The Gross Error of Limited Atonement

[notuptome]

He gave His Spirit life for many in jeopardy of His own Spirit... giving rise and understanding to the parable "drink blood".

If He gave His Spirit life for all, all would be saved.(universalism)anything goes just believe.

Incorrect conclusion produced by an incorrect view of grace. God has concluded all in unbelief that He might have mercy on all.

Lu 13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Grandpa]

Originally Posted by Grandpa

Because, effectively, Christ died only for the elect. Christs Atonement is only for those who are Saved.

The Bible says that the Lamb of God took away the sin of the world, and that Jesus Christ is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world. That is where you must start. So do you believe this or do you not? Jf you believe it, then it follows that Christ's atonement -- His atoning sacrifice where He took the sins of the world upon Himself -- cannot possibly be limited to the elect.

The Atonement HAS to be limited to the elect, otherwise there would be no condemnation by which ANYONE could be judged. ALL their sin would already have been atoned for.

That is NOT what the Bible says at all. I already posted this, but here it is again:

For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Condemned of what? How? ALL their sin is already Atoned for. So by your own belief you make this scripture false. There is no condemnation even for unbelievers because their sin is atoned for.

If "the world might be saved" does it not mean that the sins of the world were atoned for? So "he that believeth not" is the one who fails to obey the Gospel, although God says that he could be saved if he repented and believed.

I am simply amazed that anyone would make such a statement. Just because Christ paid the penalty for our sins does NOT mean that everyone automatically gets saved. Do you notice this CONDITION which must be met: He that believeth on him is not condemned. So repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ are essential conditions for salvation. Otherwise there would be no need for Gospel preaching.

The fact is that is does apply to everyone, and all the supporting Scripture are in the OP. Please read them again, but more importantly BELIEVE them (since it is clear that you have not believed them). While the atonement applies to all humanity, as already pointed out, only those who obey the Gospel will be saved. Why are you unable to see this?

You are trying to make extra qualifications placed on men for Salvation. You are trying to separate all the things that must be done for Salvation and they can't be separated.

Not obeying the gospel is sin, is it not?

Not believing in Christ is sin, is it not?

Unrepenantance is sin, is it not?


If its already been atoned for how can it be punished? Answer; It can't be.

But if the Atonement is limited to the elect then unbelievers are condemned. If the Atonement is limited then unrepentance and not believing the gospel is punished. The bible becomes truth again if the Atonement is limited to the elect.

If the Atonement is not limited then the scriptures you have posted aren't even true. Kind of ironic since you hang your philosophy upon it.

 

[notuptome]

More nonsense. Ephesians 1:4 and 2 Thessalonians 2:13 refute your error as does the balance of Scripture.

You didn't elect yourself as you fallaciously assert. You continue to not only take Scripture out of context, but you also take out of context what others have stated as in your above quote of phil36. Frankly that is dishonest behavior.

Election remains the result of salvation not the cause of salvation. Correlation is not causation.

One does not elect oneself nor does one save oneself. God does not arbitrarily select one over another but is exceedingly graciously to all.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[preacher4truth]

Election remains the result of salvation not the cause of salvation. Correlation is not causation.

None have said it's the cause.

Next:

One does not elect oneself nor does one save oneself.

It is of note the irony and contradiction in your moniker, when in fact it IS up to you since you preach decisional regeneration many times on the forum. If you removed the"not" from your moniker it would then be accurate in description.

God does not arbitrarily select one over another

None have said the above, either. God elected according to his own purpose. All the choosing is on him and only on him, not man.

but is exceedingly graciously to all.

Scripture refutes your position, he shows mercy to whom he wills, not to all. You don't like that?

 

[notuptome]

None have said it's the cause.

Yet it is implied in every time election is incorrectly presented.

Next:
It is of note the irony and contradiction in your moniker, when in fact it IS up to you since you preach decisional regeneration many times on the forum. If you removed the"not" from your moniker it would then be accurate in description.

Opinion without any foundation. Not admissible.

None have said the above, either. God elected according to his own purpose. All the choosing is on him and only on him, not man.

God has chosen all who will believe and receive. Adam received the ability to choose in the garden.

Scripture refutes your position, he shows mercy to whom he wills, not to all. You don't like that?

God wills to show mercy to all including you.

Ro 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

You simply cannot enlarge your heart to comprehend that which the mind cannot reason out through human understanding.

A man does not one day realize that he is elect. Man comes under conviction of sin, righteousness and judgment and is confronted with a choice. John 16:8-10. It is not an aha moment but a God be merciful to me a sinner moment. Here is where he chooses to come to Christ or retreat back into the darkness of his own righteousness. John 3:18-21

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Snoozy]

i wasnt predestined to be a calvinist.

i asked some questions about it because i agreed with some of their teachings ive read but bible witnesses not everything is predestined by God.
many times God disagrees with what people do. when they dont do His will.

Luk 7:30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.

Jer 32:35 And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.

many more verses in the bible. if God says that above, i dont think He predestined it. if its an abomination to Him. would be a big contradiction.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

The Atonement HAS to be limited to the elect, otherwise there would be no condemnation by which ANYONE could be judged. ALL their sin would already have been atoned for.

Condemned of what? How? ALL their sin is already Atoned for. So by your own belief you make this scripture false. There is no condemnation even for unbelievers because their sin is atoned for.

You are trying to make extra qualifications placed on men for Salvation. You are trying to separate all the things that must be done for Salvation and they can't be separated.

Not obeying the gospel is sin, is it not?

Not believing in Christ is sin, is it not?

Unrepenantance is sin, is it not?


If its already been atoned for how can it be punished? Answer; It can't be.

But if the Atonement is limited to the elect then unbelievers are condemned. If the Atonement is limited then unrepentance and not believing the gospel is punished. The bible becomes truth again if the Atonement is limited to the elect.

If the Atonement is not limited then the scriptures you have posted aren't even true. Kind of ironic since you hang your philosophy upon it.

I do not know what you are going on about

did anyone say here say they are a universalist? I think some are, but they are not self identifying at the moment

as has been pointed out numerous times, salvation does not occur as a one way ticket to heaven

OF COURSE only those accept Jesus are saved. however, the Bible says WHOSOEVER meaning choose which God bascially states throughout the Bible

I truly fail to see how someone can interpret whosoever will as EVERYONE when 'will' is stated quite clearly

if YOU will, He will

not hard to understand

 

[7seasrekeyed]

One of these days a Calvinist is going to rewrite the bible. Why not? Every other organization is doing it to fit their belief system. Here's some examples to use:

For whosoever "of the elect" shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
For God so loved the world "of the elect"...
God's not willing that any "of the elect" perish, ...
I am the way, the truth and the life "for the elect"...
How Christ died for "the elects sins" according to the scriptures, was buried....

Everyone, feel free to change the bible and add some more...

mheh

they certainly do not read the way it is written now

 

[Grandpa]

I do not know what you are going on about

did anyone say here say they are a universalist? I think some are, but they are not self identifying at the moment

as has been pointed out numerous times, salvation does not occur as a one way ticket to heaven

OF COURSE only those accept Jesus are saved. however, the Bible says WHOSOEVER meaning choose which God bascially states throughout the Bible

I truly fail to see how someone can interpret whosoever will as EVERYONE when 'will' is stated quite clearly

if YOU will, He will

not hard to understand

No, its really easy.

A. Universalism

B. Limited Atonement


Choose one.

 

[notuptome]

No, its really easy.

A. Universalism

B. Limited Atonement


Choose one.

How about C. God saves the whosoever will receive Christ.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[heartofdavid]

He gave His Spirit life for many in jeopardy of His own Spirit... giving rise and understanding to the parable "drink blood".

If He gave His Spirit life for all, all would be saved.(universalism)anything goes just believe.

No he purchased man. He paid the price so that WHOSOEVER WILL COULD enter heaven.
THE PRICE.
The price was paid.
Nor all enter. But all CAN.
The "ball" is in our court

 

[Nehemiah6]

Thanks for post. The problem is that the verses you supplied do not repudiate limited atonement.

How can you possibly say that when there are many Scriptures I posted which specifically refer to "the world" of humanity. John 3:16 itself thoroughly repudiates limited atonement. If God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son to become a sacrifice for the sins of the world, no one should dare say that Christ died for only the elect. If you think about that carefully, it is blasphemous to contradict God (and those were the words of Christ in John chapter 3). So are you selectively ignoring Bible truth?

But I do know His sheep hear His voice

Of course Christ's sheep hear His voice. But before they can hear His voice, they must become His sheep! Sinners are not automatically the sheep of Christ until they obey the Gospel.

I love the verse from 1 Peter ch3 you posted

Unfortunately you used a translation which begins with a mistranslation. That is not "dear friends", but BELOVED, so that is a serious error.

Strong's Concordance

agapétos: beloved​

Original Word: ἀγαπητός, ή, όν
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: agapétos
Phonetic Spelling: (ag-ap-ay-tos')
Short Definition: loved, beloved
Definition: loved, beloved, with two special applications: the Beloved, a title of the Messiah (Christ), as beloved beyond all others by the God who sent Him; of Christians, as beloved by God, Christ, and one another.

So let's go back to the KJB and focus on the verse in question (v 9):
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

I wonder who Peter is speaking to hear regarding Salvation?? Doesn't seem to me to be a very strong case against Limited atonement. especially when you realize who Peter is referring to.

Peter is addressing believers, who are BELOVED of God. However when he speaks of "longsuffering to us-ward" the context makes it clear that that is not to be applied to those who are already saved (since they could never perish), but those who have not as yet come to repentance (and are in danger of Hell fire). So "us-ward" is a reference to humanity, not to those already saved. Therefore when Peter says that God wants all to come to repentance, it means the entire human race. And that is corroborated by Acts 17:30:
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent

If "all men everywhere" does not thoroughly refute and repudiate limited atonement, then nothing will. It does not say "all elect men everywhere" (as the Calvinists would love to see).

 

[7seasrekeyed]

No, its really easy.

A. Universalism

B. Limited Atonement


Choose one.

that sounds more like someone hit a wall with circular thinking

so if that is how you view it, do you view Jesus as universalist when He offered Himself for the sins of the world?

and by the way...stating NO...just sounds like you disagree and so there...

 

[Grandpa]

Originally Posted by Grandpa

No, its really easy.

A. Universalism

B. Limited Atonement


Choose one.

How about C. God saves the whosoever will receive Christ.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Do you think the 'whosoever will' is everyone or not everyone?

If you think it is everyone then you have chosen A.

If you think it is not everyone then you have chosen B.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

Are you referring to Ruth?

I am talking about the fact that you could convert to Judaism as someone was wondering why God did not offer salvation to the tribes surrounding Israel that God told them to annihilate

and then the question was posed...something along the lines of is that fair or something (sorry don't feel like looking it up but it's back a couple of pages)

this view of close ended salvation, you have no choice salvation, is easily seen as false right through the Bible

 

[Rokurac]

The moment you realize everyone believes in limited atonement unless they are universalists.

The simplest way I can explain it is this: The whosoever in john 3:16 means the believing ones. So whosoever believes, the ones who believe, are saved. What about the ones who dont believe? The atonement doesnt cover them. Therefore limited atonement. Simple. Unless you are a universalist, of course.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

oh man

it boggles the mind how folks can come up with universalism from 'whosoever will'

I guess they carry over the meaning of 'will' from Calvinism and apply it to 'whosoever will'

in that economy, it seems to mean 'whosoever will if you are predestined and have lost your will to decide

puzzling

how does everything become God's 'will' ? why bother to pray?

Calvinism would create anger against God IMO and maybe it does

 

[Nehemiah6]

The moment you realize everyone believes in limited atonement unless they are universalists.

The simplest way I can explain it is this: The whosoever in john 3:16 means the believing ones. So whosoever believes, the ones who believe, are saved. What about the ones who dont believe? The atonement doesnt cover them. Therefore limited atonement. Simple. Unless you are a universalist, of course.

This post is evidence that Calvinists have to twist and wrest the Scriptures in order to make them conform to their distorted theology.

Anyone who is prepared to be honest will see that "whosoever" means anyone and everyone, regardless of race, creed, color, or nationality -- any human being. Since all have sinned and come short of the glory of God, and since Christ died for the sins of the whole world, the offer of eternal life is to anyone and everyone -- "whosoever".

So along come the Calvinists and say "John 3:16 itself demolishes our Five Point Calvinism right there. So what should be do? Let's change the meaning of words in Scripture. "Whosoever" = believing ones and "world" = the elect. Shame on Christians who dare twist Bible truth.

 

[Rokurac]

This post is evidence that Calvinists have to twist and wrest the Scriptures in order to make them conform to their distorted theology.

Anyone who is prepared to be honest will see that "whosoever" means anyone and everyone, regardless of race, creed, color, or nationality -- any human being. Since all have sinned and come short of the glory of God, and since Christ died for the sins of the whole world, the offer of eternal life is to anyone and everyone -- "whosoever".

So along come the Calvinists and say "John 3:16 itself demolished our Five Point Calvinism right there. So what should be do? Let change the meaning of words in Scripture. "Whosoever" = believing ones and "world" = the elect. Shame on Christians who dare twist Bible truth.

LOL. I didnt twist anything, I said whosoever believes which is what the verse states, the only reason you highlighted that part of the message is to nitpick it apart.

Whosoever believes is saved, yes?

The one who does not believe is not saved, yes?

Conclusion: The one who does not believe, his sins are not atoned for, YES?

 

[Nehemiah6]

LOL. I didnt twist anything, I said whosoever believes which is what the verse states, the only reason you highlighted that part of the message is to nitpick it apart.

Whosoever believes is saved, yes?

You said "The whosoever in john 3:16 means the believing ones." = the elect (not stated but implied)

God says "whosoever" = anyone and everyone BEFORE they become believing ones (See Rev 22:17).

Do you see the difference? And the choice is not between either Universalism or Limited Atonement.

There is a third alternative which is -- Unlimited Atonement effective only for those who obey the Gospel.