The Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies.

[Tintin]

Paul was pointing to the cross and nothing else.

Or rather the one who suffered, died on the cross and rose again.

This answer is a little simplistic though and not particularly helpful.

 

[ChristInUs]

Ignorance is not a virtue as we want it to be.

 

[DesiredHaven]

I'm not sure what Cretians even are, but Cretans were just the people of Crete. It's like people from Melbourne, Australia are called 'Melbournians'. Paul never belonged to a sect, he was a follower of Christ. But yes, Nazarenes and Nazareth are two very different things (while in some manner related by location).

We know Paul wasnt from Nazareth and they called him a ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes

Acts 24:5 For we have found this man a pestilent fellow, and a mover of sedition among all the Jews throughout the world, and a ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes:

So they acknowledge a sect of Nazarenes, where Jesus (it is said) would be called a Nazarene because he just born in Nazareth

Mat 2:23 And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, He shall be called a Nazarene.

I dont know for sure where that is spoken in the prophets but even so, it shows a sect of Nazarenes and one called a Nazarene (as in the place of birth)

 

[DesiredHaven]

Paul was pointing to the cross and nothing else.

Okey dokey thanks

 

[Tintin]

We know Paul wasnt from Nazareth and they called him a ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes

Acts 24:5 For we have found this man a pestilent fellow, and a mover of sedition among all the Jews throughout the world, and a ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes:

So they acknowledge a sect of Nazarenes, where Jesus (it is said) would be called a Nazarene because he just born in Nazareth

Mat 2:23 And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, He shall be called a Nazarene.

I dont know for sure where that is spoken in the prophets but even so, it shows a sect of Nazarenes and one called a Nazarene (as in the place of birth)

Fair enough. I guess I've always seen sects as referring to something like cults eg. ungodly religious groups, if you will.

 

[DesiredHaven]

Ignorance is not a virtue as we want it to be.

Alrighty, and thank you again

 

[DesiredHaven]

Fair enough. I guess I've always seen sects as referring to something like cults eg. ungodly religious groups, if you will.

Oh yeah I cant understand that, because I was referencing the sects (part) calling Pauls part a sect (heresy) also.

Or their own hersey calling what Paul believed a heresy.

They called themselves followers of "the way" (given Jesus is "the way") and they called that a heresy

Acts 24:14 But this I confess unto thee, that after (((the way))) which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

Shows here of all of them (even chrsitians) no one consideres themselves one I suppose lol

 

[yaright]

That is where the Cretes or Cretians did dwell but they had their own prophets (who had words for them) with which Paul agreed.

If someone stated that Californians were all liars, evil beasts with slow bellies, would you not think it kind of rude (even stereotypical) to agree with that?

It is a possible reference to a person of similar character and nature; that a sharp rebuke would be a benefit concerning faith. You've likely come across the biblical reference "Wake up!" What is spoken of here is something you might run across in your walk with Christ. As iron sharpens iron, so too the countenance of man is sharpened by his brother. The teaching is more of encouragement than saying a person is useless.

 

[Nick01]

Yep, I think you've all covered the important parts all ready. Paul is quoting Epimenides, (also the writer of the "in him we live and move and have our being" quote). Evidently Paul was something of a fan.

The funny thing about the quote in Titus 1 is that Epimenides was in fact from Crete. Of course, the force of Epi's words are not meant to be taken absolutely. Despite being referred to by Paul, Cicero, Plato, Clement, and other writers of antiquity, no one thought there was any logical problem with what was said and treated the words in the same manner, the point being that the saying is proverbial, rather than absolute.

I think Epi's original words had something to do with Cretans often claiming that their island housed the actual tomb of Zeus. The tendency of Cretans to exaggerate, lie and make outlandish claims apparently went to a proverbial level, with a synonym in Greek for lying (I think it is kritzein or similar) essentially coming from the word for Crete, and the literal force in English is something along the lines of "to lie like a Cretan".

/funfacts

 

[Nick01]

Side note - apparently the third century BC Greek poet Callimachus also repeated basically the same idea in his 'Hymn to Zeus' (without reference to Epi), in which the persona asks Zeus whether he was Lord of Dicte (in Crete) or of Lycaeum, to which Zeus replies "Cretans are ever liars." The idea was apparently quite widespread, and was obviously an issue quite dear to many Greek hearts given it concerned the birth and ultimate fate of the head of the Greek pantheon.

Part of this 'menes' longevity and ubiquity probably owes to the fact that it was repeated amongst poets and writers all over the place over hundreds of years, to the point where it became a kind of common knowledge (Epimenides likely preceded even Callimachus by centuries, and Paul by more - from what I can find, the textual history of Epimenides is extremely sparse, and what remains of his Cretica survives today only in ancient - by which I mean sixth/seventh century AD - non-Greek commentaries on the New Testament. Ironically, most of what survives of Epimenides' writing is still with us because Paul quoted him.)

 

[Nick01]

^^^^^^^*meme's

 

[DesiredHaven]

It is a possible reference to a person of similar character and nature; that a sharp rebuke would be a benefit concerning faith. You've likely come across the biblical reference "Wake up!" What is spoken of here is something you might run across in your walk with Christ. As iron sharpens iron, so too the countenance of man is sharpened by his brother. The teaching is more of encouragement than saying a person is useless.

Some could consider it rude, and not of love

It wasnt like he was calling them that (to their faces) but rather letting their own prophets speak and he just found much truth in agreement with the same (in respects to themselves)

Although, I dont think I would call it "encouraging" to call them "always liars, evil beasts and slow bellies". I mean, it seems more like a discusted (just had it up to here) kind of insult of their ways (with much truth in it) as it was agreed with by Paul who would rebuke them for to save them.

But if anyone (today) uttered similar words of others I think they would get a lecture on what love is or isnt, or something similar.

 

[JaumeJ]

I always took them to be the people of Crete.


Traveling the world and learning of different peoples and lands, it is almost impossible not to find the oddest of practices, lying included. More and more these days we encounter people who when asked a question, if they do not truly know the reply, they simply make up one. Travel the world and see.........expecially certain Mediterranean countries.

I almost forgot, my witness is true.

This witness is true.

Who are these guys?

 

[DesiredHaven]

I always took them to be the people of Crete.


Traveling the world and learning of different peoples and lands, it is almost impossible not to find the oddest of practices, lying included. More and more these days we encounter people who when asked a question, if they do not truly know the reply, they simply make up one. Travel the world and see.........expecially certain Mediterranean countries.

I almost forgot, my witness is true.

Lets chicken scratch that in with Pauls

Ti 1:13This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;

 

[dcontroversal]

I looked this up in my Zondervan Bible Dictionary....

Paul visited Crete, left Titus there in charge
In Paul's view those in Crete (including) the believers were not of high moral character
The first words of Paul's quote are found in the hymn to Zeus by Callimachus..
Those on Crete often lied about the tomb of Zeus a non-existent place
They were characterized by laziness and gluttony
Paul charges Titus to rebuke them sharply

This is what I found...not saying this is all of it, but hopes this helps.....

 

[DesiredHaven]

I looked this up in my Zondervan Bible Dictionary....

Paul visited Crete, left Titus there in charge
In Paul's view those in Crete (including) the believers were not of high moral character
The first words of Paul's quote are found in the hymn to Zeus by Callimachus..
Those on Crete often lied about the tomb of Zeus a non-existent place
They were characterized by laziness and gluttony
Paul charges Titus to rebuke them sharply

This is what I found...not saying this is all of it, but hopes this helps.....

Thank you dc! You are always a help

 

[JonahLynx]

That is where the Cretes or Cretians did dwell but they had their own prophets (who had words for them) with which Paul agreed. If someone stated that Californians were all liars, evil beasts with slow bellies, would you not think it kind of rude (even stereotypical) to agree with that?

I think it's the culture that he's speaking to. Other countries today might say that the culture of the United States is highly individualistic, materialistic, and over sexualized. In the early centuries, this might be worded, "Americans are selfish and immoral." A person in those days would understand this to be directed at the culture rather than each member.

So when speaking of Cretians, it's more about the culture in Crete rather than anyone who lives there.

 

[DesiredHaven]

I think it's the culture that he's speaking to. Other countries today might say that the culture of the United States is highly individualistic, materialistic, and over sexualized. In the early centuries, this might be worded, "Americans are selfish and immoral." A person in those days would understand this to be directed at the culture rather than each member.

So when speaking of Cretians, it's more about the culture in Crete rather than anyone who lives there.

Hey thanks, makes sense!

 

[Jeff_56]

did i misread your post or did you and tinny forget this ? : >>

Matthew 2:1 ►Parallel Verses
New International Version
After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the time of King Herod, Magi from the east came to Jerusalem

New Living Translation
Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the reign of King Herod. About that time some wise men from eastern lands arrived in Jerusalem, asking,

English Standard Version
Now after Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea in the days of Herod the king, behold, wise men from the east came to Jerusalem,

New American Standard Bible
Now after Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea in the days of Herod the king, magi from the east arrived in Jerusalem, saying,

King James Bible
Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem,

Holman Christian Standard Bible
After Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea in the days of King Herod, wise men from the east arrived unexpectedly in Jerusalem,

International Standard Version
After Jesus had been born in Bethlehem of Judea during the reign of King Herod, wise men arrived in Jerusalem from the east

NET Bible
After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, in the time of King Herod, wise men from the East came to Jerusalem

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
Now when Yeshua was born in Bethlehem of Judaea, in the days of Herodus the King, The Magi came from The East to Jerusalem.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea when Herod was king. After Jesus' birth wise men from the east arrived in Jerusalem.

Jubilee Bible 2000
Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem,

King James 2000 Bible
Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem,

American King James Version
Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem,

American Standard Version
Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, Wise-men from the east came to Jerusalem, saying,

We know Paul wasnt from Nazareth and they called him a ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes

Acts 24:5 For we have found this man a pestilent fellow, and a mover of sedition among all the Jews throughout the world, and a ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes:

So they acknowledge a sect of Nazarenes, where Jesus (it is said) would be called a Nazarene because he just born in Nazareth

Mat 2:23 And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, He shall be called a Nazarene.

I dont know for sure where that is spoken in the prophets but even so, it shows a sect of Nazarenes and one called a Nazarene (as in the place of birth)

 

[ChristInUs]

Aren't we all, tell the truth