The golden calf...Shavuot/Pentecost

just-me · Apr 19, 2014

The way I read it is that Moses told the people that God said He had talked to them from heaven in Exodus 20:22.
22 And the LORD said unto Moses, Thus thou shalt say unto the children of Israel, Ye have seen that I have talked with you from heaven.

Then the only other thing God told Moses to tell the people was to not make gods of silver and gold. I don't see anywhere where Moses recited what we know as the 10 commandments.

LOL I can see the length of time in the 40 days also.

Does it appear to you that the tables of stone contained the format of temple worship instead of what we know as the "Ten Commandments," and that's when the golden calf was made? God knows what will happen before it happens, and by His grace He gives forewarning. I refer back to Exodus 20:23
23 Ye shall not make with me gods of silver, neither shall ye make unto you gods of gold.

Least · Apr 19, 2014

just-me said:

Yes, that's what I said, the ten commandments in Ch. 20 were given verbally. There is no mention of stones there.

It was during the time that Moses was in the Mount for 40 days and 40 nights (after ten commandments were spoken to the people) that he received the stones with the commandments. Because it was during that time that calf was made, and when Moses came down from the mountain, out anger of what he saw, he threw them to the ground and broke them. (Chapter 32)

We are agree there.

Least · Apr 19, 2014

just-me said:

Exodus 20:2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
Exodus 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
Exodus 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
Exodus 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
Exodus 20:6 And showing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
Exodus 20:7 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
Exodus 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Exodus 20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
Exodus 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
Exodus 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
Exodus 20:12 Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.
Exodus 20:13 Thou shalt not kill.
Exodus 20:14 Thou shalt not commit adultery.
Exodus 20:15 Thou shalt not steal.
Exodus 20:16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
Exodus 20:17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.
Exodus 20:18 And all the people saw the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the noise of the trumpet, and the mountain smoking: and when the people saw it, they removed, and stood afar off.
Exodus 20:20 And Moses said unto the people, Fear not: for God is come to prove you, and that his fear may be before your faces, that ye sin not.
Exodus 20:21 And the people stood afar off, and Moses drew near unto the thick darkness where God was.
Exodus 20:22 And the LORD said unto Moses, Thus thou shalt say unto the children of Israel, Ye have seen that I have talked with you from heaven.
Exodus 20:23 Ye shall not make with me gods of silver, neither shall ye make unto you gods of gold.
Exodus 20:24 An altar of earth thou shalt make unto me, and shalt sacrifice thereon thy burnt offerings, and thy peace offerings, thy sheep, and thine oxen: in all places where I record my name I will come unto thee, and I will bless thee.
Exodus 20:25 And if thou wilt make me an altar of stone, thou shalt not build it of hewn stone: for if thou lift up thy tool upon it, thou hast polluted it.
Exodus 20:26 Neither shalt thou go up by steps unto mine altar, that thy nakedness be not discovered thereon.

If you go back to the previous chapter 19...the very last verse.

Exodus 19:25 So Moses went down unto the people, and spake unto them.

Then chapter 20 right from the get-go he speaks what God told him to speak.

There's no more mention of the ten, until Duet 5

just-me · Apr 19, 2014

Least said:

Just to make it clear, I still see it different in that God thundered Exodus 20:2-17 to the children of Israel, not Moses.

Then Israel said to not let God speak to them any more and Exodus 21 thru 23 is what Mose spoke to them, and then wrote them down including Exodus 20:2-17 just bfore he setteled down for the evening.

Anyway, that's what I see. They were written, and spoken all before the 40 days and 40 nights. I don't think Moses needed to be redundant, for Aaron probably had what Moses wrote earlier in his possession during the 40 days and nights that Moses was gone.

just-me · Apr 19, 2014

Least said:

But God told Moses that He had spoken to Israel from heaven. Exodus 20:22b "Ye have seen that I have talked with you from heaven." I don't believe Moses had to re-state what God had said. I think the people understood, but then again, maybe not for Exodus 20:4, and verse 23 are alike, for the most part.

You follow what I see thee? We are real close, and agree on most everything concerning the chronology. I like that.

Least · Apr 19, 2014

just-me said:

I think that both chapters run together.

In chapter 19, Exodus 19:9 And the LORD said unto Moses, Lo, I come unto thee in a thick cloud, that the people may hear when I speak with thee, and believe thee for ever. And Moses told the words of the people unto the LORD.
Exodus 19:10 And the LORD said unto Moses, Go unto the people, and sanctify them to day and to morrow, and let them wash their clothes,
Exodus 19:11 And be ready against the third day: for the third day the LORD will come down in the sight of all the people upon mount Sinai.

Then God gives more instruction to Moses about setting bounds for the people.

Exodus 19:16 And it came to pass on the third day in the morning, that there were thunders and lightnings, and a thick cloud upon the mount, and the voice of the trumpet exceeding loud; so that all the people that was in the camp trembled.
Exodus 19:17 And Moses brought forth the people out of the camp to meet with God; and they stood at the nether part of the mount.

Exodus 20:18 And all the people saw the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the noise of the trumpet, and the mountain smoking: and when the people saw it, they removed, and stood afar off.
Exodus 20:19 And they said unto Moses, Speak thou with us, and we will hear: but let not God speak with us, lest we die.

Yes, I agree with you here. That's why they asked Moses to speak to God for them. Ok, I got it.

just-me · Apr 19, 2014

The people didn't like it when God spoke directly to them. Neither would I with all the chaos.
Exodus 20:19
And they said unto Moses, Speak thou with us, and we will hear : but let not God speak with us, lest we die .

Anyway, we are getting off a litle. We do agree that teh goldne claf was made during the 40 days and nights that Moses ws on the mountain, after the "Ten Commandments" were given and written down by moses. So would you agree that the "Ten Commandments" are not written on stone, and that there was something else that what much more profound?

(smiles)

just-me · Apr 19, 2014

OK. One more question. LOL What do you think was really written on stone? That has been my search for about a month. Really, I'm not kidding.

Remember Pentecost Shavuot is the end of the feast of weeks, containing firstfruits, and the beginning of the giving of the tables of stone is the same day.

Least · Apr 19, 2014

just-me said:

Since there is no mention of the ten after Exodus 20, during the forty days and nights, and the next several chapters go into all of the instructions, I have to agree. Something more profound was happening. (No other mention of the ten together until Duet 5)

Almost all of the instructions that were given during that long period would foreshadow what was to come. The temple and everything about it, the Ark the alter....natural pictures of what was to come, and patterns for us.

Acts 7:38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:
Acts 7:39 To whom our fathers would not obey, but thrust him from them, and in their hearts turned back again into Egypt,
Acts 7:40 Saying unto Aaron, Make us gods to go before us: for as for this Moses, which brought us out of the land of Egypt, we wot not what is become of him.

In Acts, Peter even goes into the things that we are discussing! Very cool.

Romans 3:1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
Romans 3:2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

Goes back to the Oracles...from the inner chamber, the "Holy of Holies."

Hebrews 8:5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.

That's so awesome.

peacefulbeliever · Apr 19, 2014

RedTent said:

What they did in making the molten calf was idolatry. This is what they said after making the molten calf - "These be thy gods, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt."

just-me · Apr 19, 2014

Least said:

Since there is no mention of the ten after Exodus 20, during the forty days and nights, and the next several chapters go into all of the instructions, I have to agree. Something more profound was happening. (No other mention of the ten together until Duet 5)

Almost all of the instructions that were given during that long period would foreshadow what was to come. The temple and everything about it, the Ark the alter....natural pictures of what was to come, and patterns for us.

Acts 7:38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:
Acts 7:39 To whom our fathers would not obey, but thrust him from them, and in their hearts turned back again into Egypt,
Acts 7:40 Saying unto Aaron, Make us gods to go before us: for as for this Moses, which brought us out of the land of Egypt, we wot not what is become of him.

In Acts, Peter even goes into the things that we are discussing! Very cool.

Romans 3:1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
Romans 3:2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

Goes back to the Oracles...from the inner chamber, the "Holy of Holies."

Hebrews 8:5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.

That's so awesome.

It sure is. As I was studying the way the "Ten Commandments" were originally written in Hebrew, meaning the "Top Ten Things," the word "Oracles" popped up. There is more. I sure of that! I have yet to search out the 4 missing letters in translation. I'll get it if the Good Lord allows. It will change my perspective in many things, and I'm sure enable a more profound meaning in what Paul, and all the New Testament writers wrote. WOW!!

Least · Apr 19, 2014

just-me said:

I'm so looking forward to hearing what you find!

God bless you and lead you in this search!!!

peacefulbeliever · Apr 19, 2014

just-me said:

It seems to me that they made the molten calf before Moses went up the second time and it does seem that they were tired of his delay - And when the people saw that Moses delayed to come down out of the mount, the people gathered themselves together unto Aaron, and said unto him, Up, make us gods, which shall go before us; for as for this Moses, the man that brought us up out of the land of Egypt; we wot not what is become of him. Ex. 32:1
- isn't that just like man to run out of patience and then try to do things on his own?

And God saw what the people were doing and they had corrupted themselves - how quickly they had turned out of the way in which God commanded them. Ex. 32:8

31:18 And he gave Moses, when he had made an end of communig with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God. 15) And Moses turned, and went down from the mount and the two tables of the testimony were in his had: the tables were written on both their sides; on the one side and on the other were they written. . . . 19) And it came to pass, as soon as he came nigh unto the camp, that he saw the calf and the dancing: and Moses' anger waxed hot, and he cast the tables out of his hands, and brake them beneath the mount. . .

Ex. 34:1,4 And the LORD said unto Moses, Hew thee two tables of stone like unto the first: and I will write upon these tables the words that were in the first tables, which thou brakest. . . .And he [Moses} hewed two tables of stone like unto the first; and Moses rose up early in the morning and went up unto mount Sinai as the LORD had commanded him and took in his hand the two tables of stone.

just-me · Apr 19, 2014

The word "law" is another thing that should be seen differently. It means instructions, so whenever I read the scriptures again, I will use that word.
It would be like
the "instructions of liberty."

The "instructions are our schoolmaster."

Wherefore then serveth the instructions? It was added because of transgressions,

Is instruction then against the promises of God? God forbid : for if there had been an instruction given which could have given life , verily righteousness should have been by that instruction.

For the instruction of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the instruction of sin and death.

See, it make more sense because we see so much more clear that the works of self righteousness cannot bring salvation. There is no instruction for that because God knew it would never work. God never gave instructions for oneself to obtain salvation through themselves. Nevertheless, the instructions are very helpful to the believer.

2 Timothy 3:16
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

This is where I think the 4 missing letters are at, along with the other 6 to equal 10 letters of the top ten things. It all points toward Christ Jesus

KohenMatt · Apr 19, 2014

Kerry said:

just-me said:

Exactly. There hearts were far from Him, and everything they did was out of ritual obligation. God doesn't care about the offering unless the heart is willing.

Kerry · Apr 19, 2014

Nor did they have faith in what they represented and that is the cross.

just-me · Apr 19, 2014

peacefulbeliever said:

It seems to me that they made the molten calf before Moses went up the second time and it does seem that they were tired of his delay - [/QUOTE]

You must mean the second time after Moses broke the first set of stones, right?
The first time was in Exodus 32:7-8 after the first set of stones were given to Moses.
7 And the LORD said unto Moses, Go , get thee down ; for thy people, which thou broughtest out of the land of Egypt, have corrupted themselves:
8 They have turned aside quickly out of the way which I commanded them: they have made them a molten calf, and have worshipped it, and have sacrificed thereunto, and said , These be thy gods, O Israel, which have brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.

The way I read it is that Moses hadn't seen the golden calf yet until exodus 32:19
19 And it came to pass, as soon as he came nigh unto the camp, that he saw the calf, and the dancing: and Moses' anger waxed hot , and he cast the tables out of his hands, and brake them beneath the mount.

just-me · Apr 20, 2014

Exodus 34:28 And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten words.

Deuteronomy 4:13 And He declared unto you His covenant, which He commanded you to perform, even the ten words; and He wrote them upon two tables of stone.

Deuteronomy 10:4 And He wrote on the tables according to the first writing, the ten words, which the LORD spoke unto you in the mount out of the midst of the fire in the day of the assembly; and the LORD gave them unto me.
עֲשֶׂר דְּבָר= “ten commandments”
עֲשֶׂרֶת הַדְּבָרִים = “Top ten words/things”, concerning declarations, and/or statements
16 ע = (Ayin/Ghah-Eye) watch, know, shade, love
21 שֶׂ =(Shin/Sin-Two front teeth) sharp, press, and eat, exceeding sinfulness of sin. The intake of God's creation, and all God has proclaimed, adhering to righteousness through oneself, or by works.
20רֶ = (Resh-Head of man) the beginning of enlightenment to mankind, redemption.
עֲשֶׂרֶ 6235,6237,6238 =ten or tenth accumulation
6235 `eser eh'ser masculine of term aasarah {as-aw-raw'}; from 6237; ten (as an accumulation to the extent of the digits):--ten,
6237 `asar aw-sar' a primitive root (ident. with 6238); to accumulate; but used only as denominative from 6235; to tithe, i.e. to take or give a tenth:--X surely, give (take) the tenth, (have, take) tithe(-ing, -s), X truly.
6238 `ashar aw-shar' a primitive root; properly, to accumulate; chiefly (specifically) to grow (causatively, make) rich:--be(-come, en-, make, make self, wax) rich, make (1Kings 22:48 marg). See 6240.

missing from "ten"
ת 22= (Tav/Taw-Cross sticks) mark, sign, signal, monument, light. It is clear that “ten” without the cross sticks (Calvary) is only the works of ten without the shining light. By adding this letter to ten makes it the “Top ten” only through Christ Jesus.

עֲשֶׂר דְּבָר = “ten commandments”
4 דְּ = (Dalet/Dal-Door) entrance, creation, the world, creative works
2 בָ = (Beyt/Bet-Tent floor plan) household, family, union, division, and witnessing
20 רֶ = (Resh-Head of man) the beginning of enlightenment to mankind, redemption.
1687,1696,1697, 1698,1699 דְּבָרִ commandments
1687 dbiyr deb-eer' or (shortened) dbir {deb-eer'}; from 1696 (apparently in the sense of oracle); the shrine or innermost part of the sanctuary:--oracle.
1696 dabar daw-bar' a primitive root; perhaps properly, to arrange; but used figuratively (of words), to speak; rarely (in a destructive sense) to subdue:--answer, appoint, bid, command, commune, declare, destroy, give, name, promise, pronounce, rehearse, say, speak, be spokesman, subdue, talk, teach, tell, think, use (entreaties), utter, X well, X work.
1697 dabar daw-baw' from 1696; a word; by implication, a matter (as spoken of) or thing; adverbially, a cause:--act, advice, affair, answer, X any such (thing), because of, book, business, care, case, cause, certain rate, + chronicles, commandment, X commune(-ication), + concern(-ing), + confer, counsel, + dearth, decree, deed, X disease, due, duty, effect, + eloquent, errand, (evil favoured-)ness, + glory, + harm, hurt, + iniquity, + judgment, language, + lying, manner, matter, message, (no) thing, oracle, X ought, X parts, + pertaining, + please, portion, + power, promise, provision, purpose, question, rate, reason, report, request, X (as hast) said, sake, saying, sentence, + sign, + so, some (uncleanness), somewhat to say, + song, speech, X spoken, talk, task, + that, X there done, thing (concerning), thought, + thus, tidings, what(-soever), + wherewith, which, word, work.
1698 deber deh'-ber from 1696 (in the sense of destroying); a pestilence:--murrain, pestilence, plague.
1699 dober do'-ber from 1696 (in its original sense); a pasture (from its arrangement of the flock):--fold, manner.
As we can see, the “commandments” are the righteous judgments of God given to the children of Israel in the Old Testament. It involves the sanctuary, the threat of condemnation because of disobedience, and adhering to the instructions by spoken words of arrangement, and taking care of the flock.

Missing from “commandments”
5 הַ = (Hey-Man with arms raised meaning to reach out to God with a sincere circumcised heart) look, reveal, breath, grace, God’s goodness, and Pentateuch.
Deuteronomy 4:29 But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.
Matthew 7:7Ask , and it shall be given you; seek , and ye shall find ; knock , and it shall be opened unto you

10 י = (Yud/Yad-Arm and closed hand meaning having something substantial, and handing it to another) work, throw, worship, testimony, law and responsibility.
1 Corinthians 1:4-6 I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ; That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge; Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:
1 Corinthians 11:25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped , saying , This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye , as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.

13 ם or מ= (Mem-Water- the shape of this letter ם indicates the final end, or fulfillment thereof) chaos, mighty, water, and blood, apostasy, depravity and rebellion.
John 19:34But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.
1 John 5:6-8 (CJB) He is the one who came by means of water and blood, Yeshua the Messiah - not with water only, but with the water and the blood. And the Spirit bears witness, because the Spirit is the truth. 7 There are three witnesses - 8 the Spirit, the water and the blood - and these three are in agreement.
Hebrews 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said , It is finished : and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

As we can see the “ten” begins with ע “love” and is only complete with ת "the cross, making it the “top ten.”

10 represents Testimony, law and responsibility

Then we see that “commandments” begin with דְּ "a door or entrance. We can only enter in by reaching out to Christ first הַ in order to receive what God has given יthough the completion of the sacrifice in Christ Jesus. ם or מ

Love is the fulfilling of he law, on which all the law hangs, and can only be sufficient by the adherence to the Ten Sayings, the Ten Statements, the Ten Declarations, the Ten Words or even the Ten Things.

Therefore, the tablets of stone contain all things mentioned, and are confirmed by this statement of completion made by Jesus Christ.
Matthew 5:17-20
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy , but to fulfil . 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass , one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled . 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

The Pharisees had the “ten commandments” containing 6 attributes that were not complete because Jesus was exempt from there religion. They didn't accept His testimony of "10".

Matthew 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment , mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done , and not to leave the other undone .

The tables of stone contain these things.

Least · Apr 20, 2014

Question:

The Ten Commandments would have contained all these parts? Were they deliberately removed?

just-me · Apr 20, 2014

Least said:

They are not removed, they are a substantially small part (yet important) of a grand plan. The "ten commandments," as we know them, is a man made phrase that developed during the 1200's AD, and replaced the "Top ten things" as I posted in the 4 letters that are missing in the original Hebrew writings.

What many people have a hard time understanding, is that all of God's words are in the grand scheme of all things. "Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God." The tables of stone would have summarized the plan of salvation, and the progression of events thereof. That's why we see descriptions of the priests, and the temple after Moses ascended up into the mountain for 40 days.

As I see it, these "ten words" involve all things in the plan of salvation. It is for sure a grand plan according to scripture, and surely involves more than we can comprehend at the moment. I would say that because Israel knew the Hebrew language that they would have understood deeper than we would. But then a person must look at the feast of tabernacles to understand how they would know these "ten words." As you know, the 7th month is for convocation.

Trumpets started to sound “when the seventh month was come”, as we continue reading in Ezra 3:1-3,“and the children of Israel were in the cities, the people gathered themselves together as one man to Jerusalem.” And the priests offered sacrifices “as it is written in the law of Moses the man of God.” There are also highlights in Nehemiah 8:2-17 that are worth mentioning so we can actually connect with the devotion of the people during this time. “Ezra the priest brought the law before the congregation both of men and women, and all that could hear with understanding, upon the first day of the seventh month, and the ears of all the people were attentive unto the book of the law. Jeshua, Bani, Sherebiah, Jamin, Akkub, Shabbethai, Hodijah, Maaseiah, Kelita, Azariah, Jozabad, Hanan, Pelaiah, and the Levites, caused the people to understand the law: and the people stood in their place. So they read the book in the law of God distinctly and caused them to understand the reading. And on the second day were gathered together the chief of the fathers of all the people, the priests, and the Levites, unto Ezra the scribe, even to understand the words of the law. And they found written in the law which the LORD had commanded by Moses, that the children of Israel should dwell in booths in the feast of the seventh month:” so we read in Ezra 3:4-6 that “they kept also the feast of tabernacles, as the duty of every day required; And afterward offered the continual burnt offering, both of the new moons, and of all the set feasts of the LORD that were consecrated, from the first day of the seventh month began they to offer burnt offerings unto the LORD. But the foundation of the temple of the LORD was not yet laid.” And on the eighth day, which would have been the twenty-second of the month, we read in Nehemiah 8:18 “day by day, from the first day unto the last day, he (Ezra) read in the book of the law of God. And they kept the feast seven days; and on the eighth day was a solemn assembly, according unto the manner.”

This is the reason I started the thread about tabernacles, because it is what the church should be, and understand. I am probably very unpopular at the moment. LOL

The golden calf...Shavuot/Pentecost

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