SUFFERING AS YOUR ACT OF WORSHIP

[followjesus]

What would matter is the watchman doesn't sound the alarm.

if i see a blind person running full speed towards a cliff, it seems like if im not close enough to physically stop them, the best thing to do is shout " Hey stop! you are headed for a cliff" even if they shout back " No im not your dumb, and rude i can fly" .....im sure its not Love to say " well okay i tried" and Let them go ahead and die. wouldn't seem Like Love if i didnt shout all the Louder to try to get through to them........to just keep silent when you understand perfectly that its a million ft drop.and they actually dont have any wings. almost as if id be a contributer to thier death if i didnt do all i could to warn them.

 

[FeedtheMachine]

Hi Spark,

I would say in reference to the OP that suffering as our spiritual act of worship is incomplete. Our spiritual act of worship can include suffering, but in and of itself, it isn’t our act of worship. So what is our spiritual act of worship?

Romans 12:1-2


Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship. And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.


It’s what Jesus said in Matthew 16.


Then Jesus said to His disciples, “If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me. For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it; but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it. For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul?


We are a living and holy sacrifice unto the Lord. Each day we reconfirm this by giving our lives over to the Lord to do as He will.


When I was first saved, we had beautiful, loving and kind mentors who were Charismatic and even probably WOF.


I was saved in December, one month later I was having pain in my gall bladder region. I was prayed for and in March my gall bladder was so diseased that it had to come out. Within 6 months I got FM and have had it for almost 40 years.


With all the love, care, concern and prayer from so many lovely believers in Christ with all the faith there is to believe that I‘d be healed, I’m not. But I believe in healing and God does heal, just not everyone.


My husband was prayed for a problem he had and he was healed. It was a genuine healing and we praise God for his healing all the time.


God decides who will be healed and who won’t. And He gives us all the grace to endure whatever comes upon us. I have other health issues now and so far I’m not healed of them. God can heal me and if He chooses to heal me that would be more than I could ever dream for. To live a life without pain and suffering would be so wonderful. No one who suffers in pain like this wouldn’t want healing. But when we pray for it and God says no, well that is His call.


Jesus only healed one person at the pool. Many were there waiting to jump in, but only one man was healed by Jesus.

There are others that were not healed. Timothy had stomach problems and frequent illnesses. He wasn’t healed. Paul tole him to take some wine for his frequent illnesses.


I know a lot of this has been discussed in other threads and I know I’ve said it before in the past. I could mention others, but if we find only one believer in the Scriptures and they weren’t healed, that shows that healing in not in the atonement. Timothy and Paul were great men of God. If anyone could or would be healed if all it took was faith, it would be them.


So anyway, we as living sacrifices will suffer in numerous ways. And one of them is health.


So those who teach healing is in the atonement, please keep it to yourselves. All you do is reap a whole pile of condemnation of those of us who are sick. We already deal with enough.


I had a friend who told me about a month ago that I needed to pray by pleading the blood. Oh so now that’s why I’m not healed. When does the condemnation ever stop.

Sounds like you have been getting a lot of advice from live your best life now kind of believers. I relate to what you are saying, although my afflictions haven't been health related issues. One can almost say that I lived a "charmed life" before I was saved. Life was a bed of roses except for one or two situations, but after I was saved I had one disaster after another. I wouldn't change what I believe now for the life I had before, because no life is worth living if Christ is not at the center of that life. I thank God for everything (good and bad) that happens in my life because I accept it is all a part of His plan to deepen my relationship with Him and to help me grow in my faith. I always think of John 16:33 and remind myself that there will be tribulation in this world, but I can find peace in the fact that Jesus has overcome this world. Hang in there sister and be strong and courageous in your faith and trust that the Almighty is in control.

 

[Grace777x70]

I agree 100% that we should not be condemning others that are suffering in any form for whatever reason. We are to have compassion on them - not condemn them. That is the law of Christ.

I also believe that we should not be condemning ourselves nor wrongly judging others are condemning us - when they may not be. We can be sensitive to some things because of former abuses by our brothers or sisters in the Lord.

There are people that believe healing is in the work of Christ and some that don't. The reasons for both sides have been given out in many threads in the past. But to deny Christians their right to believe in the work of Christ for healing is just as destructive as people condemning others is.

We should be walking with others that are suffering ( for whatever reason ) in the way that they have chosen to go with the Lord.

We should not be trying to "lord it over other people's faith".

Romans 14:22 (NASB)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] The faith which you have, have as your own conviction before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves.


Colossians 3:12-15 (NASB)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] So, as those who have been chosen of God, holy and beloved, put on a heart of compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience;

[SUP]13 [/SUP] bearing with one another, and forgiving each other, whoever has a complaint against anyone; just as the Lord forgave you, so also should you.

[SUP]14 [/SUP] Beyond all these things put on love, which is the perfect bond of unity.

[SUP]15 [/SUP] Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, to which indeed you were called in one body; and be thankful.

 

[Desertsrose]

Hi Grace, Comments are in blue within the text.

I also believe that we should not be condemning ourselves nor wrongly judging others are condemning us - when they may not be. We can be sensitive to some things because of former abuses by our brothers or sisters in the Lord.

When someone says you don't have enough faith and that's why you're not healed, you are judging wrongfully someone else's relationship with their Savior.

When a WOF says to you that you're not speaking in tongues because.......and then list their reasons why, that's judging wrongfully. One pastor said that he noticed that those who don't speak in tongues have a 'spirit of control'. They go to the extreme and tell you to just blurt it out.

If we don't do something that only comes to us through God's grace, we can't muster it up from within ourselves. Otherwise we are faking it.

Either God has healed us or He has not. Either the Holy Spirit has given us the gift or He has not.

There are people that believe healing is in the work of Christ and some that don't. The reasons for both sides have been given out in many threads in the past. But to deny Christians their right to believe in the work of Christ for healing is just as destructive as people condemning others is.

Those who disagree that healing is in the atonement do believe in healing. The simply don't believe it's a guarantee in this life. There's no scripture that says this.

And they don't deny your right to believe whatever you believe, Grace. What I have seen is that others correct you on misapplying Scripture. So they challenge the teaching that healing is in the atonement through Scripture. They're saying that you must rightly divide the word of God. They say that your interpretation is not correct. And as a servant of God, that's what we're called to do. Check out what's being said with the word of God. We are to be like the Bereans.

We should be walking with others that are suffering ( for whatever reason ) in the way that they have chosen to go with the Lord.

This is true to a point. However, when the other person is spreading false teaching and the Lord has said to watch out for them, expose them and rebuke them, avoid them, that's what we must do.

Countering false teaching with the teachings in scripture is commended. We can't walk with those who are not walking with the Lord, those who are presenting a false Christ and preach a false gospel.

 

[Locutus]

So reading some of these posts is worship eh??

 

[joaniemarie]

Hi Spark,

I would say in reference to the OP that suffering as our spiritual act of worship is incomplete. Our spiritual act of worship can include suffering, but in and of itself, it isn’t our act of worship. So what is our spiritual act of worship?

Romans 12:1-2


Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship. And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.


It’s what Jesus said in Matthew 16.


Then Jesus said to His disciples, “If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me. For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it; but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it. For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul?


We are a living and holy sacrifice unto the Lord. Each day we reconfirm this by giving our lives over to the Lord to do as He will.


When I was first saved, we had beautiful, loving and kind mentors who were Charismatic and even probably WOF.


I was saved in December, one month later I was having pain in my gall bladder region. I was prayed for and in March my gall bladder was so diseased that it had to come out. Within 6 months I got FM and have had it for almost 40 years.


With all the love, care, concern and prayer from so many lovely believers in Christ with all the faith there is to believe that I‘d be healed, I’m not. But I believe in healing and God does heal, just not everyone.


My husband was prayed for a problem he had and he was healed. It was a genuine healing and we praise God for his healing all the time.


God decides who will be healed and who won’t. And He gives us all the grace to endure whatever comes upon us. I have other health issues now and so far I’m not healed of them. God can heal me and if He chooses to heal me that would be more than I could ever dream for. To live a life without pain and suffering would be so wonderful. No one who suffers in pain like this wouldn’t want healing. But when we pray for it and God says no, well that is His call.


Jesus only healed one person at the pool. Many were there waiting to jump in, but only one man was healed by Jesus.

There are others that were not healed. Timothy had stomach problems and frequent illnesses. He wasn’t healed. Paul tole him to take some wine for his frequent illnesses.


I know a lot of this has been discussed in other threads and I know I’ve said it before in the past. I could mention others, but if we find only one believer in the Scriptures and they weren’t healed, that shows that healing in not in the atonement. Timothy and Paul were great men of God. If anyone could or would be healed if all it took was faith, it would be them.


So anyway, we as living sacrifices will suffer in numerous ways. And one of them is health.


So those who teach healing is in the atonement, please keep it to yourselves. All you do is reap a whole pile of condemnation of those of us who are sick. We already deal with enough.


I had a friend who told me about a month ago that I needed to pray by pleading the blood. Oh so now that’s why I’m not healed. When does the condemnation ever stop.

I believe in healing in the atonement because it's Biblical. I don't believe the Bible means what it says because of what I experience or don't experience., What other believers experience or don't experience. I believe the Bible says many things that I and others have yet to experience and it's my daily goal in life to learn to be more dependent on Christ and His Word than myself and others than I was the day before. I believe this to be the grace and truth Jesus died to give each one of us.

We are all on this road and doing this life of faith Rose and we all go through tribulations in life. There should never be condemnation from Christians because we don't agree with each other on certain topics. Even the healing in the Atonement subject. So even if Joni E.Tada says she doesn't believe in healing because she prayed and was not healed that doesn't mean someone like me is going to agree with her or condemn her. My authority is not other saints in the family of God. My authority has to be the Bible and what the Holy Spirit teaches me.

There are whole groups of Christians that agree and disagree with me. I can stack them up person for person depending on the day and each one has something valid and good to say., but that is not what the Bible calls me to do. I used to do just that to see if a teaching in the Bible was right. I'd read commentaries to find what respected Godly people said. Old saints from the 18th century and before as well as the newer saints after.

Then I could also argue with people and use Bible verses to prove what I believe just as well as another Christian who disagreed and could do the exact same thing with verses that disagreed with my verses. And we both got no where. Why? Because we are not called to argue with each other and compare ourselves with ourselves and by ourselves.

The biggest change of faith for me began when MY life happened to ME. And no matter what an "authority" on the subject of Bible authority here on earth said or wrote.., he or she could not trump what I was experiencing and learning from the Bible and the Holy Spirit one on ONE. I had to go to the Rock that is higher than all of those saints and all of their experiences and my past experiences.

It comes down to one on ONE. me and the Holy Spirit and what He teaches me about Jesus. So even a saint like Joni or Hudson or Lewis can't move me because Jesus is the Rock. And when I am depending on Jesus and learning how to do it more and more in the Holy Spirit., that is when although I am weak in abilities of both body and mind and spirit., He is strong.

And I also know this same formula (as it were) He uses on His other beloved saints so there can be no condemnation coming from me towards another believer because He shows His love for and to me and teaches me how to show His love for them. But even that takes time for each of us to learn how to show the love of God in Christ to others. We are to learn to be tender hearted and forgiving just as Christ is to us in all circumstances especially when we disagree about Bible interpretation.

 

[Warrior4Christ]

Do you all see what the OP did? He started a post, fully knowing this would turn heated, and then never came back. He suckered you all into this and is probably laughing about it.

Psalm 91:1-16 (NLT)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Those who live in the shelter of the Most High will find rest in the shadow of the Almighty.
[SUP]2 [/SUP] This I declare about the LORD: He alone is my refuge, my place of safety; he is my God, and I trust him.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] For he will rescue you from every trap and protect you from deadly disease.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] He will cover you with his feathers. He will shelter you with his wings. His faithful promises are your armor and protection.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] Do not be afraid of the terrors of the night, nor the arrow that flies in the day.
[SUP]6 [/SUP] Do not dread the disease that stalks in darkness, nor the disaster that strikes at midday.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] Though a thousand fall at your side, though ten thousand are dying around you, these evils will not touch you.
[SUP]8 [/SUP] Just open your eyes, and see how the wicked are punished.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] If you make the LORD your refuge, if you make the Most High your shelter,
[SUP]10 [/SUP] no evil will conquer you; no plague will come near your home.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] For he will order his angels to protect you wherever you go.
[SUP]12 [/SUP] They will hold you up with their hands so you won’t even hurt your foot on a stone.
[SUP]13 [/SUP] You will trample upon lions and cobras; you will crush fierce lions and serpents under your feet!
[SUP]14 [/SUP] The LORD says, “I will rescue those who love me. I will protect those who trust in my name.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] When they call on me, I will answer; I will be with them in trouble. I will rescue and honor them.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] I will reward them with a long life and give them my salvation.”

 

[joaniemarie]

Do you all see what the OP did? He started a post, fully knowing this would turn heated, and then never came back. He suckered you all into this and is probably laughing about it.

Psalm 91:1-16 (NLT)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Those who live in the shelter of the Most High will find rest in the shadow of the Almighty.
[SUP]2 [/SUP] This I declare about the LORD: He alone is my refuge, my place of safety; he is my God, and I trust him.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] For he will rescue you from every trap and protect you from deadly disease.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] He will cover you with his feathers. He will shelter you with his wings. His faithful promises are your armor and protection.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] Do not be afraid of the terrors of the night, nor the arrow that flies in the day.
[SUP]6 [/SUP] Do not dread the disease that stalks in darkness, nor the disaster that strikes at midday.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] Though a thousand fall at your side, though ten thousand are dying around you, these evils will not touch you.
[SUP]8 [/SUP] Just open your eyes, and see how the wicked are punished.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] If you make the LORD your refuge, if you make the Most High your shelter,
[SUP]10 [/SUP] no evil will conquer you; no plague will come near your home.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] For he will order his angels to protect you wherever you go.
[SUP]12 [/SUP] They will hold you up with their hands so you won’t even hurt your foot on a stone.
[SUP]13 [/SUP] You will trample upon lions and cobras; you will crush fierce lions and serpents under your feet!
[SUP]14 [/SUP] The LORD says, “I will rescue those who love me. I will protect those who trust in my name.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] When they call on me, I will answer; I will be with them in trouble. I will rescue and honor them.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] I will reward them with a long life and give them my salvation.”

This is a subject close to the hearts of Christians and we discuss it often. Since I've been here long enough to know where the OP stands on the subject., it's been much nicer without him here. So I don't feel "suckered" into anything. I'm happy for the opportunity to share and will always take it when I feel moved to do so.

Psalm 91 is a psalm i hold close. Thanks for posting.

 

[Miri]

Im Pentecostal in upbringing,though I don't attend that church now. I am not WOF. But I do believe in healing and I believe it is Gods will to heal. Jesus never said no,He never sent anyone home sick. I understand the Bible doesn't promise sunshine and rainbows,but I also believe that He came to give us life more abundantly. Most people love to bring up Pauls thorn in the flesh. But he said it was given to him to keep him humble. When we start seeing so many souls saved and healed,revelations and visions that Paul experienced I'll agree that we just need to suffer it out with sickness. People like to quote the thorn in the flesh as if that is a reason for sickness when it is not. God is willing to heal.

In suffering I've seen amazing answers to prayer including healings.
Suffering brings us to an end of ourselves, that's when God can start working.

Dont knock a bit of suffering, it knocks self sufficiency out of us so we become God
sufficient.

 

[Warrior4Christ]

This is a subject close to the hearts of Christians and we discuss it often. Since I've been here long enough to know where the OP stands on the subject., it's been much nicer without him here. So I don't feel "suckered" into anything. I'm happy for the opportunity to share and will always take it when I feel moved to do so.

Psalm 91 is a psalm i hold close. Thanks for posting.

Yep totally understand. I've been here before and understand where the OP stands and it is conflict. He hates people who believe in healing and has been pretty forward about it. God Bless

 

[joaniemarie]

Yep totally understand. I've been here before and understand where the OP stands and it is conflict. He hates people who believe in healing and has been pretty forward about it. God Bless

I hear you Warrior. But I wouldn't say the OP hates anyone. I'd say he strongly disagrees with those of us who believe in healing in the atonement. (along with many others) We don't know the man's heart. This is an ongoing topic in our lives and people have strong emotions because it is so close to our hearts. Seeing others suffer and suffering ourselves is major.

And also., all the more we NEED to be able to discuss it without any kind of judgment. We need to be able to discuss it since we are supposed to be able to share and help others with the help we have been helped with. Our enemy tries to shut us all down on these heart subjects and we can't allow that to happen. All of us on both sides of the truth. We are not ignorant of his devices especially when we stop and realize who the enemy really is.

 

[Denadii]

Excuse?Isn't there only one way to understand scripture,either the person Is correct or In error?

If the Word says we are healed then it means we are healed, yet they choose to change it to mean something else rather than believe it. so you see why I said its "A good excuse than any."

 

[Denadii]

Trusting God in the midst of pain and suffering when you do not believe Gods Word when He says He healed you is not worship. Its a slap in His face.

 

[joaniemarie]

Trusting God in the midst of pain and suffering when you do not believe Gods Word when He says He healed you is not worship. Its a slap in His face.

No no Denadii., I was never never taught about healing and so I never never believed it was Biblical. If a Christian is not taught certain things from their Bible believing churches., and even are taught NOT to believe certain interpretations of Scripture., they are being faithful to what they have been taught. We can only know what we know.

Is it any wonder the Bible says that the feet of those who bring the truth are beautiful? Is it any wonder why God has called and given the gift of teaching and preaching to certain of His children? Also, John prayed in 3 John 2 Beloved, I pray that in all respects you may prosper and be in good health, just as your soul prospers. There were believers then too who were prospering in their Bible knowledge and spiritual revelation but didn't know to allow Him to prosper them in their lives here as well.

It takes time to see Jesus unfolded in every aspect of our lives. We are creatures of time and space as well as spiritual beings.
Living by faith and not by sight is an art taught by the Holy Spirit that none of us has perfected yet.

 

[Denadii]

No no Denadii., I was never never taught about healing and so I never never believed it was Biblical. If a Christian is not taught certain things from their Bible believing churches., and even are taught NOT to believe certain interpretations of Scripture., they are being faithful to what they have been taught. We can only know what we know.

Is it any wonder the Bible says that the feet of those who bring the truth are beautiful? Is it any wonder why God has called and given the gift of teaching and preaching to certain of His children? Also, John prayed in 3 John 2 Beloved, I pray that in all respects you may prosper and be in good health, just as your soul prospers. There were believers then too who were prospering in their Bible knowledge and spiritual revelation but didn't know to allow Him to prosper them in their lives here as well.

It takes time to see Jesus unfolded in every aspect of our lives. We are creatures of time and space as well as spiritual beings.
Living by faith and not by sight is an art taught by the Holy Spirit that none of us has perfected yet.

OK Don't forget though, the feet of the one that was given to you as teacher, and counselor. The Holy Spirit can teach you just as much as He can teach your "Bible believing" Pastor. Maybe more.
Thank you for your blessing too. God is blessing me continually. Financially, he has cancelled out almost a hundred thousand dollars in debt for me. I mean literally canceled the debts. By Jesus stripes I was healed of heart disease, hypothyroidism, and sleep apnea...Should I keep going? LOL Our God is such a good God!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[oldethennew]

yes, He heals or not or as He feels is necessary for us to glorify Him in our own individual situations,..

 

[Denadii]

yes, He heals or not or as He feels is necessary for us to glorify Him in our own individual situations,..

That's not what the bible says....The bible says we are healed by Jesus stripes. Or because of the stripes Jesus took for our healing. Not if, not who, not situational....We are healed. We receive healing or we do not based on what we decide to believe. If you believe you were healed by Jesus stripes you will reach out and take the healing (receive it). If you choose not to believe it you will leave it on the table. You will not reach out and take it(receive it).

Believe it is a choice. Receive it is reaching out to take it. Simply that. God never ever refused to heal anybody. I resent anybody accusing Him of refusing to heal anybody. You do not blame God for your choice.

 

[Rosemaryx]

No no Denadii., I was never never taught about healing and so I never never believed it was Biblical. If a Christian is not taught certain things from their Bible believing churches., and even are taught NOT to believe certain interpretations of Scripture., they are being faithful to what they have been taught. We can only know what we know.

Is it any wonder the Bible says that the feet of those who bring the truth are beautiful? Is it any wonder why God has called and given the gift of teaching and preaching to certain of His children? Also, John prayed in 3 John 2 Beloved, I pray that in all respects you may prosper and be in good health, just as your soul prospers. There were believers then too who were prospering in their Bible knowledge and spiritual revelation but didn't know to allow Him to prosper them in their lives here as well.

It takes time to see Jesus unfolded in every aspect of our lives. We are creatures of time and space as well as spiritual beings.
Living by faith and not by sight is an art taught by the Holy Spirit that none of us has perfected yet.

Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed." ...xox...

 

[oldethennew]

That's not what the bible says....The bible says we are healed by Jesus stripes. Or because of the stripes Jesus took for our healing. Not if, not who, not situational....We are healed. We receive healing or we do not based on what we decide to believe. If you believe you were healed by Jesus stripes you will reach out and take the healing (receive it). If you choose not to believe it you will leave it on the table. You will not reach out and take it(receive it).

Believe it is a choice. Receive it is reaching out to take it. Simply that. God never ever refused to heal anybody. I resent anybody accusing Him of refusing to heal anybody. You do not blame God for your choice.

============================================

you are either putting on the dog, or you are a great pretender/deceiver, or one of satan's
high-up stooges.
of what the 'dark-side' teaches', and tries to persuade the world of...this is so 'sick and demonic'...
for your words are totally 'un-Biblical...

 

[Denadii]

Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed." ...xox...

Hmmm...Where does that leave us? We see the word in the Bible, and we have seen Him,for He is the Word..Then we believe what we have read, we are believing Him because we have seen Him......Ha! Thomas wasn't so bad after all! LOLOL