The Fullness of the Gentiles

zone · Mar 28, 2013

zone said:

oh look it says Zechariah was actually fulfilled in Christ's Time.

John 19
Jesus’ Side Is Pierced
31Since it was the day of Preparation, and so that the bodies would not remain on the cross on the Sabbath (for that Sabbath was a high day), the Jews asked Pilate that their legs might be broken and that they might be taken away. 32So the soldiers came and broke the legs of the first, and of the other who had been crucified with him. 33But when they came to Jesus and saw that he was already dead, they did not break his legs. 34But one of the soldiers pierced his side with a spear, and at once there came out blood and water. 35He who saw it has borne witness—his testimony is true, and he knows that he is telling the truth—that you also may believe. 36For these things took place that the Scripture might be fulfilled: “Not one of his bones will be broken.” 37And again another Scripture says, “They will look on him whom they have pierced.”

course nobody mourned for Him...certainly not his mother or john or the other marys. nope - they partied.

John 19
So the soldiers did these things, 25 but standing by the cross of Jesus were his mother and his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene. 26 When Jesus saw his mother and the disciple whom he loved standing nearby, he said to his mother, “Woman, behold, your son!” 27 Then he said to the disciple, “Behold, your mother!” And from that hour the disciple took her to his own home.

and these people weren't mourning and lamenting for him: there followed him a great multitude of the people and of women who were mourning and lamenting for him.

Luke 23
The Crucifixion
26 And as they led him away, they seized one Simon of Cyrene, who was coming in from the country, and laid on him the cross, to carry it behind Jesus. 27 And there followed him a great multitude of the people and of women who were mourning and lamenting for him. 28 But turning to them Jesus said, “Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for me, but weep for yourselves and for your children. 29 For behold, the days are coming when they will say, ‘Blessed are the barren and the wombs that never bore and the breasts that never nursed!’ 30 Then they will begin to say to the mountains, ‘Fall on us,’ and to the hills, ‘Cover us.’ 31 For if they do these things when the wood is green, what will happen when it is dry?”

nope THEY REJOICED AND HAD A PARTY!

anybody agree no one mourned for Jesus when he died...and no one looked upon him whom they pierced.
who agrees with that

Ariel82 · Mar 28, 2013

stek said:

Zone could you be a little more specific?? only 20 scriptures. lol

As I understand Zechariah to be a prophet (minor at that) and this is prophecy. Prophecy is usually symbolic. So to help this poor under-educated person What are the symbolic meanings of Judah, Jerusalem and the House of David. I think these are important to know in determining if the Prophecy is ful-filled, to be ful-filled or being fulfilled.

day:
3117 yowm yome from an unused root meaning to be hot; a day (as the warm hours), whether literal (from sunrise to sunset, or from one sunset to the next), or figurative (a space of time defined by an associated term), (often used adverb):--age, + always, + chronicals, continually(-ance), daily, ((birth-), each, to) day, (now a, two) days (agone), + elder, X end, + evening, + (for) ever(-lasting, -more), X full, life, as (so) long as (... live), (even) now, + old, + outlived, + perpetually, presently, + remaineth, X required, season, X since, space, then, (process of) time, + as at other times, + in trouble, weather, (as) when, (a, the, within a) while (that), X whole (+ age), (full) year(-ly), + younger.

Zone, I think he is referring to this post. you said you'd answer him later..............

stek · Mar 28, 2013

Throughout the ages, there has been a succession of enemies making war upon Israel and the Church. Those that are for keeping up and advancing the kingdom of sin in the world look upon Jerusalem and the Church as the great obstacle to their designs, and their goal is the destruction of both, but they will find it harder to do than they think. God will have a church in this world in spite of them. The church will outlast her enemies because the Lord builds her upon a rock. The stone, cut out of the mountain without hands will not only keep it, but it will fill the earth (Daniel 2:35). It will break into pieces all who oppose it as the stone smote the image (Daniel 2:35). Those that make a jest of religion, and sacred things, will find them a burdensome stone. They will bring upon themselves an insupportable sinking load of guilt. Our Savior seems to allude to these words when he speaks of Himself as a burdensome stone to those that will not have Him for their foundation stone, which shall “fall upon them and grind them to power” (Matthew 21:44).

My question is usually in prophecy is symbolic, and I have heard havent done any research on this to know if it is true or not, that Judah is some times used for Gentiles or that Judah was ful of Gentiles. So I am wondering if Jerusalem isnt israel and Judah the Gentiles.

stek · Mar 28, 2013

We might think the effect of the pouring out of the Spirit of grace there would be rejoicing, and it is true that this is one of the fruits of the pouring out of the Spirit, but the Lord says they will mourn, a mourning that will end in rejoicing and has a blessing in it. It is a mourning grounded upon a sight of Christ. Predicted in this verse is the piercing of Christ, it is quoted in John 19:37 and fulfilled when Christ’s side was pierced upon the cross. The piercing in this verse is primarily a reference to the Jews in their rejection of Jesus as their Messiah. However, it is also true of Christians and all non-Christians. We have pierced Christ, inasmuch, as our sins were the cause of His death. Those that truly repent of sin look upon Christ as one whom they have pierced and they mourn. This is the effect of their looking to Christ.

coconut · Mar 28, 2013

zone said:

I believe I do understand the scriptures, but not as you do. I think you might be out numbered when it comes to understanding who Israel is and their place in the plan and will of God. Go on and believe as you do but don't be hostile with those who are convinced otherwise, who also have the Spirit.

Ariel82 · Mar 28, 2013

it sounds like you are quoting this, can you give the website/ cite the source?

stek said:

i agree with the above... not sure what you mean by the below....

Never heard of Judah being used for the gentiles or Jerusalem symbolic for Israel. that's just kind of confusing......

stek · Mar 28, 2013

Ariel82 said:

The Second Oracle – Part 1 | Minor Prophets Bible Study

I have always been taught that most prophecy's are symbolic, so Judah may not mean the land of Judah but perhaps something else. Same with Jerusalem. So using a referrence that I find to be true and agree with the scriptures it refers to Israel and the Church not Judah and Jerusalem. So I am curious if anyone thinks those are symbolic? What are they symbolic of? i believe that is key in understanding the verse. Same with day.

I heard a sermon that was talking about Judah and the two sticks being united. Judah, if I recall this correctly was consider the gentiles. And god was uniting gentiles and Jews. Could the use of Judah be symbolic of gentiles or the church through out the passage. Could this be a oracle of events from the time of the Messiah to Chapter 14.

I am at work and trying to type between appointments so lots of typos, forgive me.

Ariel82 · Mar 28, 2013

Thanks for the link... Just realized that going into Zech and symbolism would be off topic, which is suppose to be the fullness of the gentiles................. maybe another thread?

stek · Mar 28, 2013

Ariel82 said:

yes probably so, but noticed for the last several pages you all have been disagreeing about Zechariah. Or am I just confused.

Ariel82 · Mar 28, 2013

nah, you're right. just had my conscience pricked that we were derailing the thread....

doulos · Mar 28, 2013

Ariel82 said:

Thankyou for trying to be considerate! I would have preferred it stayed on track, but it’s ok, the subject evolved, I can live with that. I don’t think the derailment was malicious, the discussion just kind of evolved that way. It’s all good Zec12 is an interesting subect and worth discussion.

May God bless the discussion and make it productive!

Katy-follower · Mar 28, 2013

coconut said:

Absolutely, 100% agree.

Zech 12:10 is the precondition of Christ's second coming.

There will be no second coming until Israel's plea and confession that they rejected Jesus as their Messiah. He will not return until they look to the one they pierced, and cry out for Him to return, mourning for Him.

Matthew 23:37-39: "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! See! Your house is left to you desolate; for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’ "

Hosea 5:15: "I will go and return to My place Till they acknowledge their offense. Then they will seek My face; In their affliction they will earnestly seek Me.”

Clearly, Zech 12:10 has not yet been fulfilled.

zone · Mar 30, 2013

Katy-follower said:

Katy, can you read the following passages and say Zech has not been fulfilled?

and this isn't actually written anywhere:

"There will be no second coming until Israel's plea and confession that they rejected Jesus as their Messiah. He will not return until they look to the one they pierced, and cry out for Him to return, mourning for Him"

John 19
Jesus’ Side Is Pierced
31Since it was the day of Preparation, and so that the bodies would not remain on the cross on the Sabbath (for that Sabbath was a high day), the Jews asked Pilate that their legs might be broken and that they might be taken away. 32So the soldiers came and broke the legs of the first, and of the other who had been crucified with him. 33But when they came to Jesus and saw that he was already dead, they did not break his legs. 34But one of the soldiers pierced his side with a spear, and at once there came out blood and water. 35He who saw it has borne witness—his testimony is true, and he knows that he is telling the truth—that you also may believe. 36For these things took place that the Scripture might be fulfilled: “Not one of his bones will be broken.” 37And again another Scripture says, “They will look on him whom they have pierced.”

Clearly, Zech 12 has been fulfilled - they will look upon him whom they pierced.

and nobody mourned for Him?...not his mother or john or the other marys?

John 19
So the soldiers did these things, 25 but standing by the cross of Jesus were his mother and his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene. 26 When Jesus saw his mother and the disciple whom he loved standing nearby, he said to his mother, “Woman, behold, your son!” 27 Then he said to the disciple, “Behold, your mother!” And from that hour the disciple took her to his own home.

and these people weren't mourning and lamenting for him?:

"there followed him a great multitude of the people and of women who were mourning and lamenting for him".

Luke 23
The Crucifixion
26 And as they led him away, they seized one Simon of Cyrene, who was coming in from the country, and laid on him the cross, to carry it behind Jesus. 27 And there followed him a great multitude of the people and of women who were mourning and lamenting for him. 28 But turning to them Jesus said, “Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for me, but weep for yourselves and for your children. 29 For behold, the days are coming when they will say, ‘Blessed are the barren and the wombs that never bore and the breasts that never nursed!’ 30 Then they will begin to say to the mountains, ‘Fall on us,’ and to the hills, ‘Cover us.’ 31 For if they do these things when the wood is green, what will happen when it is dry?”

And there followed him a great multitude of the people and of women who were mourning and lamenting for him

For these things took place that the Scripture might be fulfilled: “Not one of his bones will be broken.”And again another Scripture says, “They will look on him whom they have pierced.”
so we see Zechariah fulfilled, don't we?

SarahM777 · Mar 30, 2013

How about this also

John 20

[SUP]24 [/SUP]Now Thomas (also known as Didymus[SUP][a][/SUP]), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came.[SUP]25 [/SUP]So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord!”
But he said to them, “Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.”
[SUP]26 [/SUP]A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” [SUP]27 [/SUP]Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.”
[SUP]28 [/SUP]Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”
[SUP]29 [/SUP]Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

Did Thomas not only look at Him but actually touched Jesus who was pierced?

RachelBibleStudent · Mar 30, 2013

as far as i can figure out the 'fullness of the gentiles' has not yet happened and the jews are still under a general blindness...but i don't view this through the lens of dispensationalism or expectation of an earthly kingdom for israel...

zone · Mar 30, 2013

RachelBibleStudent said:

fullness is not a number or a time frame.

it means the fullness of the promise (the blessing of the gentiles brought into salvation):

zone said:

it MEANS UNTIL THE FULFILLING OF THE PROPHECIES AND PLAN AND PURPOSE OF GOD TO OPEN SALVATION TO GENTILES WAS MADE KNOWN, HIS ENTIRE PLAN OF SALVATION COMPLETE.

pléróma: fullness, a filling up
Original Word: πλήρωμα, ατος, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: pléróma
Phonetic Spelling: (play'-ro-mah)
Short Definition: fullness, fulfillment, completion
Definition: (a) a fill, fullness; full complement; supply, patch, supplement, (b) fullness, filling, fulfillment, completion.

Cognate: 4138 plḗrōma – "sum total, fulness, even (super) abundance" (BAGD). See 4130 (plēthō).

the fullness of the mystery of the gentiles coming in to fill up (fatness - full blessing), the Plan of God, complete the Plan of God - to save both jew and gentile.

as in here:

Acts 10
Peter’s Vision
9The next day, as they were on their journey and approaching the city, Peter went up on the housetop about the sixth hourb to pray. 10And he became hungry and wanted something to eat, but while they were preparing it, he fell into a trance 11and saw the heavens opened and something like a great sheet descending, being let down by its four corners upon the earth. 12In it were all kinds of animals and reptiles and birds of the air. 13And there came a voice to him: “Rise, Peter; kill and eat.” 14But Peter said, “By no means, Lord; for I have never eaten anything that is common or unclean.” 15And the voice came to him again a second time, “What God has made clean, do not call common.” 16This happened three times, and the thing was taken up at once to heaven.

17Now while Peter was inwardly perplexed as to what the vision that he had seen might mean, behold, the men who were sent by Cornelius, having made inquiry for Simon’s house, stood at the gate 18and called out to ask whether Simon who was called Peter was lodging there. 19And while Peter was pondering the vision, the Spirit said to him, “Behold, three men are looking for you. 20Rise and go down and accompany them without hesitation, for I have sent them.” 21And Peter went down to the men and said, “I am the one you are looking for. What is the reason for your coming?” 22And they said, “Cornelius, a centurion, an upright and God-fearing man, who is well spoken of by the whole Jewish nation, was directed by a holy angel to send for you to come to his house and to hear what you have to say.” 23So he invited them in to be his guests.

The next day he rose and went away with them, and some of the brothers from Joppa accompanied him. 24And on the following day they entered Caesarea. Cornelius was expecting them and had called together his relatives and close friends. 25When Peter entered, Cornelius met him and fell down at his feet and worshiped him. 26But Peter lifted him up, saying, “Stand up; I too am a man.” 27And as he talked with him, he went in and found many persons gathered. 28And he said to them, “You yourselves know how unlawful it is for a Jew to associate with or to visit anyone of another nation, but God has shown me that I should not call any person common or unclean. 29So when I was sent for, I came without objection. I ask then why you sent for me.”

30And Cornelius said, “Four days ago, about this hour, I was praying in my house at the ninth hour,c and behold, a man stood before me in bright clothing 31and said, ‘Cornelius, your prayer has been heard and your alms have been remembered before God. 32Send therefore to Joppa and ask for Simon who is called Peter. He is lodging in the house of Simon, a tanner, by the sea.’ 33So I sent for you at once, and you have been kind enough to come. Now therefore we are all here in the presence of God to hear all that you have been commanded by the Lord.”

Gentiles Hear the Good News
34So Peter opened his mouth and said: “Truly I understand that God shows no partiality, 35but in every nation anyone who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him. 36As for the word that he sent to Israel, preaching good news of peace through Jesus Christ (he is Lord of all), 37you yourselves know what happened throughout all Judea, beginning from Galilee after the baptism that John proclaimed: 38how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power. He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with him. 39And we are witnesses of all that he did both in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They put him to death by hanging him on a tree, 40but God raised him on the third day and made him to appear, 41not to all the people but to us who had been chosen by God as witnesses, who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead. 42And he commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one appointed by God to be judge of the living and the dead. 43To him all the prophets bear witness that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”

The Holy Spirit Falls on the Gentiles
44While Peter was still saying these things, the Holy Spirit fell on all who heard the word. 45And the believers from among the circumcised who had come with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit was poured out even on the Gentiles. 46For they were hearing them speaking in tongues and extolling God. Then Peter declared, 47“Can anyone withhold water for baptizing these people, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” 48And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to remain for some days.

and here:

Acts 9
10Now there was a disciple at Damascus named Ananias. The Lord said to him in a vision, “Ananias.” And he said, “Here I am, Lord.” 11And the Lord said to him, “Rise and go to the street called Straight, and at the house of Judas look for a man of Tarsus named Saul, for behold, he is praying, 12and he has seen in a vision a man named Ananias come in and lay his hands on him so that he might regain his sight.” 13But Ananias answered, “Lord, I have heard from many about this man, how much evil he has done to your saints at Jerusalem. 14And here he has authority from the chief priests to bind all who call on your name.” 15But the Lord said to him, “Go, for he is a chosen instrument of mine to carry my name before the Gentiles and kings and the children of Israel. 16For I will show him how much he must suffer for the sake of my name.” 17So Ananias departed and entered the house. And laying his hands on him he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus who appeared to you on the road by which you came has sent me so that you may regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.” 18And immediately something like scales fell from his eyes, and he regained his sight. Then he rose and was baptized; 19and taking food, he was strengthened.

FULLNESS OF THE GENTILES GRACIOUSLY INVITED INTO THE CHURCH.
the making FULL THE PLAN TO HAVE EVERY KINDRED TONGUE AND NATION.
THE FULFILLING OF THE THE PROMISE.
that Gospel preached even to Abraham!

that's all it means.

GRA · Mar 30, 2013

Katy-follower said:

Zechariah 12:10 is describing an occurance which will happen AT the Second Coming of Christ.

AT that time (when He comes) - they shall see Him - whom they pierced - and, they shall mourn...

And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. ~ Zechariah 12:10

GRA · Mar 30, 2013

zone:

[SUP]36[/SUP] For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken. [SUP]37[/SUP] And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced. ~ John 19:36-37

Verse 37 indicates that He was pierced so that scripture would be fulfilled. It does not say that the fulfillment was to occur at the time that He was pierced. The fulfillment actually happens later. It could not happen later, however, if He was not pierced earlier - the fulfillment rests in the looking - not the piercing...

Understand?

SarahM777 · Mar 30, 2013

GRA said:

UMM didn't Mary see Him first,then the two disciples on the road to Emmaus,then the ten,then the following week Thomas,and during the forty days show Himself to be alive to many others and also 500 eyewitnesses (Men not counting women and children) at one time? All of which occurred AFTER He was raised from the dead.

GRA · Mar 30, 2013

SarahM777 said:

"UMM - you are taking Zechariah 12:10 completely out of context..."

The Fullness of the Gentiles

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