Some help and civility please...rapture??

[Ahwatukee]

The blessed hope is the second coming of Christ. As for popularity historic premillenialism is still the majority view of most Christians around the world. It may not be popular in your neck of the woods but then true Christianity as a whole has never won a popularity contest anywhere in the world since its inception.

The blessed hope is not the when Christ returns to the earth to end the age! For before that event takes place, the wrath of God in the form of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments must take place, which according to your interpretation, that would put the living church through the entire wrath of God.

So tell us, how could it be a blessed hope if believers were to first have to go through God's wrath before being gathered? Likewise, how could we comfort each other with the hope of being gathered if what you say were true.

I continue to say it, you and others do not understand the severity and magnitude of God's wrath which is approaching very quickly. If you did you would not be insisting that God is going to protect the church in the midst of His wrath being poured out.

 

[Bogadile]

The blessed hope is the second coming of Christ. As for popularity historic premillenialism is still the majority view of most Christians around the world.

Do not like to argue but:
The biggest church in the world is the catholic church, they are amillennial, so is the eastern orthodox, lutheran and most mainline protestants.

The only groups I know who are post-trib premill are certain independent baptists, some charismatics (Most of them are pre-trib also) and the usual suspects of SDAs and church of God people.

 

[unobtrusive]

It seems to me that left behind is abandoned, right behind is following closely, and between them is cleavage.

That's a nice way to say what you're really thinking. LOL

 

[Allenbee]

I have an idea to help sort this mess out !

How about a new thread headed; "Pretrib,midtrib,postrib and Exodus today".

Now on this thread supporters of any of those 4 end time beliefs, tells the STORY of their belief, according to these chapter headings. These are listed as they are to occur I think, but open to change, help, or suggestions.

1; My present belief is : ........................

2; How to prepare for my belief : ....................
(Now apart from our faith and prayer, here we explain what we do about our soon to be worthless possessions).Math 25;14 all.

3; How we survive the great tribulation : ........................
(easy for pre trib..."we wont be there"... they believe.

4: Where are we at our Lords return : ....................
( easy for pre trib..."on our horses with the lord" to come and kill us "infidels".) Haha

5: Where are we during God's WRATH: .........................

6: Who are the righteous on earth with our Lord for the Millennium : ..................................




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I think that will prove to be very useful, interesting, and a great tool for the undecided.

We want to help each other as brothers in our Lord...don't we ?

Your thoughts please.

 

[unobtrusive]

I have an idea to help sort this mess out !

How about a new thread headed; "Pretrib,midtrib,postrib and Exodus today".

Now on this thread supporters of any of those 4 end time beliefs, tells the STORY of their belief, according to these chapter headings. These are listed as they are to occur I think, but open to change, help, or suggestions.

1; My present belief is : ........................

2; How to prepare for my belief : ....................
(Now apart from our faith and prayer, here we explain what we do about our soon to be worthless possessions).Math 25;14 all.

3; How we survive the great tribulation : ........................
(easy for pre trib..."we wont be there"... they believe.

4: Where are we at our Lords return : ....................
( easy for pre trib..."on our horses with the lord" to come and kill us "infidels".) Haha

5: Where are we during God's WRATH: .........................

6: Who are the righteous on earth with our Lord for the Millennium : ..................................




-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I think that will prove to be very useful, interesting, and a great tool for the undecided.

We want to help each other as brothers in our Lord...don't we ?

Your thoughts please.

Here's my thoughts...

"But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father." (Mark 13:32)

This truth reveals what isn't revealed. This leaves the door wide open for NOTHING BUT suppositions with absolutely no edification.

Suggestion...
Get over it, and talk about something that God has revealed and belongs to us, rather than try to guess what He hasn't.

"The secret things belong unto the Lord our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law." (Deuteronomy 29:29)

 

[Bladerunner]

I was using the term Rapture according to its common misconception on this site ie the pre Trib rapture. I believe in the resurrection of the dead at the one second coming of Christ as stated in Scripture. That is the blessed hope of all Christians.
My emphasis in the post is the good news of salvation because that is what believers are promised. In a number of posts on this subject I get a strong impression that fundamental Christian belief in Christ is not enough for some but belief in the Pre Trib rapture is everything. The fear of being ''left behind'' seems to be the driving force behind the whole teaching.

Ah,,,but you have to throw out the book of Revelation to get to the Second coming....There are many Prophecies that have to happen before even Daniel's 70th week can start....

 

[Bladerunner]

The biggest problem with the Rapture and all its associated teachings is that it can become a fixation with some people. Our focus should be on Christ and his Gospel not The Antichrist, Third temples and Tribulation. Christ didnt tell his disciples to stand around and hang on for the rapture he told them to go into the world and preach the gospel to all nations. The Gospel is good news. Much of the Rapture teachings consist of gloom and despair maintained and fed by fear. Salvation takes a back seat and is replaced by a diet of sensationalist drivel like the Left Behind Series.

The good news is that Christ died for us and rose again on the third day. All who believe have eternal life.


ABSOLUTELY TANAKH spot on, my view exactly as THAT is the truth.

Jesus taught the KINGDOM OF GOD, and over 100 times in Math, Mark, luke and John, and all the parables.
AND... this is Satan's worst nightmare, as the KINGDOM OF GOD is the END of his evil kingdom (Babylon).

So... through the churches , Satan shifts the focus OFF the Kingdom of God, by miss-using the GRACE of GOD.

Almost all the Christians I meet are going to heaven, have everlasting life, and they love the Lord so much. So sweet.

If I tell them about the Kingdom of God on earth...I get a sympathetic smile and the assurance they will pray for me.

Well...it is many misled Christians that are told; "Get away from me you workers of lawlessness".
Happily "eating and drinking and marrying" IN satans kingdom...until "we" will be taken to heaven.

Well at least you part of it right?

 

[Bladerunner]

Rv 10:5-7
5 And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven,
6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:
7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
KJV


Rv 11:15
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

This seems to indicate, at least to me, that everything (bowl judgements included) mentioned after the seventh trumpet happens outside of time. it is all one great instant.

If I am reading you post correctly, you are suggesting that the seals, trumpets and Bowls are all parallel to each other thus all happen at one time. ??????

 

[Adstar]

There is no "first resurrection" after the GT. Rev 20 is referring to the first resurrection that already happened. In fact,that first resurrection is in 1 thes 4.

What you failed to see,is that the dead rise first. That is simply a fact. Post trib doctrine attempts to change that fact. post trib doctrine is a PARTIAL VERSE doctrine.
Rev 14 has a gathering DURING THE GT. That alone debunks any hope for a post trib gathering.

The dead saints rising first has no bearing on my points.. Yes the dead saints will rise first.. Just before the living saints will be raptured.. This has nothing to do with the rapture happening or the rapture timing..

And the two different Resurrection one before the 1000 years and one after the 1000 years is clearly revealed in the Book of Revelation chapter 20..

 

[TMS]

Throughout the Counter Reformation, preterism and futurism diverted attention away from prophecies identifying the Roman Church as Babylon and the papal system as the Antichrist.


TheOxford Handbook of Eschatology says that futurism“argues that Revelation looks beyond the first century to the periodimmediately before the end times. Thus the book was not written for those whoreceived it, but for those living much later. Jesuit scholars after theReformation refined this approach to prove that current attempts to identifythe Pope as the Antichrist could not possibly be true since the Antichrist willnot be revealed until far into the future, just before the Parousia (Christ’sSecond Coming)."

These Jesuits are easily found in history as forming the theories that are widely taught today, but very far from biblical truth.
Be careful with the pillars that futurism has set up, like the secret rapture, the last week of the 70 week prophesy(Daniel 9) being moved, the millennium and who the Antichrist is. Like a bridge with many pillars if you take away one part the whole structure falls. So it is a messy work to try and disprove any part of the futuristic theory.

 

[tanakh]

Ah,,,but you have to throw out the book of Revelation to get to the Second coming....There are many Prophecies that have to happen before even Daniel's 70th week can start....

Only if you believe that the seventeeth week hasn't started and believe in there is a 2000 year plus gap in Daniel invisible to the most powerful of Microscopes

 

[tanakh]

Ah,,,but you have to throw out the book of Revelation to get to the Second coming....There are many Prophecies that have to happen before even Daniel's 70th week can start....

Only if you interpret it the way you do and believe that there is this invisible gap between Daniels 69th and 70th week

 

[Ahwatukee]

Only if you interpret it the way you do and believe that there is this invisible gap between Daniels 69th and 70th week

Well, the fact that there has been no fulfillment of Dan.9:27 from the time that Jesus quoted it as a future event, until the destruction of the temple, then it must still be a future event and that because all prophecy must be fulfilled.

After the Messiah was cut off at the 69th seven, God put a hold on the last seven years to be fulfilled in conjunction with the end of the age and began to build His church. Once the church has been completed, the Lord will gather the church and will pick up right where He left off with Israel, complete with temple and sacrifices.

 

[Allenbee]

Suggestion...
Get over it, and talk about something that God has revealed and belongs to us, rather than try to guess what He hasn't.

OK... how about "keep on the watch" or "but know this,if the master of the house house had known in which part of the night the thief was coming, he would have stayed awake" or especially all the "keep awake" signs at Math 24, because this generation(of believers), will not pass away until all these things occur.

Anyway my proposal IS NOT about the day and the hour, but seeing that we all believe our Lord is coming, how do we be a prepared people... AS INSTRUCTED ? Fair enough isn't it ?

So... Just tell the STORY as your study has led you to believe.

like here's my story of the Bible for a child.

God made this beautiful earth for us to share, free food and all the animals are our pets. Isn't that wonderful ? Then bad guys came along and look at the mess today.
Sooooo....God sent Jesus to help keep us good among the bad guys, and Jesus said he will come again...and no more bad guys. So God is cool huh, and we will share the earth again cause that's what HE made it for.

And here's what I was told as a child;
God made this beautiful earth for us to share, free food and all the animals are our pets. Isn't that wonderful ? Then Jesus came and even if you die you go to heaven.


So mister...just tell the story of how to be a prepared people "keeping on the watch" as NO ONE knows the day or the hour...NOR do we need to.

 

[tanakh]

Do not like to argue but:
The biggest church in the world is the catholic church, they are amillennial, so is the eastern orthodox, lutheran and most mainline protestants.

The only groups I know who are post-trib premill are certain independent baptists, some charismatics (Most of them are pre-trib also) and the usual suspects of SDAs and church of God people.

All main denominations recognize the Nicene Creed as a summary of Christian belief.

Included in the creed are the statements that Christ sits at the right hand of the Father
He shall come with glory to judge both the living and the dead whose kingdom shall have no end
We look for the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come.

 

[heartofdavid]

The dead saints rising first has no bearing on my points.. Yes the dead saints will rise first.. Just before the living saints will be raptured.. This has nothing to do with the rapture happening or the rapture timing..

And the two different Resurrection one before the 1000 years and one after the 1000 years is clearly revealed in the Book of Revelation chapter 20..

It does if "first" actually means first.

How can the dead rise "first" AFTER the rev 14 gathering???

This has been overlooked for years.

I stumbled across it in my readings about 2 years ago.

Post trib is rapture is an impossibly

 

[heartofdavid]

Throughout the Counter Reformation, preterism and futurism diverted attention away from prophecies identifying the Roman Church as Babylon and the papal system as the Antichrist.


TheOxford Handbook of Eschatology says that futurism“argues that Revelation looks beyond the first century to the periodimmediately before the end times. Thus the book was not written for those whoreceived it, but for those living much later. Jesuit scholars after theReformation refined this approach to prove that current attempts to identifythe Pope as the Antichrist could not possibly be true since the Antichrist willnot be revealed until far into the future, just before the Parousia (Christ’sSecond Coming)."

These Jesuits are easily found in history as forming the theories that are widely taught today, but very far from biblical truth.
Be careful with the pillars that futurism has set up, like the secret rapture, the last week of the 70 week prophesy(Daniel 9) being moved, the millennium and who the Antichrist is. Like a bridge with many pillars if you take away one part the whole structure falls. So it is a messy work to try and disprove any part of the futuristic theory.

Actually,since historicists fail in all that HAS TO BE FUTURE,I think maybe it is they that are the ones with a mess

 

[heartofdavid]

The blessed hope is not the when Christ returns to the earth to end the age! For before that event takes place, the wrath of God in the form of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments must take place, which according to your interpretation, that would put the living church through the entire wrath of God.

So tell us, how could it be a blessed hope if believers were to first have to go through God's wrath before being gathered? Likewise, how could we comfort each other with the hope of being gathered if what you say were true.

I continue to say it, you and others do not understand the severity and magnitude of God's wrath which is approaching very quickly. If you did you would not be insisting that God is going to protect the church in the midst of His wrath being poured out.

Post trib rapture as well as historicist view are DOA. Both have been THOROUGHLY DEBUNKED here as well as in other forums.

I coast through the debate. Like shooting ducks in a barrel

 

[TMS]

Well, the fact that there has been no fulfillment of Dan.9:27 from the time that Jesus quoted it as a future event, until the destruction of the temple, then it must still be a future event and that because all prophecy must be fulfilled.

After the Messiah was cut off at the 69th seven, God put a hold on the last seven years to be fulfilled in conjunction with the end of the age and began to build His church. Once the church has been completed, the Lord will gather the church and will pick up right where He left off with Israel, complete with temple and sacrifices.

In which week did the sacrifices stop? In which week did Jesus die?

 

[TMS]

Actually,since historicists fail in all that HAS TO BE FUTURE,I think maybe it is they that are the ones with a mess

Some prophesy has yet to be fulfilled but some has happened or is happening. Why is that so messy.
I don't claim to know exactly how it will all happen but when it does i can know that it was God that prophesied it.