Stonesoffire: Genesis study

[BeyondET]

Sorry you lost me here...
Maybe it would help me to understand if you give me the verses that describe the natural light that existed before the creation of the sun and before the creation of the eyes of humans. It usually helps me to see the verses for how someone came to their understanding.

I'll try and be clearer,

God said let THERE be Light, and anybody who thinks that Gods light, Jesus light, came when God said let there be light is in error sorry but Gods light has always been from the very beginning and before that and will remain always period.. trying to give some kind a parable out of the creation story of the natural light it doesn't fit in my book... First star, first Galaxy, Big Bang light what ever, is the natural light and was let there be light in the universe...

 

[Sturuj]

wow, great discussion, i thought "stones of fire" from the book of Ezekiel...

 

[Sturuj]

it seems he was telling the truth

Yup

Beware, some of us have turned a bit crazy over the years

Welcome

jk

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I'll try and be clearer,

God said let THERE be Light, and anybody who thinks that Gods light, Jesus light, came when God said let there be light is in error sorry but Gods light has always been from the very beginning and before that and will remain always period.. trying to give some kind a parable out of the creation story of the natural light it doesn't fit in my book... First star, first Galaxy, Big Bang light what ever, is the natural light and was let there be light in the universe...

Ahhh, I see! Sorry, I was not understanding you!
I see when God said, let there be light, more as...Let the light shine in this darkness.
And that this light was not Him creating Jesus, but was Him calling Jesus to this place of darkness to begin creating all we see. No positive creation of which God says they are good happened until after this uncreated light (Jesus) shines on the darkness.
So I am not thinking He created this light. I believe this light is the uncreated light, Jesus.

I might have had a fit and not been as patient as you if I thought someone was saying God created Jesus!

 

[Willie-T]

I'll try and be clearer,

God said let THERE be Light, and anybody who thinks that Gods light, Jesus light, came when God said let there be light is in error sorry but Gods light has always been from the very beginning and before that and will remain always period.. trying to give some kind a parable out of the creation story of the natural light it doesn't fit in my book... First star, first Galaxy, Big Bang light what ever, is the natural light and was let there be light in the universe...

Would that have to be speaking of the creation of Jesus (actually, God Himself), or the AVAILABILITY of the understanding of Jesus upon an earth that did not yet know Him?

 

[1ofthem]

Jesus was with God when he created the earth. This is evident in John 1. However, in my opinion, Genesis is talking about God creating a natural light not the light of Jesus’ presence.

When you go to John 1: 1-3 and read the scripture it is saying that Jesus was with God in the beginning and everything that was made was made by him.

Then, If you look at vs 4 I think it is referring to him as the spiritual light not physical light. To me, life that is the light of men is their spirit

It says vs 4 In him was life: and the life was the light of men. Then vs 5 says and the light shineth in darkness and the darkness comprehended it not.

Now in my opinion, this is clearly talking spiritual not physical and after the fact that man was created not before. Because physical darkness will comprehend light. When it is dark, if you strike a match, immediately there is light. Physical darkness cannot deny physical light. Spiritual darkness is not the same because spiritual darkness can deny or not comprehend Spiritual light.

So to me, I think Genesis is talking about a physical light in physical darkness, and John is talking about the spiritual light shining into men’s hearts not on the face of the earth before men were formed.

 

[stonesoffire]

I'm working now on this thread but wanted to say this about what I believe.

First of all, I believe adam and eve were beings of light and weren't flesh until the fall. The other thing that I see differently is that God breathed "spirit" or breath into adam. Some say spirit and soul are combined. This may be true but the Word seperates it.

So I agree that the scripture in John 1:9 is speaking of this breath of life or light that shineth on every man but is the part of our being spirit. The spirit of man is the candle of the Lord. OT scripture. Not looking for it at the moment.

Perhaps the divine spark teaching of new age is different. I don't know since I don't really know what new age teaches.

back to stunneds teaching..

 

[Magenta]

Ah...so you are relating Jesus, the uncreated light, to eternal life, which He also is...no, that falls apart for me.
I guess I'm not understanding.
I thought you were jumping across the ways He is described (which I do too) and thinking: The Word/Lamb/Light/Eternal Life.
So I started to follow it but my mind lost the thread I had snatched. It occurs to me this may be because we are viewing souls differently, like maybe you think souls live forever and I think they don't unless they receive His Spirit...

If you view soul as containing the consciousness of a person, it may help... the same breath of life that animates animals, animates human beings, though humans are made in the image of God, and we are not given that concerning animals. Though everything is created by and for the glory of Jesus Christ, and we live and move and have our being in Him, not everything has consciousness of it's existence, such as that which we classify as vegetable (other organic life forms) and mineral

I am just reading through the thread from where I left off last night, so
do please excuse me if this point has already been made further along

 

[Ariel82]

Ah...so you are relating Jesus, the uncreated light, to eternal life, which He also is...no, that falls apart for me.
I guess I'm not understanding.
I thought you were jumping across the ways He is described (which I do too) and thinking: The Word/Lamb/Light/Eternal Life.
So I started to follow it but my mind lost the thread I had snatched. It occurs to me this may be because we are viewing souls differently, like maybe you think souls live forever and I think they don't unless they receive His Spirit...

What?? I think we are on two totally different pages. Did you read the quote my response was to? It wasn't your OP. Just answering a question asked in the thread. Also I posted a ton of bible verses about the breath of life God gives all living things,

 

[Ariel82]

This was so interesting. Thank you!

So then, you think this was a created light rather than Jesus, the uncreated light, being spoken of in the beginning of Genesis?

Yes.........,,

 

[Ariel82]

So do you think that Jude was mistaken and Enoch did not prophesy this OR do you think the book we know as Enoch is corrupted except for this one portion?

I have been meaning to look at it for years, so I've no idea (other than Judes quote) what is in it.

Option 2. I believe the book is corrupt and like Satan in the desert tempting Jesus, the author quoted the Bible to deceive people.

 

[Magenta]

Could you define "a false reading of the bible" for me?
Admittedly, I don't know what articles you guys are referring to, but are you saying that there are no people descended from Seth?

I did not understand that statement either, for I was explaining my understanding of the specific Scriptural verse, not referring to some unknown article (?). This may be an aside, but:

Giants being mentioned in the Bible have nothing at all to do with angels and humans having sexual intercourse. Giants are mentioned several places in Scripture, and they are simply extremely tall people. For instance, Goliath was described as being giant, but calculations put him at around nine or ten feet tall. Mentions of giants are in Genesis 6:4; Joshua 12:4. Og, king of Bashan (Deuteronomy 3:11); the giant people in Canaan that Moses’ spies reported (Numbers 13:30–33); Goliath (2 Samuel 21:19); and the Anakites (Deuteronomy 9:1–2). Some say the flood was on account of this perversion of angels and humans etc but that cannot be unless God failed, since giants survived the flood even to our time. Have you ever heard of Robert Wadlow? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Wadlow

 

[trofimus]

I have no idea what you are all talking about

Are you writing some fantasy book and looking for ideas?

 

[Ariel82]

Well I am one who believes that our sun is a nuclear reactor basically taking place inside of it as well as any other star AKA sun
in the universe... do I think there was a natural light source before our sun, yup I do...

The energy of the sun comes from the fusion of mostly hydrogen atoms.

I always believed when God said "let that be light" He set things in motion. I believe in a big bang event...God spoke and bang, the universe was created.

 

[LaurenTM]

Stunnedbygrace;2951924]No worries. I don't feel attacked!


I'm not correcting. I was trying to respond to where you said it is a mistake to say all the word is spiritual. We know the word is Spirit because God is Spirit. And Jesus said, the words I give you, they are spirit...So to say the words are spirit does not do away with them also having literal temporal meaning, but it is the Spirit of the word that avails us.

we have a hard copy ...that is a paper copy bound in whatever...Bible in our hands...touch it, feel it, smell it...it's not spirit....in the same manner, Jesus was born at a certain time into this world...read John chapter one...and the WORD became flesh and dwelt among us...etc....now, you need to understand that is not all spirit as you appear to be trying to suggest...and you are confusing, quite badly I am sorry to say, what Jesus said regarding spirit.

it appears you are taking what Jesus said and applying it to Genesis and creation...why would you do that?

are you of the mind that the book of Genesis is one big parable as suggested here:

Originally Posted by birdie

Thanks stunnedbygrace. I completely agree with you that the book of Genesis is written in parable form, as is all of the Bible (Psalm 78:1-2, Mark 4:34). You are entirely correct to look for a spiritual meaning. When the Bible says to compare spiritual with spiritual in 1 Corinthians 2:13 it means to compare spiritual words of the Bible with other spiritual words of the Bible to get at the spiritual meaning. Comparing same words throughout the Bible is a good way to do this.

I am somewhat curious to know what you mean by this:

I know this will not be well received by most and they will insist on the letter rather than the spirit, but we will just ignore that and study this.

why would you think that? why do you think MOST will not receive what you are writing about?

now this:

When jonteel asked us what was a place God did not create, most did not understand, but a few had this answer: darkness. Yes, there is a verse where God says, I create the darkness. This creation in the very beginning of Genesis is a negative creation, caused by casting something or someone from His presence. It is not the positive creation of: let there be...
Those people were able to, at least even just dimly, see that hell will also be a negative creation. So it can be said that He created darkness, but in another sense, it can be said He did not. You have to see it spiritually to understand.

most did not understand, but you did? the beginning of creation in Genesis is a negative creation?

If ever there was a place that could be called the outer darkness, this in the beginning of Genesis was that outer darkness. No light, so no three dimensionalness, thus no bodies. It is light that makes three dimensionalness by its' effects on things. Light and shadow create the three dimensionalism. Without them there is the undistinguishableness of "void.

light makes 3 dimensions? how so? you know honestly, I do not see in scripture these conclusions that you appear to have formed both from your own 'study' and somehow incorporating jonteel's 'study'..honestly, please explain what you mean by light creates 3 dimensions and are you aware that scientists believe there are more? for example, according to string theory, there are at least TEN dimensions and we know from scripture, that God does not dwell in our dimension...so how would your statement shed more light (pardon the unintended pun) on creation?

do you see where I am going with this? filling in the 'blanks' of scripture is not a harmless pastime ... much error has been born out of such endeavors

The temporal will be done away with.Then I was responding to the part where you said Adam and Eve were not just Spirit beings but also had temporal bodies. So I agreed they were spiritual and also temporal before the fall. There was no war between the two then.

Adam and Eve never lost the spiritual part of themselves...nowhere in scripture is such a thing even hinted at. we do not suddenly receive a spirit at conversion...the Holy Spirit takes up residence in what is already there and begins His work in us

Have I answered all of the questions?

Oh wait, you asked what I meant by saying: when we receive the Spirit. I meant when we are born again from above and receive Gods' Spirit.

I am referring to this:

Once we do receive the Spirit though, we begin to walk in the cohesiveness that was lost to us.

are you stating that somehow that which was lost in the fall suddenly or somehow begins to operate again?

is that what you are saying?

 

[Ariel82]

I'll try and be clearer,

God said let THERE be Light, and anybody who thinks that Gods light, Jesus light, came when God said let there be light is in error sorry but Gods light has always been from the very beginning and before that and will remain always period.. trying to give some kind a parable out of the creation story of the natural light it doesn't fit in my book... First star, first Galaxy, Big Bang light what ever, is the natural light and was let there be light in the universe...

Lol we could always talk about antimatter, black holes, the fact that things are made up of what scientist believe is empty space more than actual matter, etc.

 

[LaurenTM]

I'm working now on this thread but wanted to say this about what I believe.

First of all, I believe adam and eve were beings of light and weren't flesh until the fall. The other thing that I see differently is that God breathed "spirit" or breath into adam. Some say spirit and soul are combined. This may be true but the Word seperates it.

So I agree that the scripture in John 1:9 is speaking of this breath of life or light that shineth on every man but is the part of our being spirit. The spirit of man is the candle of the Lord. OT scripture. Not looking for it at the moment.

Perhaps the divine spark teaching of new age is different. I don't know since I don't really know what new age teaches.

back to stunneds teaching..

well, that may be what you believe...but there is no indication of that in the Genesis recounting or any other part of scripture that I am aware of...I did see this in the movie 'Noah' however...which may have had a few good parts in it, but for the most part was in grotesque error

divine spark? uh...

 

[Miri]

Oh! Yes please, sis miri, pm it! I am always interested in hearing whatever each of you has to say!

Admittedly, yes, the Spirit of the words is dim for us a lot of the time. All the things God saw were good, only begin to be created after this light that isn't the sun appeared here. Before that, He doesn't say any of it is good. And since all we see with our human eyes was created through Jesus, who is called this uncreated light by John, it makes perfect sense to me. But it's good to hear from those too who don't agree the light is Jesus.

Im sure there will be people who disagree with this.

As I say I don't pretend to know everything but I do believe in the trinity. That God did
not create Jesus - Jesus the Holy Spirit and God were there at what we call the beginning.
Though it wasn't the beginning for God - He has no beginning and no end. It is only for
our benefit that the beginning was described in Genesis - it refers to our beginning and
the start of the material world and universe as far as we are able to perceive it.

It would be like someone building a world out of lego bricks then the lego people thinking
their world was the very beginning. But it wasn't there was a builder, and kingdom before
their beginning, but it would be like them getting hold of a book which said in the
beginning was a red brick. Lol

We are debating if the red lego brick (darkness) was the start of the beginning, it might have
been the start of our beginning but it wasn't the start of Gods beginning.

I think i might have lost the plot a bit there but hopefully you see the point.

 

[LaurenTM]

Lol we could always talk about antimatter, black holes, the fact that things are made up of what scientist believe is empty space more than actual matter, etc.

all the little atoms racing around...nothing is solid

and that does not mean A & E were spirit beings

I really want someone to tell me how they derive at the belief that Genesis is a parable...so that I can counter it! LOL!

 

[Ariel82]

Interesting fact:

"Number 3: You could fit the entire human race in the volume of a sugar cube


This is because matter is incredibly, mind-bogglingly empty. An atom is like a miniature Solar System, with a tight nucleus playing the role of a Sun orbited by electrons like planets. But the nucleus is incredibly tiny compared with the orbits of the electrons. Tom Stoppard, the playwright, had the best image. He said, if the nucleus is like the altar of St Paul's cathedral, an electron is like a moth in the cathedral, one moment by the altar, the next by the dome. Imagine squeezing all the space out of an atom. Well, if you did that to all the atoms in all the people in the world, you could indeed fit the entire human race in the volume of a sugar cube."

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