Some help and civility please...rapture??

[Allenbee]

OK... so the disagreement just goes on and on, but NOBODY wants it sorted out it seems.

I have an idea to help sort this mess out !

How about a new thread headed; "Pretrib,midtrib,postrib and Exodus today".

Now on this thread supporters of any of those 4 end time beliefs, tells the STORY of their belief, according to these chapter headings. These are listed as they are to occur I think, but open to change, help, or suggestions.

So I will fill it in for you starting with Pretrib.

1; My present belief is :

Pretrib rapture.

2; How to prepare for my belief :
(Now apart from our faith and prayer, here we explain what we do about our soon to be worthless possessions).Math 25;14 all.

Well... Jesus said we must sell everything we own and follow Him. Math 19; 16-24

3; How we survive the great tribulation :

"we wont be there".

4: Where are we at our Lords return :

( easy for pre trib..."on our horses with the lord" and come with him to kill us "infidels".)

5: Where are we during God's WRATH: .

Same as Q4.

6: Who are the righteous on earth with our Lord for the Millennium :

Only us.

So that's MY understanding of a pretrib rapture, BECAUSE nobody will explain the STORY.



NEXT...midtrib, the SIGN of our Lord's presence and a rapture for chosen ones ???

 

[Enow]

OK... so the disagreement just goes on and on, but NOBODY wants it sorted out it seems.

I have an idea to help sort this mess out !

How about a new thread headed; "Pretrib,midtrib,postrib and Exodus today".

Now on this thread supporters of any of those 4 end time beliefs, tells the STORY of their belief, according to these chapter headings. These are listed as they are to occur I think, but open to change, help, or suggestions.

So I will fill it in for you starting with Pretrib.

1; My present belief is :

Pretrib rapture.

Mine as well, but I see it as the time when God shall judge His House first excommunicating the vessels unto dishonor to receive later on after the great tribulation.

2; How to prepare for my belief :

(Now apart from our faith and prayer, here we explain what we do about our soon to be worthless possessions).Math 25;14 all.

Well... Jesus said we must sell everything we own and follow Him. Math 19; 16-24

Jesus response to the rich man seeking to enter the kingdom of Heaven by keeping the law, but yet will not sell everything he has to follow Him is not what Jesus is teaching His disciples to do. That was showing teh futility of man being able to get himself into Heaven. Only God can get us to Heaven.

If you want preparation in regards to this life, He wants us to live our lives normally, but be ready to give everything up and the people we love when the Bridegroom comes, and we need His help to do even that.

Luke 14:15-24 shows how the King invited ( saved believers ) to attend the Supper and when it came time, they all made excuses for the cares and loved ones of this life ( which indicates that saved believers will have possessions, a career, marriage, family, and etc. of what life gives us to care after ) and it can be a snare to love this life and our loved ones more than heed the call to leave when the Bridegroom comes. It is that we need His help in trusting Him to help us give everything up, no matter what we are in the middle of, to go Home above.

Luke 14:25-33 has Jesus expounding on that parable to the people about counting the cost of discipleship and it was not about how we are to live our lives down here in following Him, but how we follow Him to leave our lives down here when the Bridegroom comes.

So the cares and loved ones of our lives can be a snare which is why we should trust Him to help us love Him more than our lives and loved ones down here.

Luke 21:[SUP]33 [/SUP]Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.[SUP] 34 [/SUP]And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.[SUP] 35 [/SUP]For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.[SUP]36 [/SUP]Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

There is an escape, and certainly, not the escape where at the end of the great tribulation that saved believers would love their "persecuted" lives down here when they need the mark of the beast to buy & sell to even have a love for the cares of this life down here, and so the warnings of Jesus hardly applies to the end of the great tribulation when saints are being persecuted to death at.

It is the way the world is now.. how the cares of our lives can be a snare for why we should pray to Him to help us abide in His words as Hsi disciples and also to help us be ready to go when the Bridegroom comes.

3; How we survive the great tribulation :

"we wont be there".

I agree up to a point since not all saved believers will be found abiding in Him; and some will even love this life more than Him to be left behind. Scary, but He did not give that warning unless it could very well happen.

4: Where are we at our Lords return :

( easy for pre trib..."on our horses with the lord" and come with him to kill us "infidels".)

Not sure about the horses, but the Lord will do battle with the world's armies coming at Jerusalem and defeat Satan to put him in the pit for a thousand years.

5: Where are we during God's WRATH: .

Same as Q4.

Only those saved believers that are found abiding in Him and willing to go by His grace & by His help as our Good Shepherd.

Hebrews 12th chapter testifies to the father wrath's on those left behind as Luke 12:40-49 shows what happens when saved believers do not prepare themselves in getting ready.

Remember those 7 churches in Revelation? The church at Thyatira was warned to repent of her spiritual fornication or else be cast into the bed of the great tribulation.

So saved believers that do not look to Him for help in discerning and departing from iniquity can be left behind. Trusting Him as our Good Shepherd, placing all your hopes on Him in preparing us and having us willing to go is the only way any saved believer can escape what is coming on the earth.

6: Who are the righteous on earth with our Lord for the Millennium :

Only us.

Those who follow the stranger's voice that got left behind will be made to hear His voice and be of the one fold & one shepherd. John 10:1-5,16

All saints left behind shall be resurrected after Satan has been defeated and put into the pit when the Lord is on earth to set up His Millennium reign.

So that's MY understanding of a pretrib rapture, BECAUSE nobody will explain the STORY.

I believe the pre trib rapture is when God will judge His House first for the purpose of what the church does when they excommunicate an unrepentant believer.

1 Corinthians 5:[SUP]4 [/SUP]In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,[SUP]5 [/SUP]To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

NEXT...midtrib, the SIGN of our Lord's presence and a rapture for chosen ones ???

I do wonder how someone will present that in according to your set up of 6 questions for presentation.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Close but not quite right.

What I am saying is that EVERYTHING after the seventh trumpet happens outside of time. Eternity is essentially one unending instant.

MarcR, How can you have everything after the 7th trumpet take place outside of time. It makes no sense whatsoever! With the 2nd a 3rd bowls, you have the oceans and fresh water turned into literal blood. At the 7th bowl you have the greatest earthquake to ever take place since mankind has been on the earth. All of these things are within the realm of time.

You are misinterpreting the verse which says "there will be time no more" which in the interlinear actually says, "there shall be no more delay." Time does not cease to exist after the 7th trumpet. In addition, the woman/Israel will be cared for out in the desert during that last 3 1/2 years. And that last 3 1/2 years is when the beast is given authority over the great tribulation saints. Right after the 6th bowl h as been poured out, the Euphrates is dried up to make way for the kings of the East. Following that is the 7th bowl and the battle of Armageddon.

Therefore, how can you proclaim that time ceases to exits after the 7th trumpet is sounded?

You've got to be realistic and honest with yourself about this.

 

[Bladerunner]

The dead saints rising first has no bearing on my points.. Yes the dead saints will rise first.. Just before the living saints will be raptured.. This has nothing to do with the rapture happening or the rapture timing..

And the two different Resurrection one before the 1000 years and one after the 1000 years is clearly revealed in the Book of Revelation chapter 20..

You have this sentence correct

The first resurrection started the very day Jesus rose from his Tomb and to this date (today) has not stopped. Once the Church (Body of Christ) is Raptured and the Tribulation Saints are resurrected during Daniel's 70th week, The millennium (1000 years) reign of Jesus Christ physically on this earth (Jerusalem) sitting on David's throne will begin.

After the 1000 (millennium) year, the Great White Throne of Judgement will begin. This is when the 2nd resurrection occurs and it will not end well for any of those resurrected.

Aren't you glad you are part of the Church?

 

[GaryA]

This is when the 2nd resurrection occurs and it will not end well for any of those resurrected.

What about all of those who were saved and died during the millennium?

And - when do they get their Judgment Day?

Do you not believe that the wording of Revelation 20:15 leaves any room for saved people?

 

[Allenbee]

Thank you ENOW for your humble controlled explanation, in favor of Pretrib. Well done.

NEXT...midtrib, the SIGN of our Lord's presence and a rapture for chosen ones ???


"I do wonder how someone will present that in according to your set up of 6 questions for presentation".



Exactly my friend, so when we have them all... it surely will be a great help.

If no one comes forward for midtrib, I will have to use my own poor present understanding, as with pretrib.

 

[TMS]

Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy (Daniel 9:24).
“Thy people” were God’s chosen people Israel. Seventy weeks resolves into 490 days. Applying the day-year principle, 490 days become 490 years.
The 490 years were appointed to the Jewish nation for these six reasons found in Daniel 9:24:
1. to finish the transgression
2. to make an end of sins
3. to make reconciliation for iniquity
4. to bring in everlasting righteousness
5. to seal up vision and prophecy
6. to anoint the most Holy
These six issues could only be fulfilled in and through the Messiah. Who else could make reconciliation for iniquity or bring in everlasting righteousness?

 

[TMS]

The 70-week prophecy begins at the command that effected the restoration of Jerusalem. This command went forth under King Artaxerxes Longimanus in the year 457 BC (Ezra 7:12,13).
From this (457bc) starting point, we can determine all the other time markers of the prophecy. Seven weeks were allotted for the restoration of Jerusalem. True to the prophecy, Jerusalem was rebuilt 49 years after 457 BC, which was 408 BC.
Seven weeks (49 day-years) for the rebuilding of Jerusalem and another threescore and two weeks (62 weeks or 434 day-years) brings us to "the Messiah the Prince." Beginning in 457 BC and applying the day-year principle, we can determine the passing of 483 years from 457 BC which brings us to 27 AD (allowing for the conversion from BC to AD being one extra year).

In 27 AD, Jesus was anointed by the Holy Spirit on the occasion of His baptism which marked the beginning of His ministry (Luke 3:21-23). This baptism marked the event in Daniel’s prophecy “unto the Messiah the Prince.” When Christ proclaimed, “The time is fulfilled” (Mark 1:15), He was referring to this part of the prophecy.
Mar 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

 

[TMS]

The end of the prophecy is 34 AD, 7 day-years after the baptism:And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and oblation (an offering to God) to cease (Daniel 9:27).
Christ would confirm the covenant made with Israel for one prophetic week (7 years), but oblation (offerings) would cease in the middle of the week (3 ½ years after 27 AD). This mid-point brings us to 31 AD—the year Christ was crucified. It was at His death that he put an end to the system of offerings practiced by Israel for so many years.

 

[tanakh]

so have we decided yet how many times Jesus returns? once or twice????

I rely on Peters statement------

Repent herefore and turn again that your sins be blotted out that times of refreshing
may come from the presence of the lord and that he may send the Christ appointed for
you Jesus whom heaven must receive until the time for establishing all that God spoke
by the mouth of his holy prophets from of old

Acts3:19-21

By my calculation that means one return. If it meant Christ was leaving heaven prior to the tribulation that would mean one of three things. Either Peter didn't know what he was talking about. He was lying or Christ and everyone else will hover in the air during the whole tribulation period. The choice is yours.

 

[TMS]

Some modern interpretations confuse the 70-week prophecy by applying it to the Antichrist, who (according to this interpretation) would arrive at the end of the Christian dispensation some time in the future.
However, the prophecy in Daniel 9:26-27 has a chiastic (A literary structure used in the Bible in which symmetry or patterns are used to emphasize concepts) structure, and if this is taken into account, the apparent confusion in its literary style is eliminated:


The chiastic structure is as follows:
* a. Messiah destroyed
* b. Sanctuary destroyed
* b1. Sacrifice terminated
* a1. Ruler destroyed
Verse 27 has an additional chiasm: “he—week—week—he,” again emphasizing the role of the Messiah. It can thus be said that the destruction of the Messiah caused "the sacrifice and the oblation to cease." The Messiah would also confirm His covenant with God’s people by His sacrificial death “in the midst of the week.”
John Wycliffe, Martin Luther, and Isaac Newton all connect the 70th week with the Messiah. When Christ cried "It is finished," the priests were officiating in the temple. It was the hour of the evening sacrifice, and as the Passover lamb representing Christ was about to be slain, “the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake and the rocks rent” (Matthew 27:51).
After Christ died, rose again, and ascended to heaven, there were still 3 ½ day-years remaining in the prophecy. These ended in 34 AD with the stoning of Stephen (Acts 7:59- 8:4). At that time the Gospel was given to the Gentiles by individual ambassadors from every nation. Paul, the very one who consented to the stoning of Stephen, became the apostle to the Gentle world. Israel ceased to be the recipient and channel of God’s truth.

 

[TMS]

How many returns?
From what i read in the Bible once before the 1000 year millennium and than after. But when the Earth is made new, He may come and go between Heaven and earth many more times.

 

[garee]

The Amil "no literal thousand year" position works the best. It is the system that reformed the ideology of the fifteenth century refomation, the standard of any refomation.

We are already over two thousand literal years since the first resurrection .As promised the graves were opened ten thousand times ten saints who had the Spirit of Christ the temple of God entered their resting place asleep until the second and final resurrection. with no sign to seek after,a tribulation for those who do require a sign before they will believe ,which could be to late. We walk by faith the unseen eternal not after that seen the temporal corrupuption.

He will come as a thief in the night just as in the time of Noah.

Everything is there to make it complete. Adding to it in order to as if Christ has has not come in the flesh as the Son of man represents another gospel . There is no need for a temple the veil is rent destroying the use of the temporal use of the temple. Sign seekers who require a sign before they will exercise faith just cannot give up their foundation of walking by sight as below...

1John 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

Christ is the temple he dwells in men giving them a new spirit that will never die and a new heart according to His understanding.. Christ is not a building. Buildings like clouds represent his invisible presence.

Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.1Co 15:51

It’s the end of time, the last day, we are in the last days the tribulation began when the "time of reformation" came. just as the seventh was blown and the wall of Jericho fall so will it be on the last day. Judgment day for the unbeliever a new day for those who did have the faith of Christ working in them .

For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. 1Th 4:14 ............All in the twinkling of the eye.

Six times in the book of John Christ uses the phrase last day . He has come in the flesh the veil is rent destroying the purpose for the temple. There will be no more outward demonstrations of God who is not a man like us. There will be no physical reign of Jesus on this earth .The corrupted creation will go up in smoke on the last day, and in the twinkling of the eye the new incorruptible heavens and earth will appear.

Again a one-time "demonstration" of the Lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world.(the actual work) We are not to look for two or three demonstrations of Him who remains without form as if God was a man as us.. Why crucify the Son of God not seen over and over as if he did not come in the flesh as the Son of man the first time.

Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now "henceforth" know we him no more.Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.2Co 5:16

How long is henceforth we know him no more after that seen? Could it be until another temple is built and another veil is used over and over exposing him to public shame as if once was not enough to fulfill the promise of the Father and Son working together to bring the peace of God that does surpass human understanding?

The promise is found in Isiah 53. Do we make it to no effect by assuming we need an other demonstration to fulfill the lust of the eye or do we continue to walk by sight (the unseen eternal) ?

 

[GaryA]

The rebuilding of the city ends 52 years after the decree went forth. ( 405 B.C. )


This was the starting point for the 62 weeks referred to in Daniel 9:26. ( middle of the 8th week )

Daniel 9:

[SUP]24[/SUP] Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. [SUP]25[/SUP] Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. [SUP]26[/SUP] And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. [SUP]27[/SUP] And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


In the 'grammar of the language', the phrase in red sets the mark-in-time that "And after" in verse 26 is based / referenced against. The 62 weeks in verse 26 start counting from that mark-in-time. You need to understand this.

The 62 weeks do not start counting from the end of the 7th week. The 'grammar of the language' of this passage does not support this idea!

From a 'grammar of the language' perspective, you cannot separate "seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks" in verse 25 ( which simply means "69 weeks" ) into separate 'components' so that you can grammatically reference something to 'seven weeks'. The wording does not allow for it in any case. This only exists in the imaginations of men. It is in no way grammatically feasible.

So - if you think this, you need to do some re-thinking.

With regard to a mark-in-time, the phrase in red indicates the end of the rebuilding of the city.

The 62 weeks in verse 26 begin in the middle of the 8th week and end in the middle of the 70th week.

This places the crucifixion of Christ in the middle of the 70th week.

 

[garee]

What about all of those who were saved and died during the millennium?

We who remain alive are part of the first century reformation / resurrection. They are added to the ten thousand time thousands of Old testament saints who did have the Spirit of Christ in them. Today since the work is finished.. to be absent of the body of death is to be present with the Holy Spirit of Christ n the mansion of many rooms. The new heavenly Jerusalem which is typified by the earthly.

And - when do they get their Judgment Day?

Believers like the saints in who when the veil was rent ...their graves opened and they entered the new heavenly Jerusalem as members of the bride of Christ.We will not come into condemnation (judgement) and cause double jeapordy

Do you not believe that the wording of Revelation 20:15 leaves any room for saved people?

No I think when he comes he will not find faith that he has freely has been given to the last creature he had planed by faith and written in a book as a testimony to add to the book .

The whole chapter 20 begins from the standpoint on the last day. (things which must shortly "the twinkling of the eye") come to pass;

In that last day in the twining of the eye whosoever name is not found in the lambs book of life will be cast into the judgment place for the unbeliever. There is no condemnation to those in Christ. They will not be judged twice to see if Christ had paid the full wage of sin on our behalf. and therefore making the work of Christ's faith without effect. .

 

[garee]

In the 'grammar of the language', the phrase in red sets the mark-in-time that "And after" in verse 26 is based / referenced against. The 62 weeks in verse 26 start counting from that mark-in-time. You needto understand this.

Yes understand that mark marks the “time of reformation” the beginning of the trouble of Jacob. The outward Jew in false pride is no longer used in parables as signs and shadows, the veil is rent.

The temple served its temporal purpose as that seen to represent Christ not seen , He is the temple of God that lives in people. Because the time of reformation has come it restored the order to when there was no outward representative that were used in parable until the "time of reformation". It restored to the time period of the Judges.

The unbelieving Jew is still waiting for the veil to be rent and Christ to kill all of the gentiles. The reformation brought a tribulation that the world had not known before. The Israel that were not Israel as to a inward Jew born again were scattered all over the world to show he was finished using their outward flesh as a demonstration of a spiritual work not seen .

Today the way of the holiest has been made.... no need for a temple to stand, it did its work of introduces the suffering of Christ beforehand through the ceremonial laws that preached the gospel before ha and the revealed glory has occurred, the graves where opened , witnessed by the darkening of the Sun and an earthquake. (the first resurrection ).


The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:Which was a figure (parable) for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the “time of reformation”. Heb 9:8

The wailing wall that remains is simply used as a idol image in a hope Christ will appear in the flesh..

 

[Muzungu256]

garee but what do u do with the promises that were made about the "golden age" here on earth? in isaiah 11, isaiah 65:20 n tings?
peter seems to be wanting that in acts 1:6

 

[heartofdavid]

so have we decided yet how many times Jesus returns? once or twice????

rev 14.

that would be one,would it not?
1 thes 4,would be another,would it not?
Rev 19,still another.

 

[MarcR]

MarcR, How can you have everything after the 7th trumpet take place outside of time. It makes no sense whatsoever! With the 2nd a 3rd bowls, you have the oceans and fresh water turned into literal blood. At the 7th bowl you have the greatest earthquake to ever take place since mankind has been on the earth. All of these things are within the realm of time.

You are misinterpreting the verse which says "there will be time no more" which in the interlinear actually says, "there shall be no more delay." Time does not cease to exist after the 7th trumpet. In addition, the woman/Israel will be cared for out in the desert during that last 3 1/2 years. And that last 3 1/2 years is when the beast is given authority over the great tribulation saints. Right after the 6th bowl h as been poured out, the Euphrates is dried up to make way for the kings of the East. Following that is the 7th bowl and the battle of Armageddon.

Therefore, how can you proclaim that time ceases to exits after the 7th trumpet is sounded?

You've got to be realistic and honest with yourself about this.

I don't think that God is under any obligation to make me or you comfortable with every truth He reveals.

God elected to tell us that time ends when the seventh trumpet sounds. That's just what the words mean if they are not twisted. Neither you nor I are obliged to like it; but we should both accept the truth of it.

 

[Bogadile]

rev 14.

that would be one,would it not?
1 thes 4,would be another,would it not?
Rev 19,still another.

You have mentioned this very often, are you suggesting that the rapture occurs in revelation 14?