So post your points of how the gifts have ended

[presidente]

In regards to the second and third highlights, do you believe it is even possible to not have faith in Christ while in His heavenly, eternal and glorious presence ? Can "having faith" exist if it's opposite does not ...i.e... "not having faith" ? What value and substance can faith possibly have if there is no alternative to it ? And again, what is faith ?

Hebrews 11:1
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

You seem to think the only 'substance' that can be hoped for is the Second Coming or the resurrection or something along those lines. But we have faith in God for many other aspects of our lives and walk with him.

Zecharias, who met the infant Christ in the temple, had been told that he would not die until he saw him. Yet he did not drop dead immediately. He had time at least to speak a few words. Maybe he made it a few more weeks, months or years. If he believed God that he would see the Messiah in his lifetime, did he stop having faith after he saw Christ? Does that mean he had not more faith in God? Would he have no faith in God for other promises?

After Christ returns, we still have plenty to trust God for. We can have faith in God that things will continue throughout all eternity as He has promised.

You seem to be confusing faith with the object of our faith.

Of course, this topic has little to do with the gifts ending. Reading into the passage the idea that faith and hope cease at a certain point fit better with the idea of everything ceasing at the second coming, including tongues and prophecy.

 

[RickShafer]

[TABLE="width: 50%"]
[TR]
[TD="width: 70%"]First Thessalonians[/TD]
[TD="width: 30%"] 52 AD[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 70%"] Second Thessalonians[/TD]
[TD="width: 30%"] 52 AD[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 70%"]First Corinthians[/TD]
[TD="width: 30%"]57 AD[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 70%"] Second Corinthians[/TD]
[TD="width: 30%"] 57 AD[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 70%"] Galatians[/TD]
[TD="width: 30%"] 55-57 AD[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 70%"] Romans[/TD]
[TD="width: 30%"] 57-58 AD[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 70%"] Ephesians[/TD]
[TD="width: 30%"] 62 AD[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 70%"] Philippians[/TD]
[TD="width: 30%"] 62 AD[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 70%"] Colossians[/TD]
[TD="width: 30%"] 62 AD[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 70%"] Philemon[/TD]
[TD="width: 30%"] 63 AD[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 70%"] Hebrews[/TD]
[TD="width: 30%"] 64-65 AD[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 70%"] Titus
[/TD]
[TD="width: 30%"] 64-65 AD[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 70%"] First Timothy[/TD]
[TD="width: 30%"] 64-65 AD[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 70%"] Second Timothy[/TD]
[TD="width: 30%"] 66-67 AD[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Too early...I think if we read all Paul's epistle from beginning to the end, u see the difference. The things he has wriiten in the last epistles is much more matured than what we read in the earlier ones. Of course Paul was growing in the truth. God did not show him the truth one single day..

Aaahhhh, ha, ha, ha!!! (excuse me while I laugh at you)
So your subjugant claim is the written word is perfect,....is that it? - .........Yet you say the writer was left to his own devices and "growing in grace" while he wrote it?
- - - .....(Excuse me) - - ........Aaaahhhh, Ha, Ha, Ha!!!

You subvert your own claim logically. - - -Aaahhh, ha, ha, ha!!! - (Sorry again)

 

[RickShafer]

Why must I argue with these same 3 stones which hold to a dogma that the builder rejected so long ago? - (See Pharisee)

 

[Sanashankar]

Aaahhhh, ha, ha, ha!!! (excuse me while I laugh at you)
So your subjugant claim is the written word is perfect,....is that it? - .........Yet you say the writer was left to his own devices and "growing in grace" while he wrote it?
- - - .....(Excuse me) - - ........Aaaahhhh, Ha, Ha, Ha!!!

You subvert your own claim logically. - - -Aaahhh, ha, ha, ha!!! - (Sorry again)

When did i say "written word" is perfect. I dont deny it nor support it. But show me one thread in which i said " perfect" means the written word?

I don't laugh like the way u does, because i worry if my laugh can change into a cry very soon. Its abt God. Im little serious when it comes to God. Because day and nite i break my head reading and understanding the bible. I take so much pain to understand God, and i respect everybody's opinion, whether it is rite or wrong.

 

[Sanashankar]

And for ur information, Paul was growing in truth doesnt mean he was telling wrong things in the earlier epistles. Like i said, their is "milk" and their is "solid food". Both milk and solid food are perfect, it is God breathed words.

 

[presidente]

Sanashankar,Your dating of the epistles puts Galatians after the writing of the letters to the Thessalonians. I disagree. I agree with the scholars who put it before the council of Jerusalem. There is a line of scholarship in the 1800's which argues that Paul and James were at odds with one another. Some people would try to make Paul's visit to Jerusalem in Acts the Jerusalem council and try to make Paul at odds with James teaching on Gentiles. This unnecessarily puts the apostles at odds with each other.

Part of the problem is that scholars in the 1800's did not realize that some of the so-called 'firt missionary journey' churches mentioned in Acts 13-14 were actually in the Roman province of Galatia. The border of Galatia was moved up from the coast and the southern portion was included in another province within a couple of centuries after Paul, and some of the scholars only knew of that geographical division. I've read commentaries that Paul's visit to Galatia must have been made some time not mentioned in scripture. There is a tradition that he went way up to Ankara. It doesn't make as much sense though. Right after Acts 15, Paul takes the letter from the churches to the churches of Galatia. They were already in existence before Acts 15.

The meeting with Peter, John, and James the Lord's brother does not seem to be a good match for the Acts 15 event. If he had a letter from the apostles about Gentiles indicating the other apostles did not perceive the Spirit required them to be Jewish, why would he not mention it? The liberal theologians may want to make him oppose the letter, but Acts shows he delivered it, even to the Galatians.

No, the south Galatia theory makes a lot more sense. This is the scenario I see. Paul was in Antioch. Peter came and stopped eating with the Gentiles when some James sent some conservative Jewish folks. Peter rebuked him. Paul either hadn't gone to Galatia yet or had come back and hadn't gone up to Jerusalem for Acts 15. Paul writes this letter to the Galatians. Then a group of Gentile circumcision promoters show up in Antioch. Paul and Barnabas, who were already companions from their first journey argue with them. God to Jerusalem. Then they decide to read the letter to the churches. They split up over what to do about Mark. Barnabas and Mark go to Cyprus. Silas, who went to Antioch after the Jerusalem council, goes with Paul on the so-called 'Second missionary journey.'

Anyway, my point is that Paul got sick EARLY in his ministry.

Galatians 4
13 As you know, it was because of an illness that I first preached the gospel to you, 14 and even though my illness was a trial to you, you did not treat me with contempt or scorn. Instead, you welcomed me as if I were an angel of God, as if I were Christ Jesus himself. 15 Where, then, is your blessing of me now? I can testify that, if you could have done so, you would have torn out your eyes and given them to me.
(NIV)
(emphasis mine)

Even in your list, his ministry in Thessalonica is still pretty early. Galatians is written before his ministry in Ephesus where he does all the great miracles in your chronology as well.

Lots of people were healed through Paul, but sometimes he or his companions had to deal with illness whether early in his ministry or late in his ministry. Sometimes God heals the slow 'natural' way.

 

[Sanashankar]

Thanks for that information brother. I actually have not studied abt the epistles. I just know that Corinthians was written earlier. I have saved ur thread. Now im thinking of studying abt that topic. Do u have any website to share.

God bless u