Teach Against God's Commandments and Still Be Saved

[beta]

I am puzzled as to how people seem convinced we should/must keep God's Commandments yet they definitely 'kick out the Sabbath' under all kinds of excuses...even though JESUS kept it all His life.
Why is that so ?
They don't want to remember it - they don't want to keep it holy.
Please don't go listing all the reasons why you believe it's not for Christians - there is no such biblical statement ! It was made for MAN.

'The 10 are ONE whole law' given by God personally and nothing else/other law added onto them Deut 5v22. They are spiritual and eternal Rom 7.and we are told that to break 'one' is to break all...so why do Christians do it ?
The reason I'm picking out the sabbath is because it is the only commandment blatantly rejected, hated and preached against in direct opposition to scripture.

 

[gotime]

I am puzzled as to how people seem convinced we should/must keep God's Commandments yet they definitely 'kick out the Sabbath' under all kinds of excuses...even though JESUS kept it all His life.
Why is that so ?
They don't want to remember it - they don't want to keep it holy.
Please don't go listing all the reasons why you believe it's not for Christians - there is no such biblical statement ! It was made for MAN.

'The 10 are ONE whole law' given by God personally and nothing else/other law added onto them Deut 5v22. They are spiritual and eternal Rom 7.and we are told that to break 'one' is to break all...so why do Christians do it ?
The reason I'm picking out the sabbath is because it is the only commandment blatantly rejected, hated and preached against in direct opposition to scripture.

I have a feeling its because of false foundations that they reject it. and I am almost convinced that Sabbath keepers have not helped the situation. Not all of course but many have made it sound legalistic in nature.

 

[Grace777x70]

I know, I see such animosity when we speak of Grace, but it is God who is Gracious. It is His grace that abounds, it is His grace by which we can be saved. Is that Hyper Grace??, too much Grace? I see words like "those gracers" used as an insult. But it is God's Grace. How can Grace that is all sufficient be too much?

Unfortunately this is true. The malice that some have towards the grace of God is unbelieveable. Sometimes the understanding of the grace of God conflicts with what some church teaching that have been taught and so they are antagonistic against it.

Sometimes there are mis-understandings about what is really being said and I can understand that being done.

Then there are some that just plain deceitfully mis-represent what is being said. For example - I have had some say that the so-called "those gracers" don't believe in repentance which many have shown multiple times as being not true. Yet, some still slanderously lie and say the complete opposite.

These types I don't interact with anymore as it just causes strife and division.

Also we need to be able to communicate in a way that uses sound words so that things are not mis-represented. The Lord will help with that wisdom.

Unfortunately some in their malice and slandering maintain their bad behavior and continually insult others. We can't force them to act according to who they really are in Christ. This type of foul behavior is not who they are in Christ so it's best to not interact with them and just bless them and leave them in the hands of the Lord. He will be faithful to all of us.

 

[Grace777x70]

Thank you Brother. I appreciate the time taken to elaborate for me.

I must say that you have given a great rundown of the law here. And I can say that I can heartily agree with just about everything you have said here. I can agree with the reasons you have given for the law and that we are no longer under the law and bound by it. I agree that we are not saved by observing it etc. Those things are clear in the scripture.

I am just trying to understand where it is that we differ exactly.

see while I agree on the reason for the law, I also maintain that Christians when they have learned the truth will in deed shew the law in their actions and lives. That of course in my view includes the keeping of the Sabbath. So
I am trying to find where it is that we diverge and why. not sure yet.

Thank you. That was a great Christ-like response.

I believe that the life/law of Christ in believers will display the true intent of the Law of Moses. For example - the law of Moses says that not to commit adultery. Jesus spoke of having lust is breaking the law.

The law of Christ Himself in us will manifest in not having lust for others. Jesus elevated the Law of Moses to a 2.0 version.

This will not be a carnal keeping of a law but a manifestation of His Life. There is a subtle but real difference.

Jesus is the Sabbath rest for us. We rest from our own self efforts and rest in what He has done. The Sabbath speaks of Christ Himself as He is Lord of the Sabbath. So, the true Sabbath is Christ Himself - not in a carnal keeping of a day as set up in the law of Moses - as it was a picture or as Paul called it a shadow of the true that was to come - Christ Himself is the real substance.

So, the real keeping of the Sabbath in making it holy or set apart is to believe in what Christ has done and cease from our own self-efforts for life and living. This is how the Sabbath is a picture or shadow of Christ Himself.

People are free ( especially those that have a Jewish lineage because it is a part of their culture ) to observe a day or a feast however their traditions that they have adopted have taken on.

Personally I love to listen to some Jewish believers because they can have some great insight on how Christ is the fulfillment of all things and they can use the law and prophets and their own Jewish culture to reveal Christ to us.

Where the perversion of the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ comes in is when they say "You must keep the Sabbath as in the law of Moses or you are disobeying God and are sinning".

 

[88]

Now, at first glance that title may seem provocative but there is a verse that basically says the same thing. That verse is Matthew 5:19.

Matthew 5:19 King James Version (KJV)

19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

It almost seems as if people's eyes just scan over that verse. However, it is quite a profound verse for those that come from a legalistic background of sorts. Someone teach against God's holy and righteous law, and they still make it into the kingdom of heaven? Their bubble must be bursting.

With this in mind, how many people do you suppose are indeed your brethren in Christ whom you may have deemed unsaved? Is not His grace sufficient, Christ's sacrifice established? Is not Christ our High Priest able to save us completely because He lives forever interceding on our behalf?

Lets not be quick to throw sheep out of the fold because we disagree on matters, but let us hold unity that exalts Christ. Some might call this compromise, but wherein then is your love? Did not Christ invite those in who are in the wrong? All manner of sinner, liars included. Therefore, people may not hold all the truth, and may yet hold onto one truth. That is, Christ and Him crucified. It is in this truth that unity may be held.

Children of God, unite.

*** I believe the emphasis Christ is making is on the responsibility of Teachers of His Word***although I agree with what you say, nevertheless we must honor God's Word or face many problems...

 

[beta]

There seems to be a disconnect with the real issue here for some.

The law, works, grace, salvation, faith are all in a context.

Love is the issue here. and the law is fulfilled in love. Its not a case of one works for their salvation but rather works are a byproduct of salvation.

People who love self over others will steal from others. People who have the love of God in their hearts wont steal.

The last 6 commandments will be kept by anyone who gives in to the Spirit. even If they don't know who God is. even if they Don't believe in God. God causes it to rain on both the righteous and the wicked.

The first 3 will be kept by anyone who gives into the Spirit and knows God.

The 4th will be kept by anyone who understands what God has done at creation on the 7th day and even more so when they understand the cross.

but all 10 are based on one word, Love. Always was from the beginning and always will be.

Israel was given the law to show they do not love, and they could not love in the way God expects without trusting God.

The law shows sin brokenness a lack of the image of God. Did then does now. if you are not matching up to it now then it says you are broken and need fixing. Only God can fix you. And that is all 10.

I agree !!! There will be no unity among people until we are prepared to RESTORE what we have broken - and we need GOD's help in doing so.
'RESTORE to GOD HIS Holy Sabbath in the Spirit' and we will become whole and ONE with Him and each other !

 

[beta]

I have a feeling its because of false foundations that they reject it. and I am almost convinced that Sabbath keepers have not helped the situation. Not all of course but many have made it sound legalistic in nature.

I agree - some are still clinging to OT rituals and observances which are actually CHANGED in CHRIST...and that is not helping to create 'Unity IN Christ'.
We are 'in transition from old to new and it is hard to move away from physical habits to new spiritual understanding - and being impatient (still) we flare up and argue. We must learn patience - Jesus said so.

 

[Yahshua]

being baptized in water is not in line with the torah.

when did jesus talk to a gentile about his salvation. without context , only shows blindness, then the question would be what are some blind to.

Royalscot, I'm sorry but I don't understand what you're saying. And I don't know what your point is with regard to what I've shared. Can you clarify for me?

 

[Stephen63]

There is no attempt to rationalize and excuse sin, simply reading the text for what it says plainly. How is it that someone can teach against His law, and even disobey it ("break one of the least... teach others to do so... shall be called the least in the kingdom.") and still be in the kingdom of Heaven?

I am not taking an antinomianism stance, nor arguing for such. It bursts the bubble of the self-righteous because it, as scripture often does, addresses their self-righteousness head on, revealing that we are saved by grace and not works. To think that a person can speak against such commandments, break them even, and still make it into Heaven though being called "the least", should be mind blowing to someone in favor of Legalism.

The disagreeing on matters is tied in because while people may disagree on certain doctrine (or in this case, teach and not do certain commandments, granted the verse) they still made it into Heaven. So this person while they may have been in the wrong doctrinally speaking, they are still your brethren. It is a call to unity. Yes, point out egregious doctrine, but to go to the lengths of defamation and labeling a heretic is too far. They are still a fellow believer, a child of God.

There is no endorsement to disobey Christ, or a justification to. Its a statement that it happens, and someone is still saved though they are called "the least." What lack of security can a believer preach when even those such as the person in Matthew 5:19 is saved?

I don't have a problem with the "least" of these commandments..... My issue is with the "great" ones, like obedience, faith without works is dead, sanctification, & the like.

I also have issues with replacing grace doctrine with hypergrace, faith with another faith that requires nothing, no repentance, no conviction..... all major doctrinal issues, core teachings to real salvation.

The part in blue shows your purpose in creating this thread.

But if it wasn't there, I'd still know the purpose of this thread, because it's all Hypergracers talk about, this self-righteousness by works.

Replacing grace with hypergrace or OSAS is truly self-righteousness. Self-righteousness requires no works at all to make it so.

 

[Stephen63]

Unfortunately this is true. The malice that some have towards the grace of God is unbelieveable. Sometimes the understanding of the grace of God conflicts with what some church teaching that have been taught and so they are antagonistic against it.

Those that replace grace with hypergrace are the ones with malice towards it.

Sometimes there are mis-understandings about what is really being said and I can understand that being done.

Then there are some that just plain deceitfully mis-represent what is being said. For example - I have had some say that the so-called "those gracers" don't believe in repentance which many have shown multiple times as being not true. Yet, some still slanderously lie and say the complete opposite.

Hypergracers believe in repentance, just not the right one. Even then they only do it ONCE.

These types I don't interact with anymore as it just causes strife and division.

Also we need to be able to communicate in a way that uses sound words so that things are not mis-represented. The Lord will help with that wisdom.

Unfortunately some in their malice and slandering maintain their bad behavior and continually insult others. We can't force them to act according to who they really are in Christ. This type of foul behavior is not who they are in Christ so it's best to not interact with them and just bless them and leave them in the hands of the Lord. He will be faithful to all of us.

Calling others "works-based", "works salvationists", & the like is slander & insulting.

When I correct you, it's not foul behavior.

Making yourself to be a victim & always right implies arrogance, self-righteousnessness, & a desire to control others.

Exposing your false teachings IS biblical.

 

[Yahshua]

I don't have a problem with the "least" of these commandments..... My issue is with the "great" ones, like obedience, faith without works is dead, sanctification, & the like.

I also have issues with replacing grace doctrine with hypergrace, faith with another faith that requires nothing, no repentance, no conviction..... all major doctrinal issues, core teachings to real salvation.

The part in blue shows your purpose in creating this thread.

But if it wasn't there, I'd still know the purpose of this thread, because it's all Hypergracers talk about, this self-righteousness by works.

Replacing grace with hypergrace or OSAS is truly self-righteousness. Self-righteousness requires no works at all to make it so.

And my original point was "why should any of God's people pursue, or at minimum be ok with, just being the least in the kingdom of God when Christ clearly explains how to be seen as greater?"

Why not strive for the greater prize? (Philippians 3:14)

 

[gb9]

the thing is, we are saved BY grace THROUGH faith FOR good works. the above 3 posts basically state that if we have enough faith and do enough works, then God extends grace toward us. now, that sounds rational , that sounds reasonable, it makes sense.

but, it is NOT Biblical. the letter of Titus explains this very well.

 

[beta]

And my original point was "why should any of God's people pursue, or at minimum be ok with, just being the least in the kingdom of God when Christ clearly explains how to be seen as greater?"

Why not strive for the greater prize? (Philippians 3:14)

Indeed we should not be content with 'just squeezing into the Kingdom because the stigma of being the 'least and a vessel to dishonour' will be for eternity and obvious to all. Perhaps that would be some kind of eternal punishment for speaking against anything God says and inciting others to disobedience ? We will have to see what scripture will further reveal on this.

 

[Yahshua]

Indeed we should not be content with 'just squeezing into the Kingdom because the stigma of being the 'least and a vessel to dishonour' will be for eternity and obvious to all. Perhaps that would be some kind of eternal punishment for speaking against anything God says and inciting others to disobedience ? We will have to see what scripture will further reveal on this.

I'm thinking the reward will translate into how "close" one is to the lamb and God (so to say); of how brilliant the person shines in the kingdom. We know Moses was emanating light after spending personal time with God (Exodus 34:29). And Paul speaks about the different "splendor" our new bodies will have, relating them to how different the sun, moon and stars each have a different brightness (1 Corinthians 15:41). Christ said to some who endure they will become "pillars" in [God's temple] going no more out" (Revelation 3:12).

Of course this may not be the full picture, but it seems to hint at what may happen.

 

[BenFTW]

I don't have a problem with the "least" of these commandments..... My issue is with the "great" ones, like obedience, faith without works is dead, sanctification, & the like.

I also have issues with replacing grace doctrine with hypergrace, faith with another faith that requires nothing, no repentance, no conviction..... all major doctrinal issues, core teachings to real salvation.

The part in blue shows your purpose in creating this thread.

But if it wasn't there, I'd still know the purpose of this thread, because it's all Hypergracers talk about, this self-righteousness by works.

Replacing grace with hypergrace or OSAS is truly self-righteousness. Self-righteousness requires no works at all to make it so.

The intent was a call to unity, to not be quick to dismiss brethren whom we disagree with and forsake them (as even in Matthew 5:19, people have it wrong yet make it into the Kingdom).

 

[Grace777x70]

Post # 70 has been reported for violation of the rules in CC concerning the use of the term asked by CC to stop.

BUT maturity and not attacking those is what is needed. here is what we get when the "hyper grace" topic is brought up:

1. your not saved
2. attacks
3. false teacher
4. infraction submitted
5. request for account to be closed
6. name calling
7. "hyper grace" brought into every post when not even the topic of origin

I have given you 7 reasons why this topic is not good for CC Thread and I have yet to find one reason for it.
Admin and the moderators will no longer allow this to continue . And appropriate action will be taken if a member or guest starts a topic on "hyper grace " or Preachers who teach it. remember those who attack each other many of them call themselves christians yet we eat and devour each other. enough is enough. I am not going to dress you personally at this time... You have an opportunity to let it go or CC Admin and Moderators will take action.

God bless,

very respectfully,

CS1

 

[BenFTW]

Those that replace grace with hypergrace are the ones with malice towards it.
Hypergracers believe in repentance, just not the right one. Even then they only do it ONCE.

Calling others "works-based", "works salvationists", & the like is slander & insulting.

When I correct you, it's not foul behavior.

Making yourself to be a victim & always right implies arrogance, self-righteousnessness, & a desire to control others.

Exposing your false teachings IS biblical.

Considering the definition of repentance, a change of mind, I would hardly think that such believers only do it once. Surely they are renewing their mind all of the time, as they continue to grow in the grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ.

Stephen, you post on hyper-grace all of the time. Granted it is against hyper-grace, but nevertheless it is a topic that you haven't been able to move past ever since the moderators of the site said to stop posting about it. You continue to make threads about it, albeit with veiled attempts to bait in grace believers to defend it.

Maybe stop with the baiting? Maybe stop harassing believers in every thread not even related to hyper-grace and juxtaposing yourself in opposition to them? In fact you're basically doing what OnceFallen and CS1 have stated not to do, bringing hyper-grace into every thread. I see it all the time, Grace777x70 posts and somehow you always seem to decipher some hyper-grace meaning and then address it. Even if it does follow in-line with such a set of beliefs, you're acting like a stalker, just waiting for the moment to pounce.

 

[beta]

The intent was a call to unity, to not be quick to dismiss brethren whom we disagree with and forsake them (as even in Matthew 5:19, people have it wrong yet make it into the Kingdom).

Yes seems they do ...but what as ? a vessel to dishonour ?
The call to correction and godly growth is as urgent as ever if we want these misguided people to have some kind of pleasant eternal life....and not bear eternal shame for their persistent misconduct. It's all part of loving your neighbour if they only knew it !

 

[Grandpa]

I am puzzled as to how people seem convinced we should/must keep God's Commandments yet they definitely 'kick out the Sabbath' under all kinds of excuses...even though JESUS kept it all His life.
Why is that so ?
They don't want to remember it - they don't want to keep it holy.
Please don't go listing all the reasons why you believe it's not for Christians - there is no such biblical statement ! It was made for MAN.

'The 10 are ONE whole law' given by God personally and nothing else/other law added onto them Deut 5v22. They are spiritual and eternal Rom 7.and we are told that to break 'one' is to break all...so why do Christians do it ?
The reason I'm picking out the sabbath is because it is the only commandment blatantly rejected, hated and preached against in direct opposition to scripture.

What's the difference between a Spiritual Law and a Carnal Commandment???

See Matthew 5 for perspective.

Matthew 5:21 [FONT=&quot]Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:

[/FONT]That's a carnal commandment. Don't kill. People can follow that by their own strength and their own understanding, carnally.

Matthew 5:22 [FONT=&quot]But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

[/FONT]That is a Spiritual concept, the fulfillment of this is by Gods Spiritual Law, namely Love.


So you can see that to follow a carnal commandment you can do by your own strength and understanding.

To follow a Spiritual Law you are going to need the Power of Christ to fulfill.


Paul explained it a little differently. He said the letter is unto death but the Spirit is unto Life.


Now we can look at the Sabbath in this same light.

To observe a saturday sabbath is following a carnal commandment. You can fulfill it by your own strength and understanding.

To Rest in Christ is following a Spiritual Law. In fact, it is THE Spiritual Law. You can't fulfill it by your own strength and understanding.

John 15:5 [FONT=&quot]I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

[/FONT]Meaning you can't produce spiritual fruit in your life by following a carnal commandment. You can only produce spiritual fruit in your life by resting in Christ.

 

[beta]

What's the difference between a Spiritual Law and a Carnal Commandment???

See Matthew 5 for perspective.

Matthew 5:21 Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:

That's a carnal commandment. Don't kill. People can follow that by their own strength and their own understanding, carnally.

Matthew 5:22But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

That is a Spiritual concept, the fulfillment of this is by Gods Spiritual Law, namely Love.


So you can see that to follow a carnal commandment you can do by your own strength and understanding.

To follow a Spiritual Law you are going to need the Power of Christ to fulfill.


Paul explained it a little differently. He said the letter is unto death but the Spirit is unto Life.


Now we can look at the Sabbath in this same light.

To observe a saturday sabbath is following a carnal commandment. You can fulfill it by your own strength and understanding.

To Rest in Christ is following a Spiritual Law. In fact, it is THE Spiritual Law. You can't fulfill it by your own strength and understanding.

John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Meaning you can't produce spiritual fruit in your life by following a carnal commandment. You can only produce spiritual fruit in your life by resting in Christ.

So I guess according to your understanding JESUS only kept Gods/His Fathers CARNAL commandment re the sabbath and discard it after His death ? what happened to Him being 'the same yesterday, today and forever ? and the scriptures pointing to a future sabbath ? It's ok to cut the tree of life from it's roots or the branches from the tree and STILL produce holy fruit ?
Which Jesus are you talking about...the one who starts from the foundation as we also should, or the one who teaches you nothing but rest and idleness ? Jesus warns of false Christs who deceive.
Scripture says 'first comes the physical THEN the spiritual. DON'T reject your simple beginning, it's your foundation in God.