Teach Against God's Commandments and Still Be Saved

[beta]

Anyone not sealed,by the Holy Spirit is going to hell.

Even if they mouth the right words like the Pharisees did.

It's not how,much,can,they get wrong. It is, are they born again or just going through the motions?

So what is your take on hell ? is it a place where the wicked are burnt up or tortured for eternitry ?
neither compares with Mat 5v19 .
We know there are lots of scriptures that say the wicked will go to hell - yet Mat 5 says different....is it not wicked to speak against God's commandments and teach others so ? so how can they end up in heaven ? what are we not understanding ?

 

[Dan58]

This, obviously, is not an endorsement to teach against God's holiness and righteous standards. Only an observation that one can do so, and yet still be in the kingdom of Heaven.

It depends, Matthew 5:19 says that someone who teaches others to break the 'least' of the commandments, meaning the shortest or trivial details of the law, will also lessen their place in heaven. In other words, the minutiae part or meaning of the law is important to teach and keep. But of course, the blatant intent to disregard and teach against the greater intent of the law, could be construed as the direct opposite of the gospel message, and there's no lesser spot in heaven for false teachers. "Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity" (Matthew 7:22&23). So it seems that a degree of innocent ignorance may be tolerated, but not intentional hypocrisy, in which case; "It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God" (Hebrews 10:31)

 

[Yahshua]

I think it's rather silly to note the difficulty of following 613 laws when there are tens of thousands of laws established in America alone, divided into categories like federal and state; statues and ordinances, etc. And as of January 2010 there were about 40,627 laws add to america...and that was 7 years ago. America has so many laws that there isn't an official number.

And yet not one thought is given to the difficulty in adhering to all of those laws...and why...because we know - with the most basic common sense telling us this - that not all of these laws apply to everyone all of the time; that it's based on the situation the law was written around (even though every single law written in the U.S. Code remains in effect across the entire land). How is such sorcery possible? Well one simply has to realize that they must meet the conditions of said law for it to apply, and if one doesn't meet the conditions then the law doesn't apply to said person.

For instance, there are about 20,000 laws just for governing the use of guns alone. But if one doesn't own a gun well then "magically" these 20,000 gun laws don't apply to said individual, though they're still in effect.

Here's another example; if one doesn't operate a motor vehicle, "supernaturally" they're not governed by any state motor vehicle laws even though those laws remain in effect. Not one "jot or tittle" is nullified from the driving law just because it doesn't apply to a person who hasn't met the condition, nor does it mean a pedestrian has "failed" to follow those laws. Those *specific laws* just don't apply to that person's situation.

That's how laws work, universally, no matter the kingdom we're talking about. But for some reason when it comes to understanding the laws of God in the same way, we stop *thinking* reasonably and fall back into our doctrinal talking points.

The laws established for God's kingdom have worked the same exact way in function; literally articulated in the scriptures the same exact way. If the conditions were met then the law applied, but if the conditions weren't met then they didn't apply, yet such didn't nullify the law from the scrolls. For Example:

Law: Head up to Jerusalem to worship 3 times a year during the feasts.

Conditions: Males, able-bodied, in the land, temple existing (i.e. the place God chose).

Who didn't these conditions apply to, even back then? Women; sick men; poor men; young boys; men not even in the land to go. This is before Christ by the way.

Did this mean they failed at keeping those laws? Of course not, that's silly. It meant that specific law didn't apply to them in those situations because the conditions weren't met. This was true even back then because that's how laws work. Quite amazingly simple. We know Christ kept the law perfectly, yet common sense will tell us that even he *never* kept the laws governing women because he wasn't a woman. He never kept land-owner laws either because he didn't own any land or slaves. Certain laws of God simply didn't apply to Christ. Does this means he was partial with God's law? Of course not, that's silly to think. Does this mean he didn't keep the whole law? Of course not. He obeyed what applied to him.

Some laws governed what animal one was to bring to the temple as sacrifice, but if they couldn't meet those requirements (because they were poor, for instance) they could bring something smaller. Some laws were only for the priests. Some laws were only for women. Some were only for men. Just like in our time with our American laws. So when discussing what no longer applies after Christ *changed the condition*, it's irresponsible to make blanketed statements about all of God's law. Rather, we must study to see which laws no longer apply, just like the Elders of Acts did in chapter 15.

The Elders in the book of Acts understood this when they were "picking & choosing" which laws grafted-in gentiles were to follow vs. which they didn't have to follow in Acts 15 (post-Cross, by the way). Were the elders being partial? Were they being legalistic? Of course not, that's silly.

Peter, especially, in his letter warned readers that if they didn't understand these basics they would *seriously* misunderstand Paul's letters and twist his words to their own detriment because Paul's writing is difficult without the basics.

 

[stonesoffire]

Has anyone mentioned the new commandment that Jesus spoke of?

 

[beta]

I think it's rather silly to note the difficulty of following 613 laws when there are tens of thousands of laws established in America alone, divided into categories like federal and state; statues and ordinances, etc. And as of January 2010 there were about 40,627 laws add to america...and that was 7 years ago. America has so many laws that there isn't an official number.

And yet not one thought is given to the difficulty in adhering to all of those laws...and why...because we know - with the most basic common sense telling us this - that not all of these laws apply to everyone all of the time; that it's based on the situation the law was written around (even though every single law written in the U.S. Code remains in effect across the entire land). How is such sorcery possible? Well one simply has to realize that they must meet the conditions of said law for it to apply, and if one doesn't meet the conditions then the law doesn't apply to said person.

For instance, there are about 20,000 laws just for governing the use of guns alone. But if one doesn't own a gun well then "magically" these 20,000 gun laws don't apply to said individual, though they're still in effect.

Here's another example; if one doesn't operate a motor vehicle, "supernaturally" they're not governed by any state motor vehicle laws even though those laws remain in effect. Not one "jot or tittle" is nullified from the driving law just because it doesn't apply to a person who hasn't met the condition, nor does it mean a pedestrian has "failed" to follow those laws. Those *specific laws* just don't apply to that person's situation.

That's how laws work, universally, no matter the kingdom we're talking about. But for some reason when it comes to understanding the laws of God in the same way, we stop *thinking* reasonably and fall back into our doctrinal talking points.

The laws established for God's kingdom have worked the same exact way in function; literally articulated in the scriptures the same exact way. If the conditions were met then the law applied, but if the conditions weren't met then they didn't apply, yet such didn't nullify the law from the scrolls. For Example:

Law: Head up to Jerusalem to worship 3 times a year during the feasts.

Conditions: Males, able-bodied, in the land, temple existing (i.e. the place God chose).

Who didn't these conditions apply to, even back then? Women; sick men; poor men; young boys; men not even in the land to go. This is before Christ by the way.

Did this mean they failed at keeping those laws? Of course not, that's silly. It meant that specific law didn't apply to them in those situations because the conditions weren't met. This was true even back then because that's how laws work. Quite amazingly simple. We know Christ kept the law perfectly, yet common sense will tell us that even he *never* kept the laws governing women because he wasn't a woman. He never kept land-owner laws either because he didn't own any land or slaves. Certain laws of God simply didn't apply to Christ. Does this means he was partial with God's law? Of course not, that's silly to think. Does this mean he didn't keep the whole law? Of course not. He obeyed what applied to him.

Some laws governed what animal one was to bring to the temple as sacrifice, but if they couldn't meet those requirements (because they were poor, for instance) they could bring something smaller. Some laws were only for the priests. Some laws were only for women. Some were only for men. Just like in our time with our American laws. So when discussing what no longer applies after Christ *changed the condition*, it's irresponsible to make blanketed statements about all of God's law. Rather, we must study to see which laws no longer apply, just like the Elders of Acts did in chapter 15.

The Elders in the book of Acts understood this when they were "picking & choosing" which laws grafted-in gentiles were to follow vs. which they didn't have to follow in Acts 15 (post-Cross, by the way). Were the elders being partial? Were they being legalistic? Of course not, that's silly.

Peter, especially, in his letter warned readers that if they didn't understand these basics they would *seriously* misunderstand Paul's letters and twist his words to their own detriment because Paul's writing is difficult without the basics.

I see you are focusing on OT laws - but they are not what JESUS was teaching on - rather it was the Commandments of God His Father , which are 'to love God and neighbour - and THESE apply to ALL people at ALL times in ALL places !
No excuses - no wriggling out of any !!!

 

[Yahshua]

I see you are focusing on OT laws - but they are not what JESUS was teaching on - rather it was the Commandments of God His Father , which are 'to love God and neighbour - and THESE apply to ALL people at ALL times in ALL places !
No excuses - no wriggling out of any !!!

Sister I think you missed the point I was making. A member here noted that it was "hilarious" to claim that it wasn't hard to keep 613 laws in the Torah (his point being that it's impossible to keep the whole law), and I was putting the law in perspective, showing that we have far more laws in our respective lands...and also that even back in OT times there were *specific conditions* that must be met for certain law to apply to certain individuals. My focus is on how the law of God was always merciful, and how not one jot or title passes from the law until all is fulfilled.

With regard to Christ; he taught the law of God (the law that came through Moses) in opposition to the tradition of the pharisees (that came through their own "takanot and ma'asim" {i.e. the adding to and taking away from God's law} of the pharisees). Christ taught Torah until the day he died and also after he resurrected.


Love God - Deuteronomy 6:4-6
4 "Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one! 5 "You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might. 6 "These words, which I am commanding you today, shall be on your heart.

Love Neighbor - Leviticus 19:18
18 You shall not take vengeance or bear a grudge against the sons of your own people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the Lord.

 

[royalscot]

Sister I think you missed the point I was making. A member here noted that it was "hilarious" to claim that it wasn't hard to keep 613 laws in the Torah (his point being that it's impossible to keep the whole law), and I was putting the law in perspective, showing that we have far more laws in our respective lands...and also that even back in OT times there were *specific conditions* that must be met for certain law to apply to certain individuals. My focus is on how the law of God was always merciful, and how not one jot or title passes from the law until all is fulfilled.

With regard to Christ; he taught the law of God (the law that came through Moses) in opposition to the tradition of the pharisees (that came through their own "takanot and ma'asim" {i.e. the adding to and taking away from God's law} of the pharisees). Christ taught Torah until the day he died and also after he resurrected.


Love God - Deuteronomy 6:4-6
4 "Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one! 5 "You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might. 6 "These words, which I am commanding you today, shall be on your heart.

Love Neighbor - Leviticus 19:18
18 You shall not take vengeance or bear a grudge against the sons of your own people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the Lord.

being baptized in water is not in line with the torah.

when did jesus talk to a gentile about his salvation. without context , only shows blindness, then the question would be what are some blind to.

 

[gotime]

Yes...Christians have died to the Law of Moses, been released from the Law and not under the law in any form - including the 10 commandments.

Of course now the carnal mind will say "Does that mean we can murder someone now?"

No, it means we live by the law of love, the law of faith , the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus, the law of liberty in Christ - the law of Christ Himself in us - all of which if we walk by the spirit will not lead us to fulfill the lusts of the flesh to do "it's" desires.

I am curious to understand your point here better.

My understanding is that the law and the prophets was based on love from the beginning. If you have the time could you tell me why you think the law was given? Cheers mate.

 

[DiscipleDave]

Now, at first glance that title may seem provocative but there is a verse that basically says the same thing. That verse is Matthew 5:19.

Matthew 5:19 King James Version (KJV)

19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

It almost seems as if people's eyes just scan over that verse. However, it is quite a profound verse for those that come from a legalistic background of sorts. Someone teach against God's holy and righteous law, and they still make it into the kingdom of heaven? Their bubble must be bursting.

With this in mind, how many people do you suppose are indeed your brethren in Christ whom you may have deemed unsaved? Is not His grace sufficient, Christ's sacrifice established? Is not Christ our High Priest able to save us completely because He lives forever interceding on our behalf?

Lets not be quick to throw sheep out of the fold because we disagree on matters, but let us hold unity that exalts Christ. Some might call this compromise, but wherein then is your love? Did not Christ invite those in who are in the wrong? All manner of sinner, liars included. Therefore, people may not hold all the truth, and may yet hold onto one truth. That is, Christ and Him crucified. It is in this truth that unity may be held.

Children of God, unite.

Do we listen to what people say and teach or what the Word of God says and teaches?

People of this generation teach that His commandments are the 10 Commandments. And anyone who is living prior to Jesus starting the NEW covenant with His death and resurrection is subject to the 10 commandments. (Jesus obeyed all the 600+ laws of that time being that He Himself was in the Old Covenant) If you were to ask Jesus during the time He was alive how must i be Saved, He could only answer how that person can be SAVED right then and there, and that is by and through the old Covenant, because at the time the man asked Jesus how to be Saved, the NEW covenant had not yet begun, therefore Jesus could not have answered that man "Believe that I rose from the dead" when He had not done that thing yet. So Jesus answered that man correctly being under the old Covenant.

But does Scriptures PLAINLY teach us what His Commandments are? Why yes they plainly and clearly do. But you see this generation has eyes but can't see, they have ears but refuse to hear the TRUTH. Here is Scriptures that plainly tell us what His Commandments are, which this generation refuse to understand.

1Jn 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

EVERY verse in the New Testament that says and teaches "Keep His commandments" comes from the Apostle John. And now we see the very same Apostle teaching us plainly what His Commandments ARE. Woe to those who teach things contrary to what the Apostles of Jesus Christ taught. If they say "Keep His Commandments" mean something other than what the Apostle John says they are, who are you going to listen to? The Apostle or someone born in the Last Days?
Maybe you are not getting what you ask for in prayer because you are busy trying to keep the 10 commandment given to the Israelites under the OLD covenant, instead of Keeping His Commandments as given to us Christians by the Apostle John.

1Jn 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. And this is His commandment, That we should 1) believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and 2) LOVE ONE ANOTHER, as He gave us commandment. And he that keepeth His commandments dwelleth in Him, and He in him. And hereby we know that He abideth in us, by the Spirit which He hath given us.

Anyone who teaches His Commandments are something different then what Scriptures says above is a false teacher and does not have the TRUTH concerning this matter.

Believe what Scriptures plainly teach, not what men teach.

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave.com

 

[Grace777x70]

I am curious to understand your point here better.

My understanding is that the law and the prophets was based on love from the beginning. If you have the time could you tell me why you think the law was given? Cheers mate.

No problem mate!

Paul who knew the law better then anyone had this to say about the purpose of the law and why it was given.


The purpose of the law was :

1) To reveal our sinful state - Rom 3:20

2) To inflame sin - Rom 7:8

3) To minister death in us - Rom 7:10-11

4) To lead us to Christ - Gal 3:24

The law is good, holy and spiritual but we are in the flesh. Jesus fulfilled all the law! When we read the law we should be seeing Jesus in it. Jesus did not save us so that we could go back to the law.

The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus is how we live now, and the law of liberty in Christ Jesus and the law of love, the law of faith ( the Law is NOT of faith - the just shall live by faith ). The law of Christ - Himself is how we live now.

But the purpose of the law was not for righteousness or salvation at all, it was to manifest sin in our lives, so that the purpose of grace which is in Jesus is to manifest salvation. Grace does not set aside the law, but completely satisfied it.

Christians are dead to the Law, been released from the Law andare NOT under the Law. It can't get any plainer than that.

People are free to do whatever they want in relation to the Law - it does not make one righteous nor is it for salvation.

If someone wants to observe a particular day , festivals or eat or not eat some kinds of foods..etc - then they are free to do so. These have no bearing on one's salvation or righteousness as all that is based on the finished work of Christ.

It's where people are saying "You must observe these things or do these things in the Law or you are not obeying God and sinning" - that's where the twisting comes in and it is a perversion of the gospel of the grace of Christ.

This is an anti-Christ belief system religion which has the "appearance" of good but it is really denying the Lord Jesus Christ's finished work. Hebrews 4:10 This is replacing Christ for the Law of Moses.

 

[limey410]

I understand what you are saying. The law of Moses is such a religious stronghold in our minds from our church teachings. We have in many cases exchanged Christ ( and His grace and truth ) for the keeping of the Law which of course nullifies the grace of God from operating in our lives like it was meant to..

For me there is no such thing as too much grace or too much truth because they are all Jesus Himself. It would be like telling people you can have too much of Jesus.

Trying to pit grace and truth against each other is nonsense as if there is to much grace then truth doesn't apply. It's like trying to separate out the wet from the water. Can't be done. They are one composite together.

We can't be speaking about grace without truth and we can't be speaking about what the truth is unless it is grace too.

Be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus. Jesus said I am the Truth. They speak of Him.

I know, I see such animosity when we speak of Grace, but it is God who is Gracious. It is His grace that abounds, it is His grace by which we can be saved. Is that Hyper Grace??, too much Grace? I see words like "those gracers" used as an insult. But it is God's Grace. How can Grace that is all sufficient be too much?

 

[gotime]

No problem mate!

Paul who knew the law better then anyone had this to say about the purpose of the law and why it was given.


The purpose of the law was :

1) To reveal our sinful state - Rom 3:20

2) To inflame sin - Rom 7:8

3) To minister death in us - Rom 7:10-11

4) To lead us to Christ - Gal 3:24

The law is good, holy and spiritual but we are in the flesh. Jesus fulfilled all the law! When we read the law we should be seeing Jesus in it. Jesus did not save us so that we could go back to the law.

The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus is how we live now, and the law of liberty in Christ Jesus and the law of love, the law of faith ( the Law is NOT of faith - the just shall live by faith ). The law of Christ - Himself is how we live now.

But the purpose of the law was not for righteousness or salvation at all, it was to manifest sin in our lives, so that the purpose of grace which is in Jesus is to manifest salvation. Grace does not set aside the law, but completely satisfied it.

Christians are dead to the Law, been released from the Law andare NOT under the Law. It can't get any plainer than that.

People are free to do whatever they want in relation to the Law - it does not make one righteous nor is it for salvation.

If someone wants to observe a particular day , festivals or eat or not eat some kinds of foods..etc - then they are free to do so. These have no bearing on one's salvation or righteousness as all that is based on the finished work of Christ.

It's where people are saying "You must observe these things or do these things in the Law or you are not obeying God and sinning" - that's where the twisting comes in and it is a perversion of the gospel of the grace of Christ.

This is an anti-Christ belief system religion which has the "appearance" of good but it is really denying the Lord Jesus Christ's finished work. Hebrews 4:10 This is replacing Christ for the Law of Moses.

Thank you Brother. I appreciate the time taken to elaborate for me.

I must say that you have given a great rundown of the law here. And I can say that I can heartily agree with just about everything you have said here. I can agree with the reasons you have given for the law and that we are no longer under the law and bound by it. I agree that we are not saved by observing it etc. Those things are clear in the scripture.

I am just trying to understand where it is that we differ exactly.

see while I agree on the reason for the law, I also maintain that Christians when they have learned the truth will in deed shew the law in their actions and lives. That of course in my view includes the keeping of the Sabbath. So
I am trying to find where it is that we diverge and why. not sure yet.

 

[Meggido]

Has anyone mentioned the new commandment that Jesus spoke of?

John 13.34-35
[SUP]34 [/SUP]A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another. [SUP]35 [/SUP]By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”

 

[Johnny_B]

You bring up good points. We do need to judge them by their fruit and sheep are never wolves and wolves will never become sheep, sheep are sheep and wolves are wolves. John 10:14-15 "I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me,15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep." Before Christ died He seen His people as sheep, not goat that would become sheep, no they are sheep and sheep are His.

Here's where I draw the line, if someone continually makes immature posts, against God's word. I question their heart, it's one thing to be uninformed, it is a totally different thing to make remarks about God's word that border on blasphemy, there is no reason for that. It reveals the heart, the truth of God's word is not a joke or a common thing, like His name and He places His word above His name. Name, can be authority and/or nature and He has placed His word above that, making it very important to Him.

Psalm 138:2 I will worship toward Your holy temple, and praise Your name for Your lovingkindness and Your truth; for You have magnified Your word above all Your name.

Be careful of mocking God's truths that you don't understand. How can someone mock God's word or truths and be His? A true seeker is not going to mock something they does not understand, because it's God's word and if we don't call them on it, how are they to know that they could very well be blaspheming, if their reaction is more mocking, we know that they are not of the Lord.

A born again seeker of truth does not mock God's revealed truths, if they don't understand them they simply ask more question to help them understand or they will go to the word and let God reveal it to them.

To the Law, it is a guide to the foolish, babes, blind and those in darkness, because it's the embodiment of knowledge and truth. When we teach them we teach ourselves as well, if we brake them we are a hypocrite. Romans 2:17-24 “But if you call yourself a Jew and rely on the law and boast in God18 and know his will and approve what is excellent, because you are instructed from the law;19 and if you are sure that you yourself are a guide to the blind, a light to those who are in darkness,20 an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of children, having in the law the embodiment of knowledge and truth—21 you then who teach others, do you not teach yourself? While you preach against stealing, do you steal?22 You who say that one must not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples?23 You who boast in the law dishonor God by breaking the law.24 For, as it is written, “The name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you”.”

The Law brings the knowledge of sin. Romans 3:19-20 “Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God.20 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.”

 

[Rockrz]

Is not His grace sufficient

Yes, but only is a personal walks with God by faith... faith without works is not accepted by God as we see in James among others.

Once saved always saved is false doctrine which leads many to go ahead and live in sin claiming to be Christians on their way to Heaven.

Jesus clearly states several times that workers of iniquity (those walking after the flesh, not the Spirit) will be told to depart from Him.

 

[Meggido]

I understand what you are saying. The law of Moses is such a religious stronghold in our minds from our church teachings. We have in many cases exchanged Christ ( and His grace and truth ) for the keeping of the Law which of course nullifies the grace of God from operating in our lives like it was meant to..

For me there is no such thing as too much grace or too much truth because they are all Jesus Himself. It would be like telling people you can have too much of Jesus.

Trying to pit grace and truth against each other is nonsense as if there is to much grace then truth doesn't apply. It's like trying to separate out the wet from the water. Can't be done. They are one composite together.

We can't be speaking about grace without truth and we can't be speaking about what the truth is unless it is grace too.

Be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus. Jesus said I am the Truth. They speak of Him.

Titus 2.11-15

[SUP]11 [/SUP]For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, [SUP]12 [/SUP]instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age, [SUP]13 [/SUP]looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus, [SUP]14 [/SUP]who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]These things speak and exhort and reprove with all authority. Let no one disregard you.

 

[Angela53510]

Now, at first glance that title may seem provocative but there is a verse that basically says the same thing. That verse is Matthew 5:19.

Matthew 5:19 King James Version (KJV)

19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

It almost seems as if people's eyes just scan over that verse. However, it is quite a profound verse for those that come from a legalistic background of sorts. Someone teach against God's holy and righteous law, and they still make it into the kingdom of heaven? Their bubble must be bursting.

With this in mind, how many people do you suppose are indeed your brethren in Christ whom you may have deemed unsaved? Is not His grace sufficient, Christ's sacrifice established? Is not Christ our High Priest able to save us completely because He lives forever interceding on our behalf?

Lets not be quick to throw sheep out of the fold because we disagree on matters, but let us hold unity that exalts Christ. Some might call this compromise, but wherein then is your love? Did not Christ invite those in who are in the wrong? All manner of sinner, liars included. Therefore, people may not hold all the truth, and may yet hold onto one truth. That is, Christ and Him crucified. It is in this truth that unity may be held.

Children of God, unite.

Context, Ben! Context!

The full passage should always be posted. You have left out the important verses preceding and following.

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have not come to abolish these things but to fulfill them. 18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth pass away not the smallest letter or stroke of a letter will pass from the law until everything takes place. 19 So anyone who breaks one of the least of these commands and teaches others to do so will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever obeys them and teaches others to do so will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness goes beyond that of the experts in the law and the Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven." Matt 5:17-20 NET

First, Jesus is talking to his own disciples here. He is talking about doing and teaching the commandments. The "least" and the "greatest" in the Kingdom of Heaven are those who have responded to his announcement of the gospel of the Kingdom. Jesus drives home the binding authority of Scripture. Since he does not "abolish" the Law and the prophets, but fulfills them (Matt 5:17) his disciples likewise must not "abolish" or "break" the commandments, but instead, must practice and teach them. (5:19)

The wordplay here warns his disciples how to conduct themselves with regards to the Old Testament, as JESUS now fulfills it. The entire OT is the expression of God's will, but it is to be obeyed and taught from the perspective of how Jesus "fulfills" it through his interpretation of its intent and meaning. A disciple's status in the kingdom of heaven accords with whether one trifles with the revealed will of God or one obeys and teaches it as truly the Word of God.

The rank of "least" should not be taken to indicate exclusion from the kingdom of heaven, because in the next verse Jesus makes a big distinction between those inside and outside the kingdom. "Least" and "greatest" are ways to acknowledge in this present life those who have been faithful in word and deed to the revealed word of God as it is taught by Jesus.

In other words, your attempt to make verse 19, and indeed the passage the proof of antinomianism, is twisted, and even perverted. No one is saying that the least in the Kingdom is going to lose their salvation. Instead, what Jesus is saying is that:

We are to obey the law and the prophets as fulfilled in the words of Jesus, and teach others the truth of the Kingdom of God (Matthew uses the euphemism "Kingdom of Heaven" to avoid offending Jews who do not use the name of God.)

The entire point of this passage, is not to rationalize and excuse sin (burst someone's bubble??) but in fact, to obey and teach others God's law.

Bizarre how anyone can take this passage and use it as a justification for disobeying Christ.

Your point that sinners can enter the Kingdom of God is off the mark. First, we are all sinners and saved by grace. No one is righteous, no not one. So, is Jesus really comparing a law breaker to the righteous? Because the unrighteous do NOT enter the Kingdom of Heaven. God saves us, and we obey. That is the message in this passage.

And certainly this passage, as you insinuate in your last passage, is not about disagreeing on matters. Where on earth does that come from? Certainly not this passage! Please try again, this whole OP is false.

 

[BenFTW]

Context, Ben! Context!

The full passage should always be posted. You have left out the important verses preceding and following.

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have not come to abolish these things but to fulfill them. 18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth pass away not the smallest letter or stroke of a letter will pass from the law until everything takes place. 19 So anyone who breaks one of the least of these commands and teaches others to do so will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever obeys them and teaches others to do so will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness goes beyond that of the experts in the law and the Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven." Matt 5:17-20 NET

First, Jesus is talking to his own disciples here. He is talking about doing and teaching the commandments. The "least" and the "greatest" in the Kingdom of Heaven are those who have responded to his announcement of the gospel of the Kingdom. Jesus drives home the binding authority of Scripture. Since he does not "abolish" the Law and the prophets, but fulfills them (Matt 5:17) his disciples likewise must not "abolish" or "break" the commandments, but instead, must practice and teach them. (5:19)

The wordplay here warns his disciples how to conduct themselves with regards to the Old Testament, as JESUS now fulfills it. The entire OT is the expression of God's will, but it is to be obeyed and taught from the perspective of how Jesus "fulfills" it through his interpretation of its intent and meaning. A disciple's status in the kingdom of heaven accords with whether one trifles with the revealed will of God or one obeys and teaches it as truly the Word of God.

The rank of "least" should not be taken to indicate exclusion from the kingdom of heaven, because in the next verse Jesus makes a big distinction between those inside and outside the kingdom. "Least" and "greatest" are ways to acknowledge in this present life those who have been faithful in word and deed to the revealed word of God as it is taught by Jesus.

In other words, your attempt to make verse 19, and indeed the passage the proof of antinomianism, is twisted, and even perverted. No one is saying that the least in the Kingdom is going to lose their salvation. Instead, what Jesus is saying is that:

We are to obey the law and the prophets as fulfilled in the words of Jesus, and teach others the truth of the Kingdom of God (Matthew uses the euphemism "Kingdom of Heaven" to avoid offending Jews who do not use the name of God.)

The entire point of this passage, is not to rationalize and excuse sin (burst someone's bubble??) but in fact, to obey and teach others God's law.

Bizarre how anyone can take this passage and use it as a justification for disobeying Christ.

Your point that sinners can enter the Kingdom of God is off the mark. First, we are all sinners and saved by grace. No one is righteous, no not one. So, is Jesus really comparing a law breaker to the righteous? Because the unrighteous do NOT enter the Kingdom of Heaven. God saves us, and we obey. That is the message in this passage.

And certainly this passage, as you insinuate in your last passage, is not about disagreeing on matters. Where on earth does that come from? Certainly not this passage! Please try again, this whole OP is false.

There is no attempt to rationalize and excuse sin, simply reading the text for what it says plainly. How is it that someone can teach against His law, and even disobey it ("break one of the least... teach others to do so... shall be called the least in the kingdom.") and still be in the kingdom of Heaven?

I am not taking an antinomianism stance, nor arguing for such. It bursts the bubble of the self-righteous because it, as scripture often does, addresses their self-righteousness head on, revealing that we are saved by grace and not works. To think that a person can speak against such commandments, break them even, and still make it into Heaven though being called "the least", should be mind blowing to someone in favor of Legalism.

The disagreeing on matters is tied in because while people may disagree on certain doctrine (or in this case, teach and not do certain commandments, granted the verse) they still made it into Heaven. So this person while they may have been in the wrong doctrinally speaking, they are still your brethren. It is a call to unity. Yes, point out egregious doctrine, but to go to the lengths of defamation and labeling a heretic is too far. They are still a fellow believer, a child of God.

There is no endorsement to disobey Christ, or a justification to. Its a statement that it happens, and someone is still saved though they are called "the least." What lack of security can a believer preach when even those such as the person in Matthew 5:19 is saved?

 

[gotime]

There seems to be a disconnect with the real issue here for some.

The law, works, grace, salvation, faith are all in a context.

Love is the issue here. and the law is fulfilled in love. Its not a case of one works for their salvation but rather works are a byproduct of salvation.

People who love self over others will steal from others. People who have the love of God in their hearts wont steal.

The last 6 commandments will be kept by anyone who gives in to the Spirit. even If they don't know who God is. even if they Don't believe in God. God causes it to rain on both the righteous and the wicked.

The first 3 will be kept by anyone who gives into the Spirit and knows God.

The 4th will be kept by anyone who understands what God has done at creation on the 7th day and even more so when they understand the cross.

but all 10 are based on one word, Love. Always was from the beginning and always will be.

Israel was given the law to show they do not love, and they could not love in the way God expects without trusting God.

The law shows sin brokenness a lack of the image of God. Did then does now. if you are not matching up to it now then it says you are broken and need fixing. Only God can fix you. And that is all 10.

 

[beta]

Sister I think you missed the point I was making. A member here noted that it was "hilarious" to claim that it wasn't hard to keep 613 laws in the Torah (his point being that it's impossible to keep the whole law), and I was putting the law in perspective, showing that we have far more laws in our respective lands...and also that even back in OT times there were *specific conditions* that must be met for certain law to apply to certain individuals. My focus is on how the law of God was always merciful, and how not one jot or title passes from the law until all is fulfilled.

With regard to Christ; he taught the law of God (the law that came through Moses) in opposition to the tradition of the pharisees (that came through their own "takanot and ma'asim" {i.e. the adding to and taking away from God's law} of the pharisees). Christ taught Torah until the day he died and also after he resurrected.


Love God - Deuteronomy 6:4-6
4 "Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one! 5 "You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might. 6 "These words, which I am commanding you today, shall be on your heart.

Love Neighbor - Leviticus 19:18
18 You shall not take vengeance or bear a grudge against the sons of your own people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the Lord.

Yes - I see the point of your post now and ALL the law has to do with loving God and neighbour !

But the 10 Com given by God personally are 'spiritual in nature and Jesus expounded on in the NT. The rest of the commandments that came through Moses were more of a 'physical nature contained in ordinances/works and do not take priority over the spiritual now....and this is the 'change in the law that has taken place Heb 7v12. NOW the 'spiritual application of it has to be 'internalised instead of just going through physical observances/rituals.
Yet ALL help us to move forward in our our journey to the Kingdom - Praise the Lord !!!