Rondonmon,
Sorry to hear that. I played college basketball and into my mid 30s. Then double knee surgery and I can't even run anymore. Took up biking until about 3 years ago and got injured doing that. So now I can only walk the dogs. Sucks getting old.
No, I guess we disagree on the timing of the Rapture. We also likely disagree on what the Tribulation is and isn't. More on that later.
The Rapture timing in 1 Thes 4 is given as after the Resurrection.
...we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
So all we have to do is locate the timing of the Resurrection. We are told 4-5 times in John when the resurrection occurs.
John 6:40: ...that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”
John 6:44: No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:54: Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 11:[SUP] 23 [/SUP]Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.”[SUP] 24 [/SUP]Martha said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”
So the resurrection clearly is on the LAST DAY. So we need to ask ourselves:
"WHEN IS THE LAST DAY?"
"Is the last day, the day before the start of the Great Tribulation?"
If the "LAST DAY" is the Day before the start of the Great Tribulation, then we would expect Jesus to mention it some time before He mentions the Great Tribulation in Mat 24 and Mark 13. He doesn't breath a word about the rapture or any return of His before the GT starts. However, He does mention His Saints and warns them not to go out. Ever wonder why He would warn His people if they were supposedly already raptured?
Ever wonder why Paul would give the same warning in 2 Thes 2?
"...as though the day of Christ had come. [SUP]3 [/SUP]Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed..."
Paul is telling true Christians (the Church of Thessalonica) that Christ will not come until the Man of Sin is revealed first. This agrees with Christ's warning. Why warn true believers who would be raptured about the Man of Sin if they won't be here?
Anyway, I know why people want to believe in a Pre-Trib rapture. 1) Who wants to go through the GT? 2) Since we aren't appointed to God's Wrath we have to be gone.
Many equate the GT with God's Wrath. This is a fatal flaw in thinking. The scripture tells us that God's Wrath comes after the GT and is in direct response to it. So, what is the GT? It is the all out attack on Israel by Gog and it's allies, not the whole planet.
Mat 24 [SUP]15 [/SUP]“Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation... [SUP]16 [/SUP]“then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. [SUP]21 [/SUP]For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Only those in Judea are told to flee before the GT starts which seems to be triggered when the Abomination of Desolation is seen.
Luke 21 says the same thing: [SUP]20 [/SUP]“But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. [SUP]21 [/SUP]Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains..
Mark says the same thing: [SUP]14 [/SUP]“So when you see the ‘abomination of desolation... “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. [SUP]19 [/SUP]For in those days there will be tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the creation which God created until this time, nor ever shall be.
Only those in Judea/Israel are to flee. It is Jerusalem surround by armies, not the whole planet. The GT is the time of Jacob's trouble. Unless you are living in or near Israel, you have nothing to fear from the GT itself. But the GT happens before the Man of Sin claims to be above all.
Obviously this is a very long topic that I've written about and studied extensively. One piece of advice I'd give is to not allow Revelation to trump other, clearer scriptures. Revelation was written in Apocalyptic Literary Style, a popular writing style in its day and for centuries where the author uses symbols to disguise true meaning. Unless you understand the symbols, you will never understand Revelation. I get most, not all of them.
Let me say this about some of what you are reading. You have to pay very close attention to the actual text. The 4th seal is Radical ISLAM and ties to the King of the North.
"And power was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword, with hunger, with death, and by the beasts of the earth."
You see they have power over a fourth of the earth to kill. It doesn't say they kill 1/4 of the entire planet. The "earth" isn't the entire planet anyway, just as it wasn't when Daniel uses the word.
Dan 8: [SUP]5 [/SUP]And as I was considering, suddenly a male goat came from the west, across the surface of the whole earth, without touching the ground.
Did Alexander cross the surface of the entire planet? We know from history that he did not. He went from Greece to the northern part of India, all the way across ancient Babylon. So if we can accept that Daniel was speaking of his known world or earth then we can accept the same thing when John uses the word, "earth." Let's face it, the known earth to John was no different than it was in Daniel's day.
The hardest challenge people have in trying to understand ancient prophesy is that it was written 2,000 + years ago and from the prospective of the author writing it (under God's inspiration of course). We cannot use our own prospective. We must put ourselves in their era and in their culture. I hope some of this rubs off. Got to run.
Sorry to hear that. I played college basketball and into my mid 30s. Then double knee surgery and I can't even run anymore. Took up biking until about 3 years ago and got injured doing that. So now I can only walk the dogs. Sucks getting old.
No, I guess we disagree on the timing of the Rapture. We also likely disagree on what the Tribulation is and isn't. More on that later.
The Rapture timing in 1 Thes 4 is given as after the Resurrection.
...we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
So all we have to do is locate the timing of the Resurrection. We are told 4-5 times in John when the resurrection occurs.
John 6:40: ...that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”
John 6:44: No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:54: Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 11:[SUP] 23 [/SUP]Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.”[SUP] 24 [/SUP]Martha said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”
So the resurrection clearly is on the LAST DAY. So we need to ask ourselves:
"WHEN IS THE LAST DAY?"
"Is the last day, the day before the start of the Great Tribulation?"
If the "LAST DAY" is the Day before the start of the Great Tribulation, then we would expect Jesus to mention it some time before He mentions the Great Tribulation in Mat 24 and Mark 13. He doesn't breath a word about the rapture or any return of His before the GT starts. However, He does mention His Saints and warns them not to go out. Ever wonder why He would warn His people if they were supposedly already raptured?
Ever wonder why Paul would give the same warning in 2 Thes 2?
"...as though the day of Christ had come. [SUP]3 [/SUP]Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed..."
Paul is telling true Christians (the Church of Thessalonica) that Christ will not come until the Man of Sin is revealed first. This agrees with Christ's warning. Why warn true believers who would be raptured about the Man of Sin if they won't be here?
Anyway, I know why people want to believe in a Pre-Trib rapture. 1) Who wants to go through the GT? 2) Since we aren't appointed to God's Wrath we have to be gone.
Many equate the GT with God's Wrath. This is a fatal flaw in thinking. The scripture tells us that God's Wrath comes after the GT and is in direct response to it. So, what is the GT? It is the all out attack on Israel by Gog and it's allies, not the whole planet.
Mat 24 [SUP]15 [/SUP]“Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation... [SUP]16 [/SUP]“then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. [SUP]21 [/SUP]For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Only those in Judea are told to flee before the GT starts which seems to be triggered when the Abomination of Desolation is seen.
Luke 21 says the same thing: [SUP]20 [/SUP]“But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. [SUP]21 [/SUP]Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains..
Mark says the same thing: [SUP]14 [/SUP]“So when you see the ‘abomination of desolation... “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. [SUP]19 [/SUP]For in those days there will be tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the creation which God created until this time, nor ever shall be.
Only those in Judea/Israel are to flee. It is Jerusalem surround by armies, not the whole planet. The GT is the time of Jacob's trouble. Unless you are living in or near Israel, you have nothing to fear from the GT itself. But the GT happens before the Man of Sin claims to be above all.
Obviously this is a very long topic that I've written about and studied extensively. One piece of advice I'd give is to not allow Revelation to trump other, clearer scriptures. Revelation was written in Apocalyptic Literary Style, a popular writing style in its day and for centuries where the author uses symbols to disguise true meaning. Unless you understand the symbols, you will never understand Revelation. I get most, not all of them.
Let me say this about some of what you are reading. You have to pay very close attention to the actual text. The 4th seal is Radical ISLAM and ties to the King of the North.
"And power was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword, with hunger, with death, and by the beasts of the earth."
You see they have power over a fourth of the earth to kill. It doesn't say they kill 1/4 of the entire planet. The "earth" isn't the entire planet anyway, just as it wasn't when Daniel uses the word.
Dan 8: [SUP]5 [/SUP]And as I was considering, suddenly a male goat came from the west, across the surface of the whole earth, without touching the ground.
Did Alexander cross the surface of the entire planet? We know from history that he did not. He went from Greece to the northern part of India, all the way across ancient Babylon. So if we can accept that Daniel was speaking of his known world or earth then we can accept the same thing when John uses the word, "earth." Let's face it, the known earth to John was no different than it was in Daniel's day.
The hardest challenge people have in trying to understand ancient prophesy is that it was written 2,000 + years ago and from the prospective of the author writing it (under God's inspiration of course). We cannot use our own prospective. We must put ourselves in their era and in their culture. I hope some of this rubs off. Got to run.
Last edited: