Some help and civility please...rapture??

[tanakh]

In which week did the sacrifices stop? In which week did Jesus die?

The Messiah was not cut off in the 69th week. In Daniel 9:26 it says --


After the 62 weeks an annointed one shall be cut off and have nothing.

If the first set of seven weeks, are added to the sixty two weeks you get a sum of 69 weeks. The verse reads that messiah is cut off after the sixty two weeks. You dont need to be a genius to work out that he must have been cut off in the middle of the following seventieth week

 

[Ahwatukee]

The Messiah was not cut off in the 69th week. In Daniel 9:26 it says --


After the 62 weeks an annointed one shall be cut off and have nothing.

If the first set of seven weeks, are added to the sixty two weeks you get a sum of 69 weeks. The verse reads that messiah is cut off after the sixty two weeks. You dont need to be a genius to work out that he must have been cut off in the middle of the following seventieth week

7 sevens = restore and rebuild Jerusalem

62 sevens = at the end of which Messiah would be cut off (crucified)

7 seven year periods, with 62 seven year period following, equaling 69 sevens, at the end of which the Messiah was crucified. If you do the math from 446 BC when the decree was given by King Artaxerxes to restore and rebuild Jerusalem at Nehemiah's request with the 69 sevens or 483 years, it brings you to 37 AD for the Messiah being crucified. That number of course is without taking the calendar changes into consideration. But the point is that it brings us right in the ball park of when the Messiah was cut off.

The scripture has the Messiah crucified at the 69th seven and prior to on-set of that last seven years, which is yet to be fulfilled.

Jesus is not the "He" of Dan.9:27.

 

[Enow]

Rapture is not a Biblical term. Nevertheless, we will be taken up into the clouds with Jesus Christ when the time comes. With that said, Jesus made it clear that this would happen after the tribulation.

Notice the relationships between these three scripture references.

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." (Matthew 24:29-31)

Heaven = οὐρανός through the idea of elevation by extension, implication, happiness, power, eternity; specially, the Gospel (Christianity).

"And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:" (Ephesians 2:6)

"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17)

"Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."
(1 Corinthians 15:51-52)

Immediately after the tribulation. Scripture speaks for itself.

There is tribulation and then there is the great tribulation. The great tribulation is designated as...

Matthew 24:[SUP]10 [/SUP]And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.[SUP] 11 [/SUP]And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.[SUP]12 [/SUP]And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.[SUP]13 [/SUP]But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

That above is the tribulation we are in now.

Matthew 24:[SUP]14 [/SUP]And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

That above will happen at the pre trib rapture event. The first angel with the everlasting gospel of the three angels that shall set up the hour of temptation to try all upon the earth after the pre trib rapture as Revelation 14th chapter testify of.

Revelation 14:[SUP]6 [/SUP]And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,[SUP] 7 [/SUP]Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.[SUP] 8 [/SUP]And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.[SUP] 9 [/SUP]And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,[SUP] 10 [/SUP]The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:[SUP] 11 [/SUP]And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Then the rest of this reference in Matthew cited below is about the great tribulation after the pre trib rapture.

Matthew 24:[SUP]15 [/SUP]When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand[SUP]16 [/SUP]Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:[SUP] 17 [/SUP]Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:[SUP] 18 [/SUP]Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.[SUP] 19 [/SUP]And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days![SUP] 20 [/SUP]But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:[SUP] 21 [/SUP]For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.[SUP]22 [/SUP]And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Jesus was answering more than one question put to Him from His disciples and He was not giving His answers in chronological order, but going back and forth a lot among those questions put to Him.

So your reference is back to citing only the regular tribulation that we are all under now which is why all believers need Him to prepare them to be found abiding in Him & ready to go before the Bridegroom comes when afterwards a fire and a subsequent great tribulation will follow as a result.

Your Ephesians 2:6 proves that the other references of being taken to meet the Lord in the air is to sit down at the Marriage Supper in Heaven. So in no way is there a mid nor a post rapture event when at His coming, He is warring against the army moving against Jerusalem. Hardly a time for a sitting down event at the Marriage Supper when He is on earth to defeat Satan & put him in the pit for a thousand year.

 

[Nehemiah6]

62 sevens = at the end of which Messiah would be cut off (crucified)

No doubt you meant 63 sevens since 70 - 63 = 7. And that is the correct interpretation historically and biblically. Daniel's 70th week is yet future.

 

[Nehemiah6]

There is tribulation and then there is the great tribulation.

Correct. Daniel's 70th week can be split into two equal divisions:

Tribulation = first 3 1/2 years

Great Tribulation = last 3 1/2 years (which would be shortened as foretold by Christ)

 

[GaryA]

So what you are telling us is that the Blessed Hope is actually a time of weeping, and wailing, and mourning, and severe judgments, since that is exactly what the second coming of Christ entails! That is quite a Blessed Hope.

Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

The Blessed Hope is what born-again believers have to look forward to at the Second Coming of Christ.

What you are emphasizing here is what the lost evil world has to look forward to at the Second Coming of Christ.

 

[Muzungu256]

so have we decided yet how many times Jesus returns? once or twice????

 

[GaryA]

How can the dead rise "first" AFTER the rev 14 gathering???

Revelation 14:14-20 is describing events of the Second Coming of Christ.



Revelation 14:14-16 is describing the Rapture.

Revelation 14:17-20 is describing the Wrath of God.

The statement quoted above is an incorrect assumption.

The dead do not rise AFTER it; rather, they rise DURING it.

 

[shrume]

so have we decided yet how many times Jesus returns? once or twice????

He will return twice. 1) to gather the Christian church (AKA the rapture), and we will meet him in the air and be with him in heaven for 7 years while the trib plays out on earth, and 2) at the end of the trib he will return to earth where he will fight and win Armageddon and then set up the millennial kingdom.

 

[GaryA]

7 sevens = restore and rebuild Jerusalem

62 sevens = at the end of which Messiah would be cut off (crucified)

7 seven year periods, with 62 seven year period following, equaling 69 sevens, at the end of which the Messiah was crucified. If you do the math from 446 BC when the decree was given by King Artaxerxes to restore and rebuild Jerusalem at Nehemiah's request with the 69 sevens or 483 years, it brings you to 37 AD for the Messiah being crucified. That number of course is without taking the calendar changes into consideration. But the point is that it brings us right in the ball park of when the Messiah was cut off.

The scripture has the Messiah crucified at the 69th seven and prior to on-set of that last seven years, which is yet to be fulfilled.

Jesus is not the "He" of Dan.9:27.

The decree was in 457 B.C.



The decree went forth to rebuild the city. ( 457 B.C. )

The wall of the city is built in 52 days. ( 445 B.C. )

The rebuilding of the city ends 52 years after the decree went forth. ( 405 B.C. )


This was the starting point for the 62 weeks referred to in Daniel 9:26. ( middle of the 8th week )


Christ is crucified 62 x 7 = 434 years after the rebuilding of the city ends. ( 30 A.D. - Remember that there is no year 0. )

Daniel's 70 weeks end 70 x 7 = 490 years after the decree went forth. ( 34 A.D. )

'Times of the Jews' ends; 'Times of the Gentiles' begins



Jesus is absolutely most certainly definitely the 'he' in Daniel 9:27.

 

[Muzungu256]

He will return twice. 1) to gather the Christian church (AKA the rapture), and we will meet him in the air and be with him in heaven for 7 years while the trib plays out on earth, and 2) at the end of the trib he will return to earth where he will fight and win Armageddon and then set up the millennial kingdom.

now all u gotta do is get rid of:

hebrews 9:28
So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

or is this yet another separate event because it says for salvation? but forgets to mention thee third coming??? sekkluud mon this is a complicated system

 

[shrume]

Jesus is absolutely most certainly definitely the 'he' in Daniel 9:27.

No.

Dan 9:
26) And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

27) And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

The "he" in v27 refers back to "the prince that shall come" in v26. The prince that shall come is the antichrist, whose coming is still future.

 

[GaryA]

No doubt you meant 63 sevens since 70 - 63 = 7. And that is the correct interpretation historically and biblically. Daniel's 70th week is yet future.

He is counting 62 weeks starting from the end of the 1st week.

( But, that is not the point in time that the prophecy says the 62 weeks are actually supposed to be counted from... )

 

[GaryA]

No.

.
.
.

The "he" in v27 refers back to "the prince that shall come" in v26. The prince that shall come is the antichrist, whose coming is still future.

No.
.....
.....

 

[shrume]

now all u gotta do is get rid of:

hebrews 9:28
So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

or is this yet another separate event because it says for salvation? but forgets to mention thee third coming??? sekkluud mon this is a complicated system

I do not have to "get rid" of Heb 9:28. As far as Christians are concerned, he is coming once more to get us. Once that happens, we will be with him forever, including when he returns to earth at the end of the trib.

 

[shrume]

No.
.....
.....

Yes!

(we're accomplishing a lot, aren't we? )

 

[GaryA]

Yes!

(we're accomplishing a lot, aren't we? )

No!

( we are not )

 

[dcontroversal]

In other words, there shall be no more delay regarding the sounding of the 7th trumpet, not the cessation of time. The Interlinear has it, "no longer will there be a delay."



.

The above cannot be true because the announcement is made as the 7th trump begins to sound and is tied directly to time....all three things listed equate to TIME running out for the saved, lost and kingdoms of the world.....

 

[GaryA]

OOPS!

He is counting 62 weeks starting from the end of the 1st week.

end of the 7th week.

 

[MarcR]

If I am reading you post correctly, you are suggesting that the seals, trumpets and Bowls are all parallel to each other thus all happen at one time. ??????

Close but not quite right.

What I am saying is that EVERYTHING after the seventh trumpet happens outside of time. Eternity is essentially one unending instant.