as only the Spirit is able to let you see, we can't and the Apostles aren't around anymore, that was 2000 some years ago.So the Holy Writ doesn't esplain it Lucy??
So you are taking His Word and the understanding and twisting the Truth to carry on your false doctrine and lead people from the Truth. No....Aaah,Ha,Ha,Ha You don't have understanding because your pride of trying to be someone with Spiritual power of Gifts has blinded you.Yea, that's it! Instead of asking us to show you scripture how the Spirits gifts have ceased, why don't you be brave and ask the Spirit to show you as only the Spirit is able to let you see, we can't and the Apostles aren't around anymore, that was 2000 some years ago.So the Holy Writ doesn't esplain it Lucy??
After you've accused me.....now prove your accusations.
Let me ask you something. Why do you read the bible and get your information from it when you already have the Holy Spirit with all the gifts and understanding with it?Because the Bible testifies of the Holy SpiritI'll tell you why. Because you wouldn't have even known about any gifts of the Spirit without the bible to teach you of them to begin with.Yea, as I just said.....
So you are taking His Word and the understanding and twisting the Truth to carry on your false doctrine and lead people from the Truth.No....Aaah,Ha,Ha,Ha You don't have understanding because your pride of trying to be someone with Spiritual power of Gifts has blinded you.Yea, that's it! Instead of asking us to show you scripture how the Spirits gifts have ceased, why don't you be brave and ask the Spirit to show you as only the Spirit is able to let you see, we can't and the Apostles aren't around anymore, that was 2000 some years ago.So the Holy Writ doesn't esplain it Lucy??"Sometimes you feel like a nut, sometimes you don't."
After you've accused me.....now prove your accusations.
Your answer to the question, "Because the Bible testifies of the Holy Spirit" doesn't fit at all.
When the Apostles received the Gifts of the HS they didn't have the new testament scriptures. They didn't have nothing but their word as witnesses. Who would believe them and then the Church dies out before it even gets started. So to start and build the first Churches, it was necessary for God to give them the Gifts and Powers of the HS to prove to people that God is Good and real. No one else could raise people from the dead like an Apostle. But they are gone now along with those special Gifts including speaking in tongues.
And you say, "because the Bible testifies of the Holy Spirit"...NO, that isn't why we have the Bible, in the first place the Gifts of the HS testify of the HS. The HS didn't have the new testament back then so how could something that didn't exist testify of the HS? You see? Your answer don't fit at all. The Gifts were there to kick start the Churches, but now 2000 years later we have documentation (proof) of the Gifts the Apostles were endowed with. That's what the Bible is. It isn't a book to read and then claim you have the proof of the HS by pretending you have the Gifts. The Bible is all the proof God needs for us Meat eating Christians and those who still are drinking Milk, are to go to Authorized Ordained Ministers to drink and not take it upon themselves to chew off more than they can swallow. That's why we have Ministers which have the Gift of the Spirit to teach.
When I pray an night when I go to bed, I try in my spirit, MY SPIRIT, to pray to the Father in Jesus name through the HS who communes with my spirit and takes my misguided words from my human standpoint and the HS talks with moanings and growning that can't be understood by Satin or me. It's Gods person speaking to Gods other person through Gods third person taking my prayer and turning it into the perfect prayer which becomes a good blessing to me and others that I pray for.
Sure we still have Spiritual Gifts, I'm just wondering if when the Anti-christ arrives (and your belief is still around) and raises people from the dead, how you will discern the differance in your Gifts from his, unless of a course The Lord has taken those Gifts He Gave the Apostles away from us and gave us a believable bible instead. Good luck... considering it says in the Word even the very Elect will be fooled.
You believe what you want and drink your milk and I'll pray that you can one day enjoy the meat.
Last edited:
R
this is a copy and paste of something i posted previously from my research on the history of certain spiritual gifts in the church...
in the early second century AD justin martyr wrote in his 'dialogue with trypho the jew' that healing and tongues and prophecy were common in the christian church...
in the late second century irenaeus...a student of john's student polycarp...wrote in his book 'against heresies' that many in the churches spoke in tongues and received prophecy and performed healings...
in the early third century origen wrote in his book 'against celsus' that the tongues were temporary and that they no longer happened...but he also reported that he was a witness to ongoing prophecy and healings...
in the late third century john chrysostom indicated in his 'homily on 1 corinthians 12' that tongues no longer occurred and admitted that the church's understanding of the nature of tongues had been obscured by the passage of time...chrysostom is also the first to use the term 'cessation'
in the early fourth century the church historian eusebius of caesarea...based on the writings i already mentioned and other reports that we no longer have...concluded in his 'ecclesiastical history' that the tongues had continued only through irenaeus' time...
in the mid fourth century epiphanius of salamis wrote in his anti heretical 'medicine chest' that prophecy was welcomed in the church...he argued against the montanists that the church had not rejected the spiritual gifts but only had denounced the montanists' charisma as not being authentic spiritual gifts...
in the late fourth century augustine wrote in his 'homily on 1 john' that the tongues were for the early church and were no longer present in his time...
in the early fifth century augustine wrote in his 'city of God' that miracles still occurred...but that they were not as widely reported as the earlier miracles...and he described several contemporary healings that he was aware of or even witnessed himself... most of the contemporary healings augustine tells about happened through prayer or through the sacraments...especially baptism... augustine also argued in the same work that although the miracles still happened they were no longer spiritually necessary because 'the whole world' had come to believe the gospel...
although the church fathers were fallible and often uncritical and prone to repeating hearsay...most of these post apostolic testimonies seem to reflect the widespread consensus of 'common knowledge' in the church regarding the gifts in their respective time periods...
from all of these ancient testimonies my conclusion is that the tongues continued into the late second century and then ceased... healings continued at least into the fifth century although by that time they were usually the result of prayer or sacrament...healing by direct command as in the new testament appears to have largely ceased by then... prophecy continued at least into the fourth century and it is not clear whether it ever fully ceased...
because of my research i take a position i call 'tentative cessationism'...i regard the ceasing of tongues and the ceasing of healing by direct command as a -historical- fact...though i don't have any -theological- reason for it being so...and consequently i am neutral on the question of whether or not these miraculous gifts could be revived and whether or not the pentecostal or charismatic movements represent such a revival in modern times
in the early second century AD justin martyr wrote in his 'dialogue with trypho the jew' that healing and tongues and prophecy were common in the christian church...
in the late second century irenaeus...a student of john's student polycarp...wrote in his book 'against heresies' that many in the churches spoke in tongues and received prophecy and performed healings...
in the early third century origen wrote in his book 'against celsus' that the tongues were temporary and that they no longer happened...but he also reported that he was a witness to ongoing prophecy and healings...
in the late third century john chrysostom indicated in his 'homily on 1 corinthians 12' that tongues no longer occurred and admitted that the church's understanding of the nature of tongues had been obscured by the passage of time...chrysostom is also the first to use the term 'cessation'
in the early fourth century the church historian eusebius of caesarea...based on the writings i already mentioned and other reports that we no longer have...concluded in his 'ecclesiastical history' that the tongues had continued only through irenaeus' time...
in the mid fourth century epiphanius of salamis wrote in his anti heretical 'medicine chest' that prophecy was welcomed in the church...he argued against the montanists that the church had not rejected the spiritual gifts but only had denounced the montanists' charisma as not being authentic spiritual gifts...
in the late fourth century augustine wrote in his 'homily on 1 john' that the tongues were for the early church and were no longer present in his time...
in the early fifth century augustine wrote in his 'city of God' that miracles still occurred...but that they were not as widely reported as the earlier miracles...and he described several contemporary healings that he was aware of or even witnessed himself... most of the contemporary healings augustine tells about happened through prayer or through the sacraments...especially baptism... augustine also argued in the same work that although the miracles still happened they were no longer spiritually necessary because 'the whole world' had come to believe the gospel...
although the church fathers were fallible and often uncritical and prone to repeating hearsay...most of these post apostolic testimonies seem to reflect the widespread consensus of 'common knowledge' in the church regarding the gifts in their respective time periods...
from all of these ancient testimonies my conclusion is that the tongues continued into the late second century and then ceased... healings continued at least into the fifth century although by that time they were usually the result of prayer or sacrament...healing by direct command as in the new testament appears to have largely ceased by then... prophecy continued at least into the fourth century and it is not clear whether it ever fully ceased...
because of my research i take a position i call 'tentative cessationism'...i regard the ceasing of tongues and the ceasing of healing by direct command as a -historical- fact...though i don't have any -theological- reason for it being so...and consequently i am neutral on the question of whether or not these miraculous gifts could be revived and whether or not the pentecostal or charismatic movements represent such a revival in modern times
B
Actually when Paul said:
Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away.
For we know in part and we prophesy in part;
but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away. -1 Corinthians 13:8-10 NASB
Paul said when the perfect comes, referring to Jesus, then there would be no need of gifts because he would be among us and they will cease. Gifts will still be here till the perfect comes, and the partial is taken away.
Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away.
For we know in part and we prophesy in part;
but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away. -1 Corinthians 13:8-10 NASB
Paul said when the perfect comes, referring to Jesus, then there would be no need of gifts because he would be among us and they will cease. Gifts will still be here till the perfect comes, and the partial is taken away.
D
Assuming all you info is correct (and I have no reason to doubt it) what conclusions can be made?
1) Perhaps there was a fading of the gifts until somehow the apparently ceased. (your position?)
2) Perhaps the rise of catholicism had a way of shunting the gifts of the Spirit as ritual replaced a vibrant relationship with God.
3) Perhaps the fires of the Holy Spirit dimmed as the gospel was watered down and sin increased.
4) Maybe we now see a new resurgence of the gifts as this age draws to a close and the Holy Spirit is being poured out by God.
So your empirical data does not prove a cessation and my prove other factors we do not know about. Scripturally, There is nothing to suggest a cessation of the gifts after a few hundred years or so.
1) Perhaps there was a fading of the gifts until somehow the apparently ceased. (your position?)
2) Perhaps the rise of catholicism had a way of shunting the gifts of the Spirit as ritual replaced a vibrant relationship with God.
3) Perhaps the fires of the Holy Spirit dimmed as the gospel was watered down and sin increased.
4) Maybe we now see a new resurgence of the gifts as this age draws to a close and the Holy Spirit is being poured out by God.
So your empirical data does not prove a cessation and my prove other factors we do not know about. Scripturally, There is nothing to suggest a cessation of the gifts after a few hundred years or so.