The Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies.

[ThomistColin]

a true witnesss that Paul agreed with that Cretans (specifically so) are always liars.

Paul doesn't believe all Cretans are liars. Its a logical fallacy Paul is using to get his point across.

You honestly believe that the Holy Spirit through Paul taught us to hold a racist belief as divine revelation? Saying all Cretans are liars is equal to say all Jews care about is money or that all Romany are thieves.

This is entirely about Paul using a quote from a well known Poet of antiquity who wrote this line as a point of logical fallacy, of not accepting things as they appear.

 

[Nick01]

Paul is quoting a Pagan poet who was a Cretan. That's the point of the quote. Its supposed to make a point about the human inability to understand.

Follow the logic:
If a Cretan says, "All Cretans are liars" we have 2 choices.
1. This Cretan is telling the truth, thus he is not a liar, and therefore has made a false statement.
2. This Cretan is lying, and in fact some Cretans are not liars, except for this one, and therefore he has made a false statement.

Read the context of Paul's usage of the Pagan's pronouncement and you will realize that Paul is calling his friend to remember that not all things are as they appear and to walk with his eyes open and not down cast.

Except there' nothing in Epimenides, or indeed in Titus, to suggest that the point of the aphorism has anything to do with it being logically contradictory. Paul appears to use the quotation in Titus in a very straight up and down way - there are people like this, so rebuke them. People have accused Paul of actually missing the point of the quotation because nothing in Titus one otherwise suggests he means it in the way you suggest he does. It's not until you get to the middle Ages that people start caring about whether Epi is presenting a paradox or not, but they're wrong for this very simple reason: one can be a liar without every word they speak being a lie.

The 2 choices are a false dichotomy, because not only does it read a proverbial truth as literal (or literalistic) truth, but it also presumes that one who is a liar never tells the truth, which does not follow. In other words, it's a hyper literal reading not intended by Epi or Paul, not detected by the likes of Plato, Callimachus, Cicero, etc.

The saying is intended to be proverbial. It's like saying "Australian's are loud, fun-loving, and often off-colour". Now, certainly there are plenty of individual Australians who are nothing like that, but it does actually impart a kind of proverbial truth at a cultural level. The meaning of Epi's saying and what it is communicating goes beyond the semantics itself, and is caught up in existing cultural assumptions that we more or less have lost touch with today.

 

[DesiredHaven]

Paul doesn't believe all Cretans are liars. Its a logical fallacy Paul is using to get his point across.

You honestly believe that the Holy Spirit through Paul taught us to hold a racist belief as divine revelation? Saying all Cretans are liars is equal to say all Jews care about is money or that all Romany are thieves.

This is entirely about Paul using a quote from a well known Poet of antiquity who wrote this line as a point of logical fallacy, of not accepting things as they appear.

However you see it is fine by me, and how I see it is also fine by me

 

[Jeff_56]

The first was saying somethin admittedly in haste, concerning all men being liars, and second, a true witnesss that Paul agreed with that Cretans (specifically so) are always liars.
.....

paul did agree that all cretans are liars -- they were notorious liars with many witnesses to that.

(as catholics who trust the rcc doctrines of demons are notoriously impossible to save today and they ALWAYS LIE - they lie without knowing it as long as they trust someone or something instead of Yahweh and His Word, and others btw also, not just them; (BUT THAT'S A GOOD EXAMPLE - as roman rcc doctrines and practices are demonically notorious and foul and every true witness agrees with this starting with GOD all the way down to the least of the believers)

as for "in haste" a little more clarity comes with

, perhaps, the voice / meaning of king david in what may be slightly better context >>

9 I will go on walking in the presence of Adonai
in the lands of the living.
10 I will keep on trusting even when I say,
“I am utterly miserable,”
11 even when, in my panic, I declare,
“Everything human is deceptive.”

12 How can I repay Adonai
for all his generous dealings with me?
13 I will raise the cup of salvation
and call on the name of Adonai.
14 I will pay my vows to Adonai
in the presence of all his people.

15 From Adonai’s point of view,
the death of those faithful to him is costly.
Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)

Copyright © 1998 by David H. Stern. All rights reserved.

 

[ThomistColin]

Jeff are you like my shadow or something? "Just me and my shadow?"

 

[DesiredHaven]

Thanks fellas, I think I am done here much appreciate all you help, God bless you's!

 

[Nick01]

you are the darkness and in great danger. you are lost , dead in your sin, and no matter how much you count on the pope or mary or an idol, they cannot help you.

Not the time, not the thread. Take it to PM if you like, start a new thread, but please don't derail what is a very specific and straightforward thread, not to mention a civil and friendly one, with your hobby horse.

 

[Jeff_56]

heresy is heresy, and should never be tolerated.

i deleted the post because i thought it a little strong, before i saw your post here.

would you let little children play with a venomous snake ?

the time is always to watch out for heresy and combat the works of the devil, the same as JESUS DOES.

if you knew how many thousands of souls are destroyed (and potentially destroyed, and shipwrecked) every day by the heresy of the rcc since it first started almost 2000 years ago, you would not be so cavalier about allowing it anywhere on the site. that is why there are rules on the site against it.

if someone in buddism , jw-ism, mormon -ism, or yes even in rcc catholic -ism comes SEEKING TRUTH,
they are welcome according to RoboOp and all the admins,
and they can ask questions with Scripture as the authority for the answer.

but if they come trying wittingly or unwittingly promoting the heresy or the rcc(or any other anti-christ religion),
then that is not permitted according to the rules of the site that a lot of members are aware of already.

Not the time, not the thread. Take it to PM if you like, start a new thread, but please don't derail what is a very specific and straightforward thread, not to mention a civil and friendly one, with your hobby horse.

 

[weakness]

I'm not sure what you call people from Nazareth. But I think there was a group or family called the Nazarenes. They were not permitted to drink at all, I don't think they could shave and maybe a couple of other things. This is in the old testament and had nothing to do with Nazareth. I can't remember for sure.

 

[Tintin]

heresy is heresy, and should never be tolerated.

i deleted the post because i thought it a little strong, before i saw your post here.

would you let little children play with a venomous snake ?

the time is always to watch out for heresy and combat the works of the devil, the same as JESUS DOES.

if you knew how many thousands of souls are destroyed (and potentially destroyed, and shipwrecked) every day by the heresy of the rcc since it first started almost 2000 years ago, you would not be so cavalier about allowing it anywhere on the site. that is why there are rules on the site against it.

if someone in buddism , jw-ism, mormon -ism, or yes even in rcc catholic -ism comes SEEKING TRUTH,
they are welcome according to RoboOp and all the admins,
and they can ask questions with Scripture as the authority for the answer.

but if they come trying wittingly or unwittingly promoting the heresy or the rcc(or any other anti-christ religion),
then that is not permitted according to the rules of the site that a lot of members are aware of already.

Go away, Jeff. We don't want you talking smack here.

 

[Galahad]

You lost me because every letter has a "grace be with you" and a salutation or greetings with it.

I was mainly addressing this: "If someone stated that Californians were all liars, evil beasts with slow bellies, would you not think it kind of rude (even stereotypical) to agree with that?"


Not sure if that means you thought the Christians on Crete would feel Paul was rude.
They probably understood Paul's quote as a generalization and not aimed at them. And then Paul does close his letter noting their faith.

 

[Jeff_56]

you have posted a lot of error, a lot that is wrong, that is false and plainly contrary to Scripture, in many threads for a while now.

shall i start replying to your errors ? (i don't really have time, nor want to, and you haven't listened to those who have tried to correct you scripturally so far.....)

Go away, Jeff. We don't want you talking smack here.

 

[DesiredHaven]

I was mainly addressing this: "If someone stated that Californians were all liars, evil beasts with slow bellies, would you not think it kind of rude (even stereotypical) to agree with that?"


Not sure if that means you thought the Christians on Crete would feel Paul was rude.
They probably understood Paul's quote as a generalization and not aimed at them. And then Paul does close his letter noting their faith.

No not the christians on Crete (in particular) but rather christians in general (today) for the most part seeing how Paul agreed in what most might consider a very rude way of putting something concerning a people.

You see it all the time, when others call something that is more stereotypical of a people (or generally speaking) "rude" (or not in the spirit of love) which often isnt half as bad as that saying (as it might be judged so). But we know Paul would not be considered rude (or as one not walking in love).

As long as its written in ink (and has an apostle attached to being in agreement with the saying) he would naturally be vindicated for agreeing in that (and of a saying one might consider rude, but also of "other prophets") which are not of the Lord's (but of their own).

However, if someone said something similar to what he said (generally speaking) and even a toned down version of stereotypical insults of a people (especially agreeing with prophets not the Lord's) in the same, they would certainly be lectured or correct for it (in some way).

Do a like experiment with it and see for yourself. Thats could be interesting too.