Spies in the Bible.

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Jason0047

Jason0047

Banned
#61
Jul 22, 2014
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#61
DesiredHaven said:
You can have a lie in your right hand, and you can also be a liar simply by saying you love God, and hate your brother, and Rahab didnt do that.

If I said she told the truth I feel I would be lying (everything in me says no way).
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If a soldier was following orders to kill the enemy, would he be murdering?

In other words, taking life can either be a sin, and sometimes it is not.
In fact, in the case of taking your own life so as to save another it is the highest form of love. Yet it is still taking life.

Yet if I say to a child... "Don't ever take a life." This would only be in context to murdering others.

And I would lie to save your rearend (is all I am saying)

I think we will just acknowledge it differently, and I am okay that you feel differently about it, but Im okay with disagreeing cordially but I really dont want to wrangle about it.

I get convicted about that
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I would do the same thing. Because I know it is not lying as defined in the Bible. Would it be lying as defined by this world? Yes. In other words, I can say... what is the opposite of murder? It is saving (sparing) a life. Yet was is the opposite of killing one's enemy? It is is in saving (sparing) one's enemy. See, where I am coming from?
 
Jason0047

Jason0047

Banned
#62
Jul 22, 2014
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#62
Jason0047 said:
what is the opposite of murder? It is saving (sparing) a life. Yet was is the opposite of killing one's enemy? It is is in saving (sparing) one's enemy. See, where I am coming from?
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It's the same with deception. What is the opposite of lying? Telling the truth. What is the opposite of deceiving the enemy as a part of the art of war so as to save lives? Telling the truth. See where I am coming from?
 
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DesiredHaven

Guest
#63
#63
Let me put it this way...

If ISIS invaded the U.S and a bunch of believers were hiding out at another believers house (or mine, lets say) and they appraoched the house (seeking to kill you all) and owner the house had a question of concience at a bad time (concerning what to do) I would simply cry out, "Do what Rahab did"! And they would know immediately what that meant, it would mean to lie to those that come to the door (is all).

I really wouldnt have to say lie, they would just do that because in that particular time it wouldnt be about these sorts of semantics.

I dont ever approach the picture of Rahab in this way, I have it written out paralleling other things elsewhere and proving out other things outside of those as well.

But I usually throw this up when the Corey Ten Boone story comes up because I would imitate Rahab (a biblical example before I would any other) when it come to keeping the Lords prophets safe.

Hopefully, I could just hide them as Obadiah did (and be lucky enough to keep my trap shut altogether). That would be far better.
 
Jason0047

Jason0047

Banned
#64
Jul 22, 2014
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#64
DesiredHaven said:
Let me put it this way...

If ISIS invaded the U.S and a bunch of believers were hiding out at another believers house (or mine, lets say) and they appraoched the house (seeking to kill you all) and owner the house had a question of concience at a bad time (concerning what to do) I would simply cry out, "Do what Rahab did"! And they would know immediately what that meant, it would mean to lie to those that come to the door (is all).

I really wouldnt have to say lie, they would just do that because in that particular time it wouldnt be about these sorts of semantics.

I dont ever approach the picture of Rahab in this way, I have it written out paralleling other things elsewhere and proving out other things outside of those as well.

But I usually throw this up when the Corey Ten Boone story comes up because I would imitate Rahab (a biblical example before I would any other) when it come to keeping the Lords prophets safe.

Hopefully, I could just hide them as Obadiah did (and be lucky enough to keep my trap shut altogether). That would be far better.
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Well, just to be clear, I am not against what Rahab did.

However, I am saying be careful of what you say. What you say can make or break you. For unbelievers who think the Bible is full of contradictions could be reading what we are writing. This is important to understand to use the right words because words put certain pictures in our mind of something either being good or bad. Also, the Bible does not ever tie the word "lie" (and or it's similar sounding words) in deceiving the enemy so as to save lives. So if the Bible does not use the word "lie" in connection to what Rahab actually did, then we shouldn't use that word, either. Yes, I am aware that the world defines the word "lie" as you do, but the Bible doesn't (And that is my point). Especially when people do not think that the word "murder" is not an appropriate word for soldiers in taking lives so as to protect our country.
 
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DesiredHaven

Guest
#65
#65
Jason0047 said:
Well, just to be clear, I am not against what Rahab did.

However, I am saying be careful of what you say. What you say can make or break you. For unbelievers who think the Bible is full of contradictions could be reading what we are writing. This is important to understand to use the right words because words put certain pictures in our mind of something either being good or bad. Also, the Bible does not ever tie the word "lie" (and or it's similar sounding words) in deceiving the enemy so as to save lives. So if the Bible does not use the word "lie" in connection to what Rahab actually did, then we shouldn't use that word, either. Yes, I am aware that the worlld defines the word "lie" as you do, but the Bible doesn't (And that is my point). Especially when people do not think that the word "murder" is not an appropriate word for soldiers in taking lives so as to protect our country.
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You were okay with believing Sarah lied about laughing when the LORD confronted her (when it doesnt say she lied (but denied) but in this you arent.

But heres what I will do since its stumbling people apparently, when we talk I will call it "not telling the truth" if it will make you happier.

Rahab wasnt a soldier anyway, she was a civilian (but whatever lol)
 
Jason0047

Jason0047

Banned
#66
Jul 22, 2014
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#66
DesiredHaven said:
You were okay with believing Sarah lied about laughing when the LORD confronted her (when it doesnt say she lied (but denied) but in this you arent.
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No, I didn't say I was okay with Sarah laughing about how she would give birth to a child in her old age. That was wrong. I said I was okay with Abraham and Sarah not telling the Pharoah and Abimilech about how she was Abraham's wife.

But heres what I will do since its stumbling people apparently, when we talk I will call it "not telling the truth" if it will make you happier.
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Yes, it would be better to say, "not telling the truth" because it is more ambigious and it does not immediately conjure up a picture of sin. For if I do not tell you the truth about all my personal life, that does not mean I was selfishly lying. Just because I might deceive someone who is my enemy with an art of war tactic to save other people's lives does not me I am selfishly lying to protect my own sin, etc.

In other words, ask people if they think lying is a sin or not. Ask people if they think lying is bad. Most people will say lying is a sin and that it is bad. Why? As I said several times before, Revelation 21:8 says all liars will have their part in the Lake of Fire.

Rahab wasnt a soldier anyway, she was a civilian (but whatever lol)
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You don't have to be a soldier to be in a war or a battle or violent situation.

The "art of war" is defined as strategy, tactics, and techniques of combat.

Rahab was faced with a potential combat or violent scenario that would be against her two new friends of God. She helped devise and employ a strategy that would help evade a violent scenario and save the two men of God.
 
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Jason0047

Jason0047

Banned
#67
Jul 22, 2014
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#67
Anyways, getting back to "Spies in the Bible":

Well, the first mention of spying in the Old Testament was in the story of Joseph. While this was not a spy story per say, we learn of spies for the first time in the Bible at this point. When Joseph had became a powerful man in Egypt and his brothers came to visit Egypt to buy food during the famine (without them recognizing him), Joseph accused his brothers of being spies.
 
Jason0047

Jason0047

Banned
#68
Jul 22, 2014
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#68
In the Law of first mention in the Bible, we can usually see a theme that transpires in all the other occurences of the mention of spies. In this case, spies according to Joseph were not a good thing to him. Yet Joseph was accusing them falsely, though. In the situation with the spies in Canaan, the mission was a success, yet the majority of the spies except Joshua and Caleb all had given negative reports (Thereby giving spies a bad name). For spies were supposed to be courageous. In the story of Rahab: We learn about two spies of God who were considered a great threat to the city Rahab was living in. Yet, these two spies were her salvation. However, the ultimate spy story was the story of Jesus, though. For Jesus was the ultimate spy. He accomplished the greatest top secret mission for the salvation of all mankind. Yet, Jesus was despised and He was accused falsely; All because He loved us so very much.
 
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DesiredHaven

Guest
#69
#69
Jason0047 said:
No, I didn't say I was okay with Sarah laughing about how she would give birth to a child in her old age. That was wrong. I said I was okay with Abraham and Sarah not telling the Pharoah and Abimilech about how she was Abraham's wife.
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No, I said you were okay with saying Sarah LIED when it doesnt say that, it says she DENIED (not lied).

You were earlier speaking of not adding the word lie into the scripture.

I was in the millitary I do understand tactics.

Under the word lie is the same word deceive

1 Kings 13:18 He said unto him, I am a prophet also as thou art; and an angel spake unto me by the word of the LORD, saying, Bring him back with thee into thine house, that he may eat bread and drink water. But he lied unto him.


  1. to deceive, lie, fail, grow lean, be disappointing, be untrue, be insufficient, be found liars, belie, deny, dissemble, deal falsely
    1. (Qal) to become lean
    2. (Niphal) to cringe, feign obedience
    3. (Piel)
      1. to deceive, deny falsely
      2. to act deceptively
      3. to cringe
      4. to disappoint, fail
    4. (Hithpael) to cringe, feign obedience

The soldiers asked John what should they do here also

Luke 3:14And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying, And what shall we do? And he said unto them, Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages.
 
Jason0047

Jason0047

Banned
#71
Jul 22, 2014
10,350
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#71
Jason0047

Jason0047

Banned
#72
Jul 22, 2014
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#72
DesiredHaven said:
No, I said you were okay with saying Sarah LIED when it doesnt say that, it says she DENIED (not lied).
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What? You can't be serious. She laughed and then denied that she laughed. If that is not lying then what exactly is it then? Do you think she was delusional or forgetful?

You were earlier speaking of not adding the word lie into the scripture.
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There is a difference between telling when somebody lied (without the word lie being used) versus attaching the word "lie" to an action in the Bible that is not specifically stated as so at any poiint.

I was in the millitary I do understand tactics.
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Glad we are on the same page now.

Under the word lie is the same word deceive

1 Kings 13:18 He said unto him, I am a prophet also as thou art; and an angel spake unto me by the word of the LORD, saying, Bring him back with thee into thine house, that he may eat bread and drink water. But he lied unto him.


  1. to deceive, lie, fail, grow lean, be disappointing, be untrue, be insufficient, be found liars, belie, deny, dissemble, deal falsely
    1. (Qal) to become lean
    2. (Niphal) to cringe, feign obedience
    3. (Piel)
      1. to deceive, deny falsely
      2. to act deceptively
      3. to cringe
      4. to disappoint, fail
    4. (Hithpael) to cringe, feign obedience
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You don't have to patronize me in showing me what the Dictionary says. That is a nice worldy definition. However, did you look at the KJV Online Dictionary, though? Wasn't going to bother to mention it, but seeing you are not willing to let this topic go (You should check it out).

The soldiers asked John what should they do here also

Luke 3:14And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying, And what shall we do? And he said unto them, Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages.
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What has this got to do with anything?
 
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Jason0047

Jason0047

Banned
#73
Jul 22, 2014
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#73
All liars will have their part in the Lake of Fire.

If Rahab lied, and the men of God went along with that lie, then they would be a party to her lie.
But she didn't lie as if it was a sin.

Obviously Rahab's deception is not the same as the all liars who will have their part in the Lake of Fire.
 
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DesiredHaven

Guest
#74
#74
Jason0047 said:
You don't have to patronize me in showing me what the Dictionary says. That is a nice worldy definition. However, did you look at the KJV Online Dictionary, though? Wasn't going to bother to mention it, but seeing you are not willing to let this topic go (You should check it out).
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worldly definition.png

It was from there.

You can call that worldly if you want, thats fine too.

You are on my ignore list from now on, so you dont have to worry about me speaking with you again.

Enjoy yourself!
 
Jason0047

Jason0047

Banned
#75
Jul 22, 2014
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#75
Didn't mean to offend you. But when you show me what it says in Concordance and or a Dictionary, when I know what the basic meaning of a word says is a little insulting. Also, I do have a problem with folks relying on Strong's Concordance as if that was their special code key interpreter instead of praying to God and or comparing Scripture with Scripture and or looking at the context. Strong and his colleagues were not infallible men. Their work was not perfect or without flaw. They were not writing a new book of Scripture. Their work was not inspired. While their Concordance can be a helpful tool sometimes, by no means it an answer book to understanding God's Word.
 
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Jason0047

Jason0047

Banned
#76
Jul 22, 2014
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#76
Again, lets go over the simple logic of this. Revelation 21:8 says all liars will have their part in the Lake of Fire. If Rahab lied then she would be under the judgment of Revelation 21:8 unless she repented. Also, if Rahab lied, then the two men of God would be condoning her lie by not disapproving of it. Which would mean that they would also be a party to the Judgment in Revelation 21:8 unless they repented, too.

For it seems strange that the focus or plot point of this story centers around this supposed lie. Why would God glorify such a sin within this story of the Bible?
 
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Jason0047

Jason0047

Banned
#77
Jul 22, 2014
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#77
DesiredHaven said:
View attachment 98547

It was from there.

You can call that worldly if you want, thats fine too.

You are on my ignore list from now on, so you dont have to worry about me speaking with you again.

Enjoy yourself!
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I do apologize for thinking that your definition was originally from a regular Dictionary. But you have to understand that if I told you about something basic to you in the military and I was never in the military, would you not feel a little insulted? I know. I have pointed out the definition of words to people in the past, too. However, I don't keep pointing that definition out when it has already been given and when I agree with what the defintion says. I do have Google and I can look up words, too. Also, we have to realize Dictionaries, Concordances, and Eytmologies are not exhaustive sources and they are not the bar of ultimate knowledge to understanding God's Word. So far, the meaning of the word "lie" has been brought to my attention from 2-3 sources here in this thread, but yet, you are not pointing to me how that word is used thru out the entirety of the Bible. I have mentioned Revelation 21:8 many times and yet you have ignored it many times.
 
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Jason0047

Jason0047

Banned
#78
Jul 22, 2014
10,350
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#78
Anyways, getting back to "Spies in the Bible":

Besides, the undercover mission of Jesus Christ being my favorite spy story in the Bible, I would say Rahab and the two men of God would be my next favorite. First, the story itself raises some great moral concepts to discuss in relation to being a spy. Second, we learn that it is an intelligence gathering mission that led to both Rahab and the two spies in showing mercy to one another. An act of love is repaid with love back. For God's Judgment was coming upon the city of Rahab and the only way of escape for her in responding the right way with these two men from God and in following their instructions.
 
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Jason0047

Jason0047

Banned
#79
Jul 22, 2014
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#79
"Rahab's Scarlet Thread is like that of Christ's blood and or blood line"

(a) Scarlet thread Rahab uses to let Joshua's two spies to escape is symbolic of Christ's shed blood allowing us to escape unharmed from spiritual death.

(b) The scarlet thread is representative of the blood line of a coming Messiah.

(c) The scarlet thread that was tied at her window to protect her and her family when Joshua was going to attack her city is a parallel to the Passover in Exodus. For just as Joshua would pass over her house by seeing the scarlet thread, the Lord passed over the houses with the blood on the door posts on the Passover.​
 
Jason0047

Jason0047

Banned
#80
Jul 22, 2014
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#80
What are some other spies in the Bible? Well...

New Covenant Believers are Sort of Like Covert Operatives (or Spies) for the LORD. For...

#1. Christ tells us that we are to give to others in secret (Matthew 6:4).
#2. Christ tells us that we are to pray in secret (Matthew 6:6).
#3. Christ tells us to fast in secret (Matthew 6:16-18).
#4. Christ tells us that we are to be as innocent as doves but as wise as serpents (Matthew 10:16). This means we are to be cunning (without compromising morality) when we preach the gospel house to house.
#5. Christ tells us the mysteries of the Kingdom (secret knowledge) is not given to unbelievers (Matthew 13:11). For even Paul says in 1 Corinthians 2:7 that, " we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world"

For even the battle we fight is an unseen battle or an invisible war.


"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places." (Ephesians 6:12).


 
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