the crucifixion of you, in Christ.

[Stunnedbygrace]

When Paul said "I die daily" he was talking about being persecuted for spreading the gospel and that his life was constantly in danger. It has absolutely nothing to do with "dying to self" - we have been taught that in our religious upbringing.

I encourage you to look at that scripture "in context".

We "pick up our cross and follow Him" by acknowledging that we too went to the cross with Jesus and are now died to the old man and we are joined to Jesus now and we live by His life in us.

We do not crucify ourselves - we have already been crucified with Christ. We need to know these truths to grow up in the Lord.

When you see who you really are in Christ - in your inner man of the heart. You will start to consider ourselves alive to God through the Lord Jesus.

Why would we want to die to ourselves when we are in Christ. It's all in the perspective of where our minds are at. We are to focus on the fact that we are now children of God - born again and with a new nature - just like our Father's ( Eph 4:23 ) We are confusing the flesh ( which has the law of sin in it ) with the new person in Christ.


Your old man has died! Now it is time for the renewing of our minds to this newness of life we have in Christ in our inner man created in righteousness and holiness. We are transformed by the renewing of our mind as we behold the glory of the Lord as in a mirror - this is done by the Holy Spirit in us. We do not put to death again what is already died.

Why would Paul be willing to face persecution unless he was no longer living but Christ in him lived...?
And yet he didn't think he had attained to perfection yet.

If we are to crucify our old desires, as an apostle says elsewhere, (if we are putting to death the desires of the old man, by the Spirit, our Helper) and if our quarrels come from those desires within us, then those desires don't just all die the day we meet God and receive His Spirit. Some things are changed immediately. I think we've all experienced that.

Jesus won't force a man to put himself on the cross, it has to be agreed to willingly. It takes time for Him to convince us that the old man has to die (that we have to give up our life to save it.) Heck, it takes Him a long time to get us to see that these desires even ARE still hindering us from what we so badly want. The flesh fights against the Spirit and it won't obey the Spirit. It never will. That's why it has to die. The flesh will still die because of sin.

 

[FreeNChrist]

John Murray best said it...


"The old man is the unregenerate man; the new man is the regenerate man created in Christ Jesus unto good works. It is no more feasible to call the believer a new man and an old man, than it is to call him a regenerate man and an unregenerate."

 

[Grace777x70]

Why would Paul be willing to face persecution unless he was no longer living but Christ in him lived...?
And yet he didn't think he had attained to perfection yet.

If we are to crucify our old desires, as an apostle says elsewhere, (if we are putting to death the desires of the old man, by the Spirit, our Helper) and if our quarrels come from those desires within us, then those desires don't just all die the day we meet God and receive His Spirit. Some things are changed immediately. I think we've all experienced that.

Jesus won't force a man to put himself on the cross, it has to be agreed to willingly. It takes time for Him to convince us that the old man has to die (that we have to give up our life to save it.) Heck, it takes Him a long time to get us to see that these desires even ARE still hindering us from what we so badly want. The flesh fights against the Spirit and it won't obey the Spirit. It never will. That's why it has to die. The flesh will still die because of sin.

The old man is dead..he is not alive...it says to put aside the deeds of the body ( which is the flesh which still has the law of sin in it ). We need to have our minds renewed to the realities of the new creation in Christ. We do not focus on the deeds of the body - we focus on our new life which is Christ in us.

Romans 8:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

Nobody puts anyone on a cross...that already happened. We died when Christ died. This is what I'm trying to get across - is that we are focusing on and trying to change something that is already gone.

The old man doesn't have to die daily - he died with Christ. It's our religious teachings that have taught us this because we don't understand the new creation in Christ.

Is Jesus still dying on the cross? We have died in the "same likeness " as Jesus did.

Romans 6:5-6 (NASB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,

[SUP]6 [/SUP] knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;


We don't focus on the old habits and ways of living that were our former manner of living - we focus on Christ and His life in us. ( Eph. 4:22-23 - "in reference to your former manner of life" ) we lay aside the former ways of thinking.

Which is why we need to have our minds ( brains which is where we have stored our thinking and past ways of living ) renewed to this new way of thinking - which is we are a new creation in Christ and He is our life now.


Trying to die to something that has already been dead is like praying for the Father to send His Messiah down to earth to die for us again. It ain't gonna happen. We need to be "alive" unto God now that we are a new man/woman in Christ. He is our focus.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

The old man is dead..he is not alive...it says to put aside the deeds of the body ( which is the flesh which still has the law of sin in it ). We need to have our minds renewed to the realities of the new creation in Christ. We do not focus on the deeds of the body - we focus on our new life which is Christ in us.

Romans 8:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

Nobody puts anyone on a cross...that already happened. We died when Christ died. This is what I'm trying to get across - is that we are focusing on and trying to change something that is already gone.

The old man doesn't have to die daily - he died with Christ. It's our religious teachings that have taught us this because we don't understand the new creation in Christ.

Is Jesus still dying on the cross? We have died in the "same likeness " as Jesus did.

Romans 6:5-6 (NASB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,

[SUP]6 [/SUP] knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;


We don't focus on the old habits and ways of living that were our former manner of living - we focus on Christ and His life in us. ( Eph. 4:22-23 - "in reference to your former manner of life" ) we lay aside the former ways of thinking.

Which is why we need to have our minds ( brains which is where we have stored our thinking and past ways of living ) renewed to this new way of thinking - which is we are a new creation in Christ and He is our life now.


Trying to die to something that has already been dead is like praying for the Father to send His Messiah down to earth to die for us again. It ain't gonna happen. We need to be "alive" unto God now that we are a new man/woman in Christ. He is our focus.

I may be at a different stage than you. I am sort of in...like...you know how Paul gives a list of things in Colossians? He says...you have this new life in you. Therefore put to death whatever is in you that is earthly. So Paul understood that these things need to go. He said, put to death whatever is earthly in you.

I guess I'm there still, after ten years, because it took me so long to understand that this could happen only by trust and prayer.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

John Murray best said it...


"The old man is the unregenerate man; the new man is the regenerate man created in Christ Jesus unto good works. It is no more feasible to call the believer a new man and an old man, than it is to call him a regenerate man and an unregenerate."

I could believe this if it wasn't for the fact that my unregenerate man, who is my enemy and my Lords' enemy, rises up to harass me so often. (Oh, she is so selfish. She should treat you better. No one should be allowed to speak to you that way and not get the tongue lashing they deserve. No one should walk all over me like this. Oh, they are all about their own comfort and expect you to do all the work, etc.) He's still there in me and it does me no good to act like he isn't. And if I shut my eyes to him and don't acknowledge that he is there, I will not pray for the help I need against my enemies.

So I'm saying, I may just be at a different place than you guys. I have only recently discovered that I can't change my own spots just by gritting my teeth and trying harder. Maybe your enemies are dead now because you are further along than me. I want these enemies to die. I agree they are my enemies. I know He will slay them if I look to Him. That's where I'm at, having begun to see great victories in Him, but still harassed at times.

 

[Grace777x70]

I may be at a different stage than you. I am sort of in...like...you know how Paul gives a list of things in Colossians? He says...you have this new life in you. Therefore put to death whatever is in you that is earthly. So Paul understood that these things need to go. He said, put to death whatever is earthly in you.

I guess I'm there still, after ten years, because it took me so long to understand that this could happen only by trust and prayer.

I understand completely. I too because of what I was taught thought that I had to fight the flesh. We don't look to the flesh - we look to the Spirit for it is by the Spirit that we put to death of deeds of the body ( flesh) so that we don't fulfill "it's" desires. Romans 6:12

The understanding that we have a new heart now in Christ and that is where "our" true desires come from - is important to learn this because if not - then we are forever trying to "clean up the flesh" and it cannot be cleaned up. It's here with us until the time we go to be with the Lord.

In the flesh is where the outbursts of anger is, the malice, slander, envy, adultery, etc. ( Those will always be there until we leave this earth )

The true Christian life is not trying to die to ourselves - it's the complete opposite - we are to "live to ourselves" - our true selves in Christ now - living with Christ in God and that is to be our focus.

Colossians 3:1-3 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Therefore if you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.

[SUP]2 [/SUP] Set your mind on the things above, not on the things that are on earth.

[SUP]3 [/SUP] For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God.

 

[John146]

is Jesus your Lord bruce? if you have already died with Jesus then your actions are Jesus actions? so are you out there raising the dead? are you out there saving others? No. you spend your time arguing that Jesus is wrong. God will never EVER EVVVVER say to any human being " you don't need to obey Jesus" never ever will God say that. NEVVVER. he will noe until eternity say the exact same things as Jesus said 2000 years ago. it doesn't matter to God if there are 1000 false doctrines that seek to dethrone His only Son, WHO IS THE ONLY SOVERIEGN AND LORD, that same Jesus who will never change or waiver, will always and forever be the authority, the Lord, the only way, truth or Life for any chroistian. you, jp, wommack, Copeland, parsley or whoever else there is in existence.


if anyone accepts that Jesus is the Lord, sincerely, that Jesus Christ as recorded in His Gospel, is the Lord of all. then and only then is God pleased with that person. when Jesus is YOUR authority, then you can find rest. on the other hand if you just refuse His authority, you are deceived. so I guess go be crucified with Christ inwardly, ill go follow His word because Hes my Lord and says " obey my commands, I died for you, honor me" that's the gospel, it isn't imagining that you died and are equal to Jesus, that's simple herecy. anyone who ever denies Jesus and what He says is right is existing in a lie

Lordship Salvation at it's core. It comes from reading a corrupt translation.

Romans 10:9 NIV "If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,”and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved."

Romans 10:9 KJV "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."

I can't simple declare with my mouth that Jesus is Lord and get saved. One day, all will declare that Jesus Christ is Lord. That's not going to save them. I must declare THE LORD JESUS AND WHAT HE'S DONE FOR ME AT THE CROSS FOR MY SINS. Once I am saved, I start making Jesus my Lord. That will not fully be attainable until the redemption of our bodies, the adoption.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I understand completely. I too because of what I was taught thought that I had to fight the flesh. We don't look to the flesh - we look to the Spirit for it is by the Spirit that we put to death of deeds of the body ( flesh) so that we don't fulfill "it's" desires. Romans 6:12

The understanding that we have a new heart now in Christ and that is where "our" true desires come from - is important to learn this because if not - then we are forever trying to "clean up the flesh" and it cannot be cleaned up. It's here with us until the time we go to be with the Lord.

In the flesh is where the outbursts of anger is, the malice, slander, envy, adultery, etc. ( Those will always be there until we leave this earth )

The true Christian life is not trying to die to ourselves - it's the complete opposite - we are to "live to ourselves" - our true selves in Christ now - living with Christ in God and that is to be our focus.

Colossians 3:1-3 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Therefore if you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.

[SUP]2 [/SUP] Set your mind on the things above, not on the things that are on earth.

[SUP]3 [/SUP] For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God.

So when Paul speaks of putting to death these desires, this is what I see to be crucifying the flesh. Not feeding it so it dies. Not allowing it an inch. Dealing roughly with it because it's Gods' enemy. Not pampering it and allowing it to thrive.

 

[Grace777x70]

So when Paul speaks of putting to death these desires, this is what I see to be crucifying the flesh. Not feeding it so it dies. Not allowing it an inch. Dealing roughly with it because it's Gods' enemy. Not pampering it and allowing it to thrive.

Paul is giving a description....and it is as you have beautifully put it in an earlier post - we can't do it by what "we do" but it is by complete reliance on Christ and His grace and life.

It is by the Spirit within us in Christ only that the desires of the flesh can be overcome - not by our own self-effort. Paul puts it this way.

Galatians 5:24 (NASB)
[SUP]24 [/SUP] Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

Have crucified = Aorist indicative which is a one time event in the past ( which is what happened to us when we received Christ and were born-again )

We need to know that the real us in our spirit - created in righteousness is separated from our flesh by the sealing of the Holy Spirit. It's called the circumcision of Christ.

Here is a great teaching on this by a guy named James Barron - He is a lawyer from Orlando and has great revelation on this subject. The understanding of this and the new creation in Christ will change us to live according to who we already are in Christ as the Holy Spirit transforms us by renewing our mind to reflect outwardly the life of Christ to a hurt and dying world.

Here is the link

http://www.seeinggrace.com/archive_2012.html

Go down to this date and time:

Sunday, April 22, 2012 9:30am

 

[LaurenTM]

"If you Love me, you will obey my commands"- Jesus Christ, the Son of God

Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. Matthew 11:29

now are these 2 different Sons of God or are you not able to reconcile scripture and have managed to create imbalance in the words of Christ?

sincerely asking

 

[PeterJens]

Then he said to them all: “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross daily and follow me."
Luke 9:23

Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
Gal 5:24

The message is simple of self denial, and service. Contrast this with another gospel being preached.

**************
The true Christian life is not trying to die to ourselves - it's the complete opposite - we are to "live to ourselves"
**************

Those who preach the above preach a different gospel. They believe they are perfect
super-humans with a new spirit or self, which you have to realise.

Once you see this contrast of beliefs you see they are not following Christ but another faith.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Then he said to them all: “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross daily and follow me."
Luke 9:23

Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
Gal 5:24

The message is simple of self denial, and service. Contrast this with another gospel being preached.

**************
The true Christian life is not trying to die to ourselves - it's the complete opposite - we are to "live to ourselves"
**************

Those who preach the above preach a different gospel. They believe they are perfect
super-humans with a new spirit or self, which you have to realise.

Once you see this contrast of beliefs you see they are not following Christ but another faith.

I don't see him preaching another gospel. I think his mind takes it in differently and he phrases it differently. And I always want to argue with the way he says it at first because it sounds to me exactly as it does to some others - that God only is concerned with a legal declaration but without any of the rest of the gospel. But I don't think he is negating the rest, like all the work of the Holy Spirit inside us. I don't think he is saying none of that happens. Just that none of it happens by my hard work, so I have no reason to boast if I grow more humble or more patient, and in fact, should be aware that the moment I stop trusting in Him, and thinking anything He gives me can be mine APART from Him, I'll go down hard.

 

[FreeNChrist]

I could believe this if it wasn't for the fact that my unregenerate man, who is my enemy and my Lords' enemy, rises up to harass me so often. (Oh, she is so selfish. She should treat you better. No one should be allowed to speak to you that way and not get the tongue lashing they deserve. No one should walk all over me like this. Oh, they are all about their own comfort and expect you to do all the work, etc.) He's still there in me and it does me no good to act like he isn't. And if I shut my eyes to him and don't acknowledge that he is there, I will not pray for the help I need against my enemies.

So I'm saying, I may just be at a different place than you guys. I have only recently discovered that I can't change my own spots just by gritting my teeth and trying harder. Maybe your enemies are dead now because you are further along than me. I want these enemies to die. I agree they are my enemies. I know He will slay them if I look to Him. That's where I'm at, having begun to see great victories in Him, but still harassed at times.

So there's two of you in there??

What your talking about is the flesh (sarx). It would profit you do a proper and thorough study on what it is and what it isn't, when used in reference to behavior.

 

[lastofall]

"I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate [obstruct] the grace of God:" (Galatians 2:20-21a)
"And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." (Galatians 5:24)

 

[PeterJens]

I don't see him preaching another gospel. I think his mind takes it in differently and he phrases it differently. And I always want to argue with the way he says it at first because it sounds to me exactly as it does to some others - that God only is concerned with a legal declaration but without any of the rest of the gospel. But I don't think he is negating the rest, like all the work of the Holy Spirit inside us. I don't think he is saying none of that happens. Just that none of it happens by my hard work, so I have no reason to boast if I grow more humble or more patient, and in fact, should be aware that the moment I stop trusting in Him, and thinking anything He gives me can be mine APART from Him, I'll go down hard.

Stunned - There are many teachers and preachers who are simply heretical who grace777 pushes.

By the fruit you shall know them. These teachers are not even close to getting it right. Like grace777
they spend a long time talking about minor issues, and very convoluted words which actually say
very little.

Over the fundamental issues they change their meaning. Future sin forgiven is a core heresy.
Sin done now not repented of, confessed and worked through is another. Denying the basic statements
of Christ, and changing their meaning is the final end.

Love is not the transforming power they preach, but a mystical self realisation. But when you look
at what is happening in the church this is just make believe. The fruit of grace alone preaching is
licenousness. One person from our house group went to a worship training day, and the leader of the
group confessed though he loved praise and worship his life was a mess.

When I talk about the inner self, our hearts, I get attacked for being judgmental from the very people
who claim such higher authority and insight. These are milk issues that are being got wrong, how
could these people claim any spiritual maturity???

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Stunned - There are many teachers and preachers who are simply heretical who grace777 pushes.

By the fruit you shall know them. These teachers are not even close to getting it right. Like grace777
they spend a long time talking about minor issues, and very convoluted words which actually say
very little.

Over the fundamental issues they change their meaning. Future sin forgiven is a core heresy.
Sin done now not repented of, confessed and worked through is another. Denying the basic statements
of Christ, and changing their meaning is the final end.

Love is not the transforming power they preach, but a mystical self realisation. But when you look
at what is happening in the church this is just make believe. The fruit of grace alone preaching is
licenousness. One person from our house group went to a worship training day, and the leader of the
group confessed though he loved praise and worship his life was a mess.

When I talk about the inner self, our hearts, I get attacked for being judgmental from the very people
who claim such higher authority and insight. These are milk issues that are being got wrong, how
could these people claim any spiritual maturity???

Well, I disagree that they are heretical, peter. I might prefer the way others explain, and I don't agree with everything they dbelieve, but I can't expect a perfection from them of knowledge of God that even I don't possess. The very fact that we are all growing and learning and having our minds renewed should show us that none of us can expect perfect knowledge or even perfect behavior, from one another. Love covers a multitude of sins we don't even know we are committing, even as King David said.

 

[Grace777x70]

We are to live unto God. We don't focus on the flesh - we focus on Christ and our life with Him. If this "conflicts" with some one's natural mind and thinking - then so be it.

When we come to Christ we have been crucified with Him on the cross. This is our cross...identifying with His death and our death on the cross. The death of the old man that was in Adam and now we have been raised to newness of live in Christ.

Romans 14:8 (KJV)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.

2 Corinthians 5:15 (KJV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

Romans 6:8 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,

Just because some people do not understand with their natural mind that our old man has died and that we were raised with Christ to have a new heart created in righteousness and we are a new creation in Christ - doesn't mean it isn't true. And of course people are a heretic if they don't believe the way some one else does about this truth.

And grace believers always talk about he love of God for us - so that is just plain nonsense for anyone to say we don't talk about love and the Lord. Look at my signature - it says we are to look at others through the eyes and heart of the Lord. God is love.

I will address the forgiveness of sins with scripture in another post and you can either believe the scriptures or believe something else. The choice is for everyone.

 

[Grace777x70]

Forgiveness is a done deal - either believe it or don't believe it.

On the subject of forgiveness that we have in Christ now because of His precious Blood...here is what the scriptures say.....sometimes the truth in the gospel of the grace of Christ "conflicts" with what we have been religiously taught.

1 John 2:12 (NASB)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] I am writing to you, little children, because your sins have been forgiven you for His name's sake.

have been forgiven = perfect passive

perfect = The perfect tense in Greek is used to describe a completed past action which produced results which are still in effect all the way up to the present time. It is continuously happening in the present.

passive = voice = action is happening to you....you are not doing it

Without a doubt this verse says that the sins are forgiven from a past action that remains in a continuous completed state and that was put on them....not something they did.

Ephesians 1:7 (KJV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

We have redemption = present continuous action...so this means we have present continuous forgiveness of our sins...

and look...that grace stuff shows up again!...it's all according to the riches of our loving Father's grace that He has given to us in Christ our Lord.

Colossians 1:13-14 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son,

[SUP]14 [/SUP] in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

Same thing here too...present continuous action = forgiveness of sins


Redemption!..we have been bought with the precious Blood of Jesus... Let's honor His work.


Brethren ...we have a great salvation in our Lord!

Walk in the knowledge of your forgiveness in Christ and in that security we will experience maturity.

 

[followjesus]

When Paul said "I die daily" he was talking about being persecuted for spreading the gospel and that his life was constantly in danger. It has absolutely nothing to do with "dying to self" - we have been taught that in our religious upbringing.

I encourage you to look at that scripture "in context".

We "pick up our cross and follow Him" by acknowledging that we too went to the cross with Jesus and are now died to the old man and we are joined to Jesus now and we live by His life in us.

We do not crucify ourselves - we have already been crucified with Christ. We need to know these truths to grow up in the Lord.

When you see who you really are in Christ - in your inner man of the heart. You will start to consider ourselves alive to God through the Lord Jesus.

Why would we want to die to ourselves when we are in Christ. It's all in the perspective of where our minds are at. We are to focus on the fact that we are now children of God - born again and with a new nature - just like our Father's ( Eph 4:23 ) We are confusing the flesh ( which has the law of sin in it ) with the new person in Christ.


Your old man has died! Now it is time for the renewing of our minds to this newness of life we have in Christ in our inner man created in righteousness and holiness. We are transformed by the renewing of our mind as we behold the glory of the Lord as in a mirror - this is done by the Holy Spirit in us. We do not put to death again what is already died.

Now its time to follow Jesus. that will kill the old and bring the new into reality. Bruce, you and I clash. I do want you to understand you have good things to say, the issue is instead of learning how Grace comes through Jesus and realizing Grace doesn't omit Him, if you would take time to observe scripture and all it says of Jesus being the Lord of you. Grace would then actually begin to remove the flesh, or the circumcision you talk about. circumcision of the heart is what you need to follow Jesus for.


I emplore you to consider this. circumcision of the heart. is what I'm saying Jesus commands are. if your heart is full of Lust, following Jesus commands about removing it, and practicing purity of thought is how that circumcision happens in reality. sure you gotta Know you are new, but the new follows Jesus because they grasp all that you are saying. so the new man is not comfortable with a heart full of Lust, if He is new. the only way to remove that Lust is to listen to Jesus tell you what to do and do it. HE is the WAY.


paul isn't just saying think all of this stuff, hes saying act and live as the new man, don't just hear paul, learn paul do what paul is teaching. concerning pauls struggle with His flesh he also says

1 Corinthians 9:24-27 "Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one gets the prize? Run in such a way as to get the prize. Everyone who competes in the games goes into strict training. They do it to get a crown that will not last, but we do it to get a crown that will last forever. Therefore I do not run like someone running aimlessly; I do not fight like a boxer beating the air. No, I strike a blow to my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize."

is this a man who is already assured of salvation here? imitate pauls way of Life. go to work serving Jesus in all things in every way accept the Lord. press on toward the goal, don't sit at the starting line and tell the runners not to run.run the race, go into training, Give God all your heart as He says by following Him, learning Hois ways and doing what HE is saying to do. if youll ever accept the truth of Jesus, you will do a lot of good for others because you have a good understanding of some important things, the false part is anything that opposes your Lords word. they are eternal

 

[followjesus]

Forgiveness is a done deal - either believe it or don't believe it.

On the subject of forgiveness that we have in Christ now because of His precious Blood...here is what the scriptures say.....sometimes the truth in the gospel of the grace of Christ "conflicts" with what we have been religiously taught.

1 John 2:12 (NASB)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] I am writing to you, little children, because your sins have been forgiven you for His name's sake.

have been forgiven = perfect passive

perfect = The perfect tense in Greek is used to describe a completed past action which produced results which are still in effect all the way up to the present time. It is continuously happening in the present.

passive = voice = action is happening to you....you are not doing it

Without a doubt this verse says that the sins are forgiven from a past action that remains in a continuous completed state and that was put on them....not something they did.

Ephesians 1:7 (KJV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

We have redemption = present continuous action...so this means we have present continuous forgiveness of our sins...

and look...that grace stuff shows up again!...it's all according to the riches of our loving Father's grace that He has given to us in Christ our Lord.

Colossians 1:13-14 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son,

[SUP]14 [/SUP] in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

Same thing here too...present continuous action = forgiveness of sins


Redemption!..we have been bought with the precious Blood of Jesus... Let's honor His work.


Brethren ...we have a great salvation in our Lord!

Walk in the knowledge of your forgiveness in Christ and in that security we will experience maturity.

I believe Jesus my Lord Bruce. "For if you forgive others when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will forgive you your sins, if you do not forgive others, your heavenly father will not forgive you your sins" that's your Lord and King speaking.

or again bruce " and when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive them so that your heavenly Father may forgive you your sins"

if a Christian accepts Jesus forgiveness, and refuses to forgive others, Jesus is clear.......this is why I have been telling you about ommital of Jesus which you say youd NEVER do. Jesus is not wrong, He has not been removed from authority so if you see His words and think you are right and he is wrong, who is it that needs to adjust their thinking>Jesus, or Bruce? again reminding you that just last night you said its "ridiculous of coarse He is my Lord and savior" maybe look up the term Lord and see what that means and ask yourselof "Am I treating Jesus as my Lord if I'm arguing against His own words?"