The doctrine I don't want to believe-eternal fire

[Yeraza_Bats]

Ive heard there are alot of Christians today who are leaving the teachings of hell behind, and even some who are saying they dont believe satan exists. I kinda feel that saying these things are calling Christ a liar.

Alot of people in the world talk like all you have to do is not hurt people and your fine. They talk about how Christians who talk about hell are mean and cruel. It kinda seems like the world is pushing towards some feel good faith with a god whos free loving and lets you do what you want. The bible speaks often of His wrath, and how hes bringing it down on the earth, and that most of us will not be saved but be part of His wrath. But we have people trying to forget that and talk about how God is a loving God and would never do such a thing. I think they misunderstand what a loving God is, He is a loving God because He is giving us a way out of His wrath, that we all have walked into on our own. Not that hes gonna leave behind His wrath entirely. When someone brings up how they cant understand how a loving God could do that, perhaps we should talk about why Hes a loving God, that He sent His son to save those who will accept His will and follow Him grace and save them from His wrath, not because He has called it off.

And I dont think hell is temporary, God called it eternal. Many people have seen it, and they always describe it the same way. It wasnt even the pain that was that bad, it was the fact they knew it would never end.
I once heard that there are some religions based on the bible that say hell is temporary. I think these are demonic perversions of the word to mislead men.

The good news is that we have been warned, and given a way out of it :3 Not that Hes leaving His wrath behind.

 

[kennethcadwell]

You always find a way to complicate a simple truth by adding to it things that are not so. Saved is saved and saved forever. Christ is the Servant of the saved. Christ constantly ministers to us our salvation.

Hell remains the domain of the diabolical one who constantly rejects God.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

I did not add nothing, go and read Luke 12 and you will see that what I said is all in that chapter.
So if you have an issue with what I said, talk to the Lord about it because it comes directly from His word.

Luke 12:45-48

The disobedient servant
45 But suppose the servant says to himself, ‘My master is taking a long time in coming,’ and he then begins to beat the other servants, both men and women, and to eat and drink and get drunk. 46 The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers.
47“The servant who knows the master’s will and does not get ready or does not do what the master wants will be beaten with many blows. 48 But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.

 

[AtonedFor]

Just like believers get different rewards for how obedient they were,
unbelievers and the disobedient will be given different lengths of punishment......

From what I've learned over the years ...
there are different levels (rows) in Heaven ... out horizontally from the Throne,
and
there are different levels in Hell (with progressively worse conditions) ... vertically.

 

[kennethcadwell]

where do you get this stuff?

Hell is hell is hell.. who suffers more is who has an attitude, If I know I deserve it (in unbelief) I will suffer the same, yet be in lesser torment than those who had Gods truth in their hands, were so close to accepting it, but in the end decided he did not want it,, and find out that he was wrong.

to him it will be more torment, because he had Gods salvation on the tip of his fingers and let it go .

no place in scripture does it says ones life will be snuffed out completely. God made us eternal beings, we will be eternal. where we spend is up to how we react to the gospel.

we recieve it and trust it, we will be with God, we reject it, we will be apart from God (which is hell)

Read post #22, it comes from what Jesus said of the disobedient servant, and unbelievers....

 

[Word_Swordsman]

The thing we must realize though is that in some of the scriptures we look at is referring to the punishment some face will be eternal and last forever, others are just saying that the fires or place of punishment last forever not all who goes there.

We can see this in other scriptures were it says that people who are sent to eternal punishment are judged by their works, and punished as such. If they all burned for eternity they would all face the same punishment.
Then Lord Jesus Himself said that some will be beaten ( punished ) more than others, and even a disobedient servant ( hearer but not a doer/goat ) will be placed with the unbelievers to be punished and will be punished more then somebody who never believed. ( Luke 12 )

Then we have Malachi 4:3 where it says we will walk on the ashes of those who were burnt up, showing that the punishment was a eternal punishment. Meaning there spirit will not exist anymore, not even in punishment.


Just like believers get different rewards for how obedient they were, unbelievers and the disobedient will be given different lengths of punishment......

Brother in Christ, I must have the exact verse in Luke 12 in context of the whole chapter consistent with all the New Testament scriptures.

As for Malachi, the flesh will indeed be reduced to ashes, speaking of the fallen invading soldiers at the battle of Armageddon.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Read post #22, it comes from what Jesus said of the disobedient servant, and unbelievers....

and who is the disobedient young servant?

where not the pharisees of the law the servant of God who were disobedient (God gave them charge according to the law)

They believed in God, but they did not believe in what mattered. so they started to treat the people of God and beat on them. Even killing Christ.

So they will get theirs.

you have to remember, Jesus at this time still spoke concerning the law. Not the NT things.

The whole nation of Israel was given much, they mistreated their gift, and look how they have beaten over the last 2000 years.

[SUP]59 [/SUP]I tell you, you shall not depart from there till you have paid the very last mite.”

He is not just talking eternal punishment but temporal punishment as well.

 

[kennethcadwell]

From what I've learned over the years ...
there are different levels (rows) in Heaven ... out horizontally from the Throne,
and
there are different levels in Hell (with progressively worse conditions) ... vertically.

I don't know if I necessarily believe in different levels ( rows ), but the bible gives scriptures that talk about different punishments for how people lived their life. One of which is like I gave where Jesus Himself shows different punishments issued out. Then 1 Corinthians shows different rewards for believers on how they lived.

 

[Reborn]

*Commas are "are" friend brother Blain.

"our" I mean.
....so is proper word usage and spelling.
I guess that's what I get? Sorry Blain.
....continue.........

 

[sealchan]

The debate on eternal damnation has popped up here and there lately, many say that a loving father such as God would never make someone suffer for eternity. I myself did not want to believe this and I still don't, I do not wish that any person would have to endure the fires of all for all eternity but I also understand that just because I don't want to believe it just because it doesn't seem right or fair to me doesn't matter for out thoughts are not his thoughts and he is a righteous and fair God.

Actually it does matter how you feel about the belief...if you can't understand it in your heart then the Word isn't written in your heart. Sometimes this might be for lack of understanding on the believer's part, but sometimes this is for lack of communication on the part of the written source. This is why it is important to not just read one Bible or even to assume that any two or three Bibles are sufficient for our understanding. It is tempting to assume that a given Bible perfectly transmits the Word of God to a given individual. The temptation is to forego the work that involves relationship with God more directly (than the Bible) through prayer and reflection on the experience of one's life. God speaks to us through His creation and even through the actions of others, good or ill.

 

[kennethcadwell]

and who is the disobedient young servant?

where not the pharisees of the law the servant of God who were disobedient (God gave them charge according to the law)

They believed in God, but they did not believe in what mattered. so they started to treat the people of God and beat on them. Even killing Christ.

So they will get theirs.

you have to remember, Jesus at this time still spoke concerning the law. Not the NT things.

The whole nation of Israel was given much, they mistreated their gift, and look how they have beaten over the last 2000 years.

[SUP]59 [/SUP]I tell you, you shall not depart from there till you have paid the very last mite.”

He is not just talking eternal punishment but temporal punishment as well.

He is not talking about Pharisees here.
He is talking about all of us, we are all called to serve His will. If He comes and sees us not doing His will in our lives, then we will be considered disobedient servants. This has nothing to do with the pharisees and keeping of the mosaic law.
This has to do with those who say Jesus still has a long time before He comes back, so I can continue to do things I want to do and repent and ask forgiveness of them later because I have plenty of time.
The problem is your clock may get punched out sooner then you think, we don't know the time of our own deaths nor do we know when He is going to come back. So if you sit back continue to do your own thing, and think you have plenty of time so you don't worry about needing to change and repent tell later. He is saying you will have a rude wake up call.

 

[maxwel]

for the record an angel only visited me once and what you say is ridiculous could be the very thing someone here needed to read. God knows of my brain damage and knows of my medicine but more than once I have seen that even with all my physical and fleshly weaknesses such as you say he has used his spirit to replace. God is not limited to my damaged body. Do you know how bad my memory is? I can barely even rememeer how to do simple math I can't remember last Christmas even but I can remember every scripture I ever read I can remember every encounter I have had with the Lord. I have said before and I will say it again I am very weak in the ways of the world, I can't even remember to take my shots and have to be treated like a baby but I have always said that whatever ways I am weak in the world the Lord made me strong in his.


When I tell of my experiences my dreams and my visions I am attacked by many ppl but these dreams and visions these supernatural experiences are not to glorify me or make me seem special they are glorify God they are to be him speaking to me and then him speaking through these experiences to someone else here in cc. why exactly do you think this is ridiculous? do you not think God is the same today as he was yesterday? does he not still heal the sick? perform miracles? does he not still show dreams and visions as it was predicted when the scriptures say your young men will dream dreams and your old men shall see visions?

Blain... why should WE have confidence in anything you say?

Why?
Why should we?

YOU admit you have brain damage, YOU have said it's severe.

YOU say you can't even remember simple daily things.

YOU have even admitted in other threads you're a fairly new believer, and a BABE in Christ.
This means that on top of having brain damage, you've had no TIME to gain any EXPERIENCE or WISDOM.
- You have little experience in your walk with Christ,
- You have little experience in studying the scripture.
- You have little experience in applying scripture to your own life.
- You have little experience in ministering scripture to others.

WHY should we have any confidence in anything you say?
Why should we?

It would be WRONG and UNBIBLICAL for us to believe anything you say WITHOUT PROOF!
The bible says to PROVE all things.
1Thessalonians 5:21 "Prove all things; hold fast that which is good."
We should PROVE, and TEST things... to see if they're true.
We are NOT to believe whatever someone says WITHOUT PROOF

God doesn't tell us to be stupid, and believe anything someone says,
God COMMANDS US to be wise, and careful, and prudent.

God says we're IDIOTS if we believe you without proof.
Proverbs 14:15 "The simple believeth every word:"
The word "simple" here means a "simpleton", an "idiot".
Only an IDIOT believes whatever somebody says without PROOF.

 

[Dan58]

I think there's some confusion of what hell is; Hell Part 2: The Differences between Hades and the Lake of Fire

Its simply the grave, Sheol in the old testament, Hades in the new (Greek). Hell is not the Lake of Fire per se.

And the Lake of Fire is not eternal torture. Its the second death of body, soul, and spirit (Revelation 21:8). Its only described as eternal and forever because there's no coming back from it. It doesn't mean suffering forever, but simply that your dead and gone for all eternally, a permanent end. jmo

 

[eternally-gratefull]

He is not talking about Pharisees here.
He is talking about all of us, we are all called to serve His will. If He comes and sees us not doing His will in our lives, then we will be considered disobedient servants. This has nothing to do with the pharisees and keeping of the mosaic law.

I just used them as an example. was that so hard for you to understand. I did not mention a thing about keeping the law either, I was talking about who was Gods representative on earth at the time Jesus spoke those words, it just happened to be Israel. where were their spiritual leaders? it just happened to be the pharisees.

This has to do with those who say Jesus still has a long time before He comes back, so I can continue to do things I want to do and repent and ask forgiveness of them later because I have plenty of time.

Yeah I know alot of those people. Who reject Christ and do nto come to faith because they love their sin more than they love being saved,

These people were never saved, yet had the gospel and Gods eternal life on the tip of their fingers. they chose instead to live in sin, ad said they would do it later, Yet before they could do it, God came and took their life.

The problem is your clock may get punched out sooner then you think, we don't know the time of our own deaths nor do we know when He is going to come back. So if you sit back continue to do your own thing, and think you have plenty of time so you don't worry about needing to change and repent tell later. He is saying you will have a rude wake up call.

Yeah you will.

and like I said, these people were never saved, but had it on their fingertips. they tasted the love of God, and his holy spirit. but did not chew it properly like Jesus said to do in John 6. so they died in unbelief, even though they believed in Christ.

to them it will be more painful in hell. Not because they are punished more, but because they had it, and did not grasp it, take hold of it, and make it there own.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Brother in Christ, I must have the exact verse in Luke 12 in context of the whole chapter consistent with all the New Testament scriptures.

As for Malachi, the flesh will indeed be reduced to ashes, speaking of the fallen invading soldiers at the battle of Armageddon.

Not all burn for eternity, and Jesus makes that evident in Luke 12.
This is not talking about temporal punishment, as in why we are in the flesh or even in hell.
The reasoning is Jesus mentions that somebody that never has believed in Him facing punishment. People are not punished here on earth while in the flesh, for not believing in Him. He is talking about the punishments we will receive at judgment, those who were worse get a more extensive punishment.
And this is not talking about Hell either because believers don't go to hell, they go to Abraham's bosom on the good side of Hades where no punishment is issued out.

That and in Luke 12 He clearly says when the Master comes ( His coming ) if He finds us not living by His will in our lives, but still doing our own thing we will be punished, not eternal life.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I think there's some confusion of what hell is; Hell Part 2: The Differences between Hades and the Lake of Fire

Its simply the grave, Sheol in the old testament, Hades in the new (Greek). Hell is not the Lake of Fire per se.

And the Lake of Fire is not eternal torture. Its the second death of body, soul, and spirit (Revelation 21:8). Its only described as eternal and forever because there's no coming back from it. It doesn't mean suffering forever, but simply that your dead and gone for all eternally, a permanent end. jmo

this makes no sense.

rev 20: [SUP]14 [/SUP]Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. [SUP]15 [/SUP]And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

Rev 20: 10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Not all burn for eternity, and Jesus makes that evident in Luke 12.
This is not talking about temporal punishment, as in why we are in the flesh or even in hell.
The reasoning is Jesus mentions that somebody that never has believed in Him facing punishment. People are not punished here on earth while in the flesh, for not believing in Him. He is talking about the punishments we will receive at judgment, those who were worse get a more extensive punishment.
And this is not talking about Hell either because believers don't go to hell, they go to Abraham's bosom on the good side of Hades where no punishment is issued out.

That and in Luke 12 He clearly says when the Master comes ( His coming ) if He finds us not living by His will in our lives, but still doing our own thing we will be punished, not eternal life.

Dude, if you die in unbelief, you will not get a second chance you have committed the unpardonable sin, and removed from the book of life, and cast into the lake of fire with Satan and his angels. there is no getting out.

 

[sealchan]

True enough he is a very loving father but he is not a tame God he does have a righteous anger and judgement. He is not a teddy bear and is to be feared as well as adored.

God is a good parent. There are times in a parent's experience where they know if they don't forcibly intervene, that child will be lost (to a passing car, a cliff's edge, etc.). The child's will, guided by his or her limited experience, greater energy and spontaneity, will just plain get them killed if someone doesn't intervene on their behalf. This is still true for adults who in extended communities (groups, cities, countries) still exhibit childish behavior (war, greed, etc.). So God as our common parent has to provide us some severe warnings to keep us from destroying ourselves.

Part of the injustice that we perceive is that God seems like He should be responsible for all the bad things that can happen. Indeed He is in many ways as he created the Universe and all of its potentials. However, since we cannot do what God has done, we cannot know that it could have or should have been possible to build a better, more moral Universe to live in. God set in motion the laws of physics and even the freedom of human beings to sin. We cannot judge this state of affairs on the whole but we must struggle to live in it.

One thing that helps me to keep my thoughts and feelings on all of this properly aligned is that there is the real possibility that this planet and all life on it could be destroyed by a collision with an asteroid or comet or other object of sufficient size. One moment, with little warning, and all of humanities efforts will be over in but a moment. The likelihood of this is small, but it is not, perhaps, negligible. To me I think that as we all become aware of this fact we are in the same position as Noah was before the Flood. No one wants to believe it could happen. But someone hears the truth of God and takes action. Many others fail to heed His voice and suffer accordingly.

As God's people we are, in fact, faced with some all or nothing decisions in our collective lives. God has warned us of these possibilities throughout scripture. I, for one, do not think we should take the opinion that scripture is going to give us enough information that we won't have to think for ourselves about how to avoid complete destruction.

 

[dcontroversal]

Dude, if you die in unbelief, you will not get a second chance you have committed the unpardonable sin, and removed from the book of life, and cast into the lake of fire with Satan and his angels. there is no getting out.

No doubt........just goes to show how one who has trusted into a gospel of a different kind, has not been born of the spirit and is blind to the entire truth of the bible.......misapplication of scripture, twisted scripture, out of context scripture and absolutely no clue to the validity of the word....

The natural man cannot receive the things of God, neither can he know them because the are SPIRITUALLY DISCERNED!

 

[Atwood]

The doctrine of the majority of men ending up in eternal torture in a Lake of Fire, does indeed seem a horrible doctrine. It would seem more consistent with a loving God that in His plan everyone gets transformed to a holy child of God and lives in eternal bliss in a universe without suffering, pain, & sin. Or if that be not so, that those who refuse salvation are annihilated, again with the result all all who live live in eternal bliss in a universe without suffering, pain, & sin. The lost would just cease to exist.

However, the Word of God does not teach the above. Everlasting damnation in the Lake of Fire is the teaching. Now who am I to think I could improve on God's plan or re-write His Bible?

We may as well postulate that since God is love, and since God could not do anything else in creation other than create everyone good; thus sin never happened, and we are deluded if we think there is sin and suffering in the world. Islamists chopping off children's heads must be a myth then. Feeding people into wood chopping machines must be a lie. Babies surely are not sliced up in pieces by doctors & fed down garbage disposals. At least what we know of life & history must be no more than a bad dream.

But we should consider that the Lord has Himself endured the suffering of the damned on the cross. He has provided a way to escape. All anyone need do is to trust the Savior to save Him.

Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins.

 

[Ugly]

These religions exist, and have existed for a long time, they are now just beginning to gain popularity. New Age and many eastern religions have such teachings.

Ive heard there are alot of Christians today who are leaving the teachings of hell behind, and even some who are saying they dont believe satan exists. I kinda feel that saying these things are calling Christ a liar.

Alot of people in the world talk like all you have to do is not hurt people and your fine. They talk about how Christians who talk about hell are mean and cruel. It kinda seems like the world is pushing towards some feel good faith with a god whos free loving and lets you do what you want. The bible speaks often of His wrath, and how hes bringing it down on the earth, and that most of us will not be saved but be part of His wrath. But we have people trying to forget that and talk about how God is a loving God and would never do such a thing. I think they misunderstand what a loving God is, He is a loving God because He is giving us a way out of His wrath, that we all have walked into on our own. Not that hes gonna leave behind His wrath entirely. When someone brings up how they cant understand how a loving God could do that, perhaps we should talk about why Hes a loving God, that He sent His son to save those who will accept His will and follow Him grace and save them from His wrath, not because He has called it off.

And I dont think hell is temporary, God called it eternal. Many people have seen it, and they always describe it the same way. It wasnt even the pain that was that bad, it was the fact they knew it would never end.
I once heard that there are some religions based on the bible that say hell is temporary. I think these are demonic perversions of the word to mislead men.

The good news is that we have been warned, and given a way out of it :3 Not that Hes leaving His wrath behind.