the antichrist

midwestbob · Dec 15, 2011

Rev 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

The verse doesn't the beast is a man it only says he has the number of a man. We can't assume that the beast is a man just because the beast has the number of a man. Would you assume my dog is a man because he has the name of a man? So why assume that just because the number of the beast is the number of a man he must be a man. Doesn't Gods unchanging word tell us a beast is a kingdom? So why would you doubt what God's inspired word tells us in favor of a belief based on assumption?

Laodicea · Dec 15, 2011

midwestbob said:

Rev 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

The verse doesn't the beast is a man it only says he has the number of a man. We can't assume that the beast is a man just because the beast has the number of a man. Would you assume my dog is a man because he has the name of a man? So why assume that just because the number of the beast is the number of a man he must be a man. Doesn't Gods unchanging word tell us a beast is a kingdom? So why would you doubt what God's inspired word tells us in favor of a belief based on assumption?

This beast has a man in charge of a church/state power, put all the texts together and it will tell you that.

peterT · Dec 15, 2011

midwestbob said:

The point is this is a bible discussion form.

I said no it’s not a kingdom because it says ‘man” ” his” ”him” “he”. in Rv13. so you can see how I came to that conclusion.

I am not just making it up from my head it actually says “man” “ him” “ his” “ he” in Rv13.

Now I have answered 4 questions you asked me on this bible discussion form.

Do you want to answer some questions from me?

If so then Question (1) How did you get religion/Islam as a Kingdom of Rv13?

peterT · Dec 15, 2011

midwestbob said:

It doesn’t prove anything. Two or three witnesses to establish a matter in the OT.
So Two or three verses to help establish your point would be good.

I have got more than Two or three verses saying that it is a man a he.

One verse doesn’t prove anything when it comes to Bible prophesy especially in a chapter like Rv13.

midwestbob · Dec 16, 2011

peterT said:

Yes and no matter how many times you repackage it, it is still inconclusive. As I have already demonstrated by your inconclusve reasoning then Israel must be a woman and the kingdom of Babylon must be a woman.
Jer 3:8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put HER away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet HER treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.
Or maybe Babylon?
Jer 50:29 Call together the archers against Babylon: all ye that bend the bow, camp against it round about; let none thereof escape: recompense HER according to her work; according to all that SHE hath done, do unto HER: for she hath been proud against the LORD, against the Holy One of Israel.

4 out of how many.

Go back and reread my posts I see no sense repeating myself over and over.Besides whats the point before you can identify the beast you first have to understand what a beast is. As your own answers to my questions has demonstrated you only believe God's unchanging word when it suits you. Aren't you the one that answered the queston Does God's unchanging word tell us a beast is a kingdom?

Neither God or His word changed between Daniel and Rev yet you only believe God's unchanging word part of the time.
You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.

midwestbob · Dec 16, 2011

peterT said:

What God's unchanging word isn't good enough for you? Then nothing will change your mind. Besides as I have demonstrated many times just because it says he does not prove anything. Is israel a woman? Is the kingdom of Babylon from Daniel a woman. No but if we were to use your logic we would have to believe they are.

peterT · Dec 16, 2011

midwestbob said:

Its not that God's unchanging word isn't good enough for me.

It your interpretation of God’s word that’s not good enough for me, thats all.

So are you going to answer some questions from me?

If so then Question (1) How did you get religion/Islam as a Kingdom from Rv13?

midwestbob · Dec 16, 2011

peterT said:

Dan 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth....
There is no interpretation needed to see that Gods unchanging word tells us beasts are kingdoms. Your argument is not with me but instead with God's unchanging word.

To do so would be pointless you have already demonstrated that God's unchanging word is not proof enough for you, but instead prefer your assumptions which have been proven inconclusive over and over again. no sense going over the same things a million times be blessed and remember Mark7:13

iamsoandso · Dec 16, 2011

in Daniel:11 there is (prophesied),,,,"a ruler" who will at some point come in the future.,,this was written during the captivity (in Babylon). from the time this prophecy was given till "Christ himself",made the comment,"when you see the desolation spoke of the prophet Daniel " Luke ,mat.24,,,,dan. 9:27",this prophicy had not been fulfilled "according to the wording of Christ",(some say dan. 9 is speaking of antichrist,some theologians say it is of Christ, speaking of the daily),,,,,,,,,,,,but that's not the point I'm making,point is Christ said,,,,, "when you see",,,so he had not,, "yet come",,john said,"among us now",,,,,,,,,"many more shall come". so ,"antichrist" and the "prince that shall come",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"are different things",,,,,,,,,,now "the prince that will come" is most probability "antichrist,,also by belief",,,,,,,,,,,,but "antichrist,,is a spirit of unbelief in the promised messiah being born in the flesh".

Laodicea · Dec 16, 2011

midwestbob said:

I agree with you that a beast is a kingdom the Bible makes that clear, but this particular beast has a figure head.

There are many similarities to Islam and the Papacy

midwestbob · Dec 16, 2011

Laodicea said:

In actuality there are very few similarities. Catholics base their belifs (however misguided) on all of the prophets and witnesses of the one true God YHWH as revealed in His 1600 year record. On the other hand islam is a cult (false religion) that is the EXACT OPPOSITE (of what Christ taught) based on the 23 year record of A SINGLE 7th century false prophet that islams own books reveal as a mass murdering, female prisoner abusing, terrorist and thief. A cult that requires all its followers to be antichrists, IE eliminating the possibility that they can know God unless they turn from that belief.
Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Islam may have differences, but they are perfectly united spiritually through the false prophet Mohammed and his Quran. As a result they are filled with the spirit of antichrist because their belief that God has no Son, or "shirk", is the most important fundamental in Islam.

Laodicea · Dec 16, 2011

midwestbob said:

In actuality there are very few similarities. Catholics base their belifs (however misguided) on all of the prophets and witnesses of the one true God YHWH as revealed in His 1600 year record. On the other hand islam is a cult (false religion) that is the EXACT OPPOSITE (of what Christ taught) based on the 23 year record of A SINGLE 7th century false prophet that islams own books reveal as a mass murdering, female prisoner abusing, terrorist and thief. A cult that requires all its followers to be antichrists, IE eliminating the possibility that they can know God unless they turn from that belief.
Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Islam may have differences, but they are perfectly united spiritually through the false prophet Mohammed and his Quran. As a result they are filled with the spirit of antichrist because their belief that God has no Son, or "shirk", is the most important fundamental in Islam.

Both are church/state powers. Both arose around the same time. Both pray with beads. Nuns and Muslim women have a similar dress. Both hold Mary in high regard. And I am sure that there are more. What would happen in both united?

midwestbob · Dec 16, 2011

Laodicea said:

There are only 4 verses in Scripture that contain the term antichrist. Which of the following verses is the Roman Church, or Roman Church doctrine guilty of transgressing?

1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. 23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: [(but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also].
1 John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
2 John 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

Now let's look at THE false prophet Muhammad's 7th century invention in the light of 1 John 2:22-23.

Sura 19:88 They say: "(Allah) Most Gracious has begotten a son!" 89 Indeed ye have put forth a thing most monstrous!

If a Muslim confesses that Jesus is the Son of God he has committed the most egregious and only unpardonable sin in Muhammad's cult. But it gets worse.

Surah 4.157 That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-

Because Muhammad received Gnostic doctrine, most likely from Simon the Sorcerer, through the Ebionites and his wife Khadijah's cousin Waraqa, all Muslims are compelled to deny the WHOLE SUBJECT of the Gospel, and the blood that would save them, as a fundamental of their faith in Muhammad.

Laodicea · Dec 16, 2011

midwestbob said:

There are only 4 verses in Scripture that contain the term antichrist. Which of the following verses is the Roman Church, or Roman Church doctrine guilty of transgressing?

1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. 23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: [(but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also].
1 John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
2 John 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

Now let's look at THE false prophet Muhammad's 7th century invention in the light of 1 John 2:22-23.

Sura 19:88 They say: "(Allah) Most Gracious has begotten a son!" 89 Indeed ye have put forth a thing most monstrous!

If a Muslim confesses that Jesus is the Son of God he has committed the most egregious and only unpardonable sin in Muhammad's cult. But it gets worse.

Surah 4.157 That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-

Because Muhammad received Gnostic doctrine, most likely from Simon the Sorcerer, through the Ebionites and his wife Khadijah's cousin Waraqa, all Muslims are compelled to deny the WHOLE SUBJECT of the Gospel, and the blood that would save them, as a fundamental of their faith in Muhammad.

Have you read what the Papacy teaches on the birth of Christ and the immaculate conception?

midwestbob · Dec 16, 2011

Laodicea said:

Yes I have and while there are certainly some misconceptions in their beoiefs resulting in error, it does not answer the question I asked you. I notice you chose not to anser my question.Please allow me to ask it again and maybe this time you would be kind enough to answer directly by showing which one of the only 4 verses in Scripture that contain the term antichrist. Which of the following verses is the Roman Church, or Roman Church doctrine guilty of transgressing?

1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. 23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: [(but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also].
1 John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
2 John 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.he 4 verses the Catholics or Catholisc doctrine is guilty of transgressing.

I fully understand your reluctance to answer the question in a direct manner. After all to do so would stand directly against the SDA doctrine you espouse. If your doctrine doesn't match scripture change your doctrines, noot the Scriptures.

Laodicea · Dec 16, 2011

midwestbob said:

Since you seem to have difficulty understanding then, the doctrine that the Papacy teach on the immaculate conception is not Biblical and therefore has the spirit of antichrist. Also anti means in place of, the antichrist is someone in place of Christ.
2 Thessalonians 2:3-4
(3) Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
(4) Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
2 Thessalonians 2:7
(7) For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
1 Corinthians 3:16
(16) Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

The temple that the man of sin sits in is the church, and the man of sin was already working in Paul's day. was Islam working within the church in Paul's day?

ada · Dec 16, 2011

Talmudic rabbinical judaism is by their own definition antichrist.
When will you ever understand ..

midwestbob · Dec 16, 2011

ada said:

Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

Do they have the spirit of antichrist or the soirit of slumber?
Rom 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.

midwestbob · Dec 16, 2011

Laodicea said:

Pro 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

Once again I see you have failed to provide Scriptural proof. Instead preferring to build a doctrine on mans definition. Pleae show me which of the following verses saysi "in place of".

1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. 23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: [(but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also].
1 John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
2 John 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

Which of the above verses is the Roman Church, or Roman Church doctrine guilty of transgressing? None. The doctrine you espouse is nothing more then false SDA doctrine.

I fully understand that the temple of God is not some building the Jews may or may not build. It makes no difference that islam did not come about until the 6th century. All who deny the Father or Son, regardless of when are antichrists. Since there are billions of antichrists - and no shortage from John's day forward - it would seem there cannot be a single antichrist - not in John's day - not today. An individual antichrist can only be just ANOTHER antichrist.

peterT · Dec 18, 2011

midwestbob said:

I have got.

(1) son

(2) man man

(2) king king

(3) himself himself himself

(3) prince prince prince

(7) him him him him him him him

(9) his his his his his his his his his

(20)he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he

47 tells saying its a man an antichrist. what have you got saying its not a man but it is islam or something else ?

Parallel. Israel a woman yes the bride of Christ

Parallel. Babylon the harlot, what better way to describe her than a harlot a her.

Talking about me twisting scriptures, you want to twist 47 tells saying it’s a "HE" "HIS" "HIM" "HIMSELF" "PRINCE ""KING" "MAN" and you want to twist 47 tells into Islam or something else? your funny.
　
　
　
　
2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that MAN of sin be revealed, the SON of perdition;4 Who opposeth and exalteth HIMSELF above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that HE as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing HIMSELF that HE is God.
Daniel 8:23-25 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a KING of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.
And HIS power shall be mighty, but not by HIS own power: and HE shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.
And through HIS policy also he shall cause craft (fraud, deceit, treachery) to prosper in HIS hand; and HE shall magnify HIMSELF in HIS heart, and by peace shall destroy many: HE shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but HE shall be broken without hand."
Daniel 7:20-21 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spoke very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.
I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
Daniel 7:24-27 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten KINGS that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and HE shall be diverse from the first, and HE shall subdue three kings.
And HE shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into HIS hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away HIS dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end. And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.
Daniel 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof [shall be] with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.27 And HE shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week HE shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations HE shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
Revelation 13:3-18 And I saw one of HIS heads as it were wounded to death; and HIS deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with HIM?
And there was given unto HIM a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto HIM to continue forty and two months.
And HE opened HIS mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
And it was given unto HIM to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given HIM over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship HIM, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and HE had two horns like a lamb, and HE spake as a dragon.
And HE exerciseth all the power of the first beast before HIM, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
And HE doeth great wonders, so that HE maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which HE had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
And HE had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
And HE causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a MAN; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six." (666)
31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the PRINCE of this world be cast out.
30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the PRINCE of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.

the antichrist

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