All right It's the Book of Enoch. When did Enoch live? How long before Jude? Or Jesus since they were contemporaries. A thousand years? Eight hundred? That's when the book of Enoch was written...when Enoch lived. How do we know Enoch wrote it? If I write a book. would it be the book of Denadii? Or the book of Walter. Or may be the book of Magenta? It's named after the author.
The Book Of Enoch
- Thread starter J7
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Okay. I think I understand your assertations that the Book of Enoch was supposedly written before Jude.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Enoch
You are putting a lot of faith in the Book of Enoch that is only wholly extant in the Ge'ez language with fragments in Aramaic, and a fewer in Greek, and Latin still. You do not even know if the one in Ge'ez is the actual whole of the fragments in Aramaic, Greek, or Latin.
But I want to point out something here; Jude may not have been quoting Enoch. He may just be referencing the line of descendent from Adam, counting Adam as one.
Luke 3:[SUP]37 [/SUP]Which was the son of Mathusala, which was the son of Enoch, which was the son of Jared, which was the son of Maleleel, which was the son of Cainan,[SUP]38 [/SUP]Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.
It can be common knowledge that Enoch was seventh from Adam and it doesn't necessarily meant that Jude was quoting the Book of Enoch which clearly is of questionable origin that it has to be considered a Jewish fable.
Titus 1:[SUP]13 [/SUP]This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;[SUP] 14 [/SUP]Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.[SUP] 15 [/SUP]Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.[SUP] 16 [/SUP]They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.
Jews obviously did not consider them scripture to bother to keep them updated.
There is another fragment of a Dead Sea Scroll that has Satan knowing Eve for Eve to give birth to Cain. The point here is that Jewish fables exists; and although I would doubt the Book of Enoch coming out from around the Alexandrian area which is why I think it is a fraud in the first place, where poetic licensing and gnosticism had been known to exists, you have far to go to believe that Book of Enoch as found wholly written in Ge'ez is not a Jewish fable we were warned about.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Enoch
You are putting a lot of faith in the Book of Enoch that is only wholly extant in the Ge'ez language with fragments in Aramaic, and a fewer in Greek, and Latin still. You do not even know if the one in Ge'ez is the actual whole of the fragments in Aramaic, Greek, or Latin.
But I want to point out something here; Jude may not have been quoting Enoch. He may just be referencing the line of descendent from Adam, counting Adam as one.
Luke 3:[SUP]37 [/SUP]Which was the son of Mathusala, which was the son of Enoch, which was the son of Jared, which was the son of Maleleel, which was the son of Cainan,[SUP]38 [/SUP]Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.
It can be common knowledge that Enoch was seventh from Adam and it doesn't necessarily meant that Jude was quoting the Book of Enoch which clearly is of questionable origin that it has to be considered a Jewish fable.
Titus 1:[SUP]13 [/SUP]This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;[SUP] 14 [/SUP]Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.[SUP] 15 [/SUP]Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.[SUP] 16 [/SUP]They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.
Jews obviously did not consider them scripture to bother to keep them updated.
There is another fragment of a Dead Sea Scroll that has Satan knowing Eve for Eve to give birth to Cain. The point here is that Jewish fables exists; and although I would doubt the Book of Enoch coming out from around the Alexandrian area which is why I think it is a fraud in the first place, where poetic licensing and gnosticism had been known to exists, you have far to go to believe that Book of Enoch as found wholly written in Ge'ez is not a Jewish fable we were warned about.
J
i can help you out D. the Enoch scrolls at Qumran were buried no later than around 80 AD. so at the time of their burial they are already older than any NT book. exactly how long they existed before their burial is what the scholars argue which makes little difference as we already know they are older we just dont know how much older.
You're putting a lot of faith in Wikipedia......Known to be very inaccurate on many subjects. You need to find reliable sources.
So Jude may not have quoted Enoch. Jude 14-15 (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP]And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
[SUP]15 [/SUP]To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
Looks to me like he did. As did several others.....Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth. (Mat 5:5) The elect shall possess light, joy and peace, and they shall inherit the earth. (Enoch 5:7 {6:9})
the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the son (John 5:22). the principal part of the judgment was assigned to him, the Son of man. (Enoch 69:27 {68:39})
shall inherit everlasting life (Mat. 19:29) those who will inherit eternal life (Enoch 40:9 {40:9})
"Wo unto you that are rich! for ye have received your consolation. (Luke 6:24) Woe to you who are rich, for in your riches have you trusted; but from your riches you shall be removed. (Enoch 94:8 {93:7}).
Ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. (Mat. 19:28) I will place each of them on a throne of glory (Enoch 108:12 {105:26})
Woe unto that man through whom the Son of man is betrayed! It had been good for that man if he had not been born. (Mat. 26:24) Where will the habitation of sinners be . . . who have rejected the Lord of spirits. It would have been better for them, had they never been born. (Enoch 38:2 {38:2})
between us and you there is a great gulf fixed. (Luke 16:26) by a chasm . . . [are] their souls are separated (Enoch 22: 9,11{22:10,12})
In my Father's house are many mansions (John 14:2) In that day shall the Elect One sit upon a throne of glory, and shall choose their conditions and countless habitations. (Enoch 45:3 {45:3})
that ye may be called the children of light (John 12:36) the good from the generation of light (Enoch 108:11 {105: 25})
the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life. (John 4:14) all the thirsty drank, and were filled with wisdom, having their habitation with the righteous, the elect, and the holy. (Enoch 48:1 {48:1})
So Jude may not have quoted Enoch. Jude 14-15 (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP]And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
[SUP]15 [/SUP]To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
Looks to me like he did. As did several others.....Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth. (Mat 5:5) The elect shall possess light, joy and peace, and they shall inherit the earth. (Enoch 5:7 {6:9})
the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the son (John 5:22). the principal part of the judgment was assigned to him, the Son of man. (Enoch 69:27 {68:39})
shall inherit everlasting life (Mat. 19:29) those who will inherit eternal life (Enoch 40:9 {40:9})
"Wo unto you that are rich! for ye have received your consolation. (Luke 6:24) Woe to you who are rich, for in your riches have you trusted; but from your riches you shall be removed. (Enoch 94:8 {93:7}).
Ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. (Mat. 19:28) I will place each of them on a throne of glory (Enoch 108:12 {105:26})
Woe unto that man through whom the Son of man is betrayed! It had been good for that man if he had not been born. (Mat. 26:24) Where will the habitation of sinners be . . . who have rejected the Lord of spirits. It would have been better for them, had they never been born. (Enoch 38:2 {38:2})
between us and you there is a great gulf fixed. (Luke 16:26) by a chasm . . . [are] their souls are separated (Enoch 22: 9,11{22:10,12})
In my Father's house are many mansions (John 14:2) In that day shall the Elect One sit upon a throne of glory, and shall choose their conditions and countless habitations. (Enoch 45:3 {45:3})
that ye may be called the children of light (John 12:36) the good from the generation of light (Enoch 108:11 {105: 25})
the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life. (John 4:14) all the thirsty drank, and were filled with wisdom, having their habitation with the righteous, the elect, and the holy. (Enoch 48:1 {48:1})
The point is that Moses had access to the words of righteous Enoch, the only source from which he could have known that all sin was to be ascribed to Azazel.
Concerning Azazel, we read in the Book of Enoch the prophet, chapter 6 to chapter 10; "And Michael said to the heavenly Lord, "Seest what"Azazel hath done, who hath taught all unrighteousness on earth and has revealed the eternal secrets which were preserved in heaven, which men were striving to learn. And Semjaza, to whom you have given authority to bear rule over his associates (The other 199 sons of God) and they have gone to the daughters of men upon the earth and have slept with them and revealed to them all kinds of sin etc. The Lord then passed judgment on the angels who had forsaken their own original habitat and came down and defiled themselves with the daughters of men.
They were to be bound and cast into the valley of the earth until seventy generations had passed, (Jesus was seventy generations from Enoch, see Luke"3: 23-38) but Azazel was punished separate from the others, He was taken out into the wilderness to a place called 'Dudael,' where he was cast into a deep pit and covered with rough and jagged stone, and all sin was to be ascribed to him."
It was from the records of Enoch that Moses received the regulations, rules and laws, of the new religion, which included the religious regulation where Aaron would place his hand upon the head of a scapegoat, symbolically transferring the sins of Israel to the goat, which was then sent out into the wilderness to Azazel, the Son of God to whom all sin is to be ascribed.
But you claim to have read the book of Enoch three times, surely you should have known that?
Concerning Azazel, we read in the Book of Enoch the prophet, chapter 6 to chapter 10; "And Michael said to the heavenly Lord, "Seest what"Azazel hath done, who hath taught all unrighteousness on earth and has revealed the eternal secrets which were preserved in heaven, which men were striving to learn. And Semjaza, to whom you have given authority to bear rule over his associates (The other 199 sons of God) and they have gone to the daughters of men upon the earth and have slept with them and revealed to them all kinds of sin etc. The Lord then passed judgment on the angels who had forsaken their own original habitat and came down and defiled themselves with the daughters of men.
They were to be bound and cast into the valley of the earth until seventy generations had passed, (Jesus was seventy generations from Enoch, see Luke"3: 23-38) but Azazel was punished separate from the others, He was taken out into the wilderness to a place called 'Dudael,' where he was cast into a deep pit and covered with rough and jagged stone, and all sin was to be ascribed to him."
It was from the records of Enoch that Moses received the regulations, rules and laws, of the new religion, which included the religious regulation where Aaron would place his hand upon the head of a scapegoat, symbolically transferring the sins of Israel to the goat, which was then sent out into the wilderness to Azazel, the Son of God to whom all sin is to be ascribed.
But you claim to have read the book of Enoch three times, surely you should have known that?
J
this is a very misleading statement. the pharisees did not consider them canon, the Essenes and Nazarenes considered them as holy scriptures. we even have theology writing from the Essenes where they use the Enoch scroll.
also wanted to point out that Nazarene and Essene were the sects of Jesus and John the baptist, the pharisees were the sect Jesus and John refer to as sons of the devil. Jesus even teaches they hide the keys to the kingdom. they hide the keys to the kingdom but would never hide a holy scripture?
also wanted to point out that Nazarene and Essene were the sects of Jesus and John the baptist, the pharisees were the sect Jesus and John refer to as sons of the devil. Jesus even teaches they hide the keys to the kingdom. they hide the keys to the kingdom but would never hide a holy scripture?
Thank you for sharing and for your patience, however...
Let me share this then:
The Book of Enoch and The Secrets of Enoch
#1. You cannot say that the whole copy of the Book of Enoch is the same as the fragmentary ones in Aramaic and the fewer still in the Greek & Latin.
#2. You do not know the date of the 3 copies of the surviving whole Book of Enoch if it had been written before Jude or any of the scripture of the N.T. Indeed, all your quotes can be seen as plagiarism to give them a sense of legitimacy as a fraudulent book written after the N.T.
Ever noticed the style of your quotes of scripture in the Book of Enoch really do not line up with the majority of that Book of Enoch's writing style?
One time as an elementary student, I had copied some paragraphs from Doc Savage paper back in writing a fictional story with me & my friends in it for fun as a hobby. I made the mistake of showing it to my teacher at school who thought it was great, but he only referred to the parts I had copied. Then I told him that I did not write that part but copied it to give my story something to play off of. He was disappointed after that. So was I, in finding out that what I had written wasn't really good at all. So I trashed it. That was when I found out about plagiarism being bad or wrong.
The point here is... you can see the quotes you made that you seem to think the Bible referenced it from Enoch, but the rest of the writing style of Enoch do not match the writing style of the quotes that the Bible supposedly took from Enoch.
#3. You cannot say that being of Alexandrian origin where poetic licensing and gnosticism has been known to exists, had no bearings on suspecting those surviving 3 whole copies of the Book of Enoch as a complete fraud, and there has been frauds.
So do not see the 3 whole copies of the Book of Enoch as if they share the same dates of the fragmentary ones which would go back to before 300 B.C. Just because the fragmentary ones are dated 300 B.C., it does not mean the 3 whole copies of the Book of Enoch is of the 300 A.D. origin, let alone of those Book of Enoch which were of Jewish fables for why Jewish scholars did not bother to upkeep, because they were not scripture.
Unless you have information to the contrary, this is why I had been saying that the ones found has to be frauds because you cannot say how old they were or when they were written and because of the writing style of the supposed quotes of the Bible from the Book of Enoch, the rest of the Book of Enoch do not match that writing style at all that the Bible supposedly quoted from Enoch. It is more than likely that the Book of Enoch as a fraud, plagiarized the Bible.
Let me share this then:
The Book of Enoch and The Secrets of Enoch
#1. You cannot say that the whole copy of the Book of Enoch is the same as the fragmentary ones in Aramaic and the fewer still in the Greek & Latin.
#2. You do not know the date of the 3 copies of the surviving whole Book of Enoch if it had been written before Jude or any of the scripture of the N.T. Indeed, all your quotes can be seen as plagiarism to give them a sense of legitimacy as a fraudulent book written after the N.T.
Ever noticed the style of your quotes of scripture in the Book of Enoch really do not line up with the majority of that Book of Enoch's writing style?
One time as an elementary student, I had copied some paragraphs from Doc Savage paper back in writing a fictional story with me & my friends in it for fun as a hobby. I made the mistake of showing it to my teacher at school who thought it was great, but he only referred to the parts I had copied. Then I told him that I did not write that part but copied it to give my story something to play off of. He was disappointed after that. So was I, in finding out that what I had written wasn't really good at all. So I trashed it. That was when I found out about plagiarism being bad or wrong.
The point here is... you can see the quotes you made that you seem to think the Bible referenced it from Enoch, but the rest of the writing style of Enoch do not match the writing style of the quotes that the Bible supposedly took from Enoch.
#3. You cannot say that being of Alexandrian origin where poetic licensing and gnosticism has been known to exists, had no bearings on suspecting those surviving 3 whole copies of the Book of Enoch as a complete fraud, and there has been frauds.
So do not see the 3 whole copies of the Book of Enoch as if they share the same dates of the fragmentary ones which would go back to before 300 B.C. Just because the fragmentary ones are dated 300 B.C., it does not mean the 3 whole copies of the Book of Enoch is of the 300 A.D. origin, let alone of those Book of Enoch which were of Jewish fables for why Jewish scholars did not bother to upkeep, because they were not scripture.
Unless you have information to the contrary, this is why I had been saying that the ones found has to be frauds because you cannot say how old they were or when they were written and because of the writing style of the supposed quotes of the Bible from the Book of Enoch, the rest of the Book of Enoch do not match that writing style at all that the Bible supposedly quoted from Enoch. It is more than likely that the Book of Enoch as a fraud, plagiarized the Bible.
So all of this is a good reason not to use the Book of Enoch as Word. Which it is not. We are not disagreed on this point. My point is though. Its still good for the historical aspect. Which is what I've been saying all along. Even the original copy did not fit the criteria to be cannon. It was not written using the proper formula. No man has ever been able to write by that formula. Unless God gave him the words. I'm not certain why we're arguing about this.
When they were accepted as scripture many times why should we concentrate on the Greek type thinking about Enoch that Alexander the Great introduced to us and instead think of it with the type of thinking that God introduced called Hebrew thinking. The Greeks thought as we do today with how, why, when. Hebrew thinking analyzes the subject to see how it can be used.
We know that one type of angel can take human form, there are many times scripture speaks of this such as the angel that announced the coming birth of Christ to Abraham and Sarah. We are told in scripture that there were angels who rebelled, many of them. Enoch explains this, why not listen first. Then you can rebel against what people in the past have accepted as scripture. It would explain why God caused the flood that wiped out evil men who made the earth unsafe for God's people.
All you western type thinkers, why not search for when and why the book of Enoch was declared not scripture?
We know that one type of angel can take human form, there are many times scripture speaks of this such as the angel that announced the coming birth of Christ to Abraham and Sarah. We are told in scripture that there were angels who rebelled, many of them. Enoch explains this, why not listen first. Then you can rebel against what people in the past have accepted as scripture. It would explain why God caused the flood that wiped out evil men who made the earth unsafe for God's people.
All you western type thinkers, why not search for when and why the book of Enoch was declared not scripture?
Because using the Book of Enoch as a vocabulary for defining what the sons of God are as angels is erroneous.
From a historical aspect, you cannot use it when it contains lies. And certainly cannot use it to understand truth in scriptures when by the scripture is how the lies are exposed in the Book of Enoch.
If we are using a Bible that contains lies, then no one can use it as a guide for all Truth. ( which is why I rely only on the KJV for the meat of His words to discern good & evil, but I digress )
The sons of God were never angels. The sons of God would not be allowed to marry in according to His words that angels are not marrying nor given in marriage. And fallen angels would never be called sons of God in His words. This is a conundrum for people who believe sons of God is meaning angels in the Bible when they are reading that into the Bible from the Book of Enoch, and the Book of Enoch is wrong about sons of God being angels.
From a historical aspect, you cannot use it when it contains lies. And certainly cannot use it to understand truth in scriptures when by the scripture is how the lies are exposed in the Book of Enoch.
If we are using a Bible that contains lies, then no one can use it as a guide for all Truth. ( which is why I rely only on the KJV for the meat of His words to discern good & evil, but I digress )
The sons of God were never angels. The sons of God would not be allowed to marry in according to His words that angels are not marrying nor given in marriage. And fallen angels would never be called sons of God in His words. This is a conundrum for people who believe sons of God is meaning angels in the Bible when they are reading that into the Bible from the Book of Enoch, and the Book of Enoch is wrong about sons of God being angels.