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I can be expressive, sorry to offend. Typically in person we are all laughing, but some stuff gets lost in type.
Yes, neither I nor you, nor I believe anyone else here knows where "you are coming from" in what you say.
There is a reason I am so adamant about this subject, if you know anything what it means to be an Israelite delievered from every aspect of the law of Sin and Death, especially from that written in stone. The righteous words of the law no one refutes. But anyone who attempts to utilize those words for salvation, signs their own death warrant. I lived that way many years without knowing it, because I DIDN'T KNOW any better. I didn't know what it meant to have Jesus write the New Covenant Law in my Heart! Now I do! And there is not ONE THING of that Law of Sin and Death, especially that written in stone, to be a part of my life now in Christ Jesus my Messiah of Israel.
We who have Jesus, and were delivered from the Law, need no aspect of the law reminded back into our lives. I usually provide scriptures, and I can until the cows come home, but I'm just talking to you here...
I am an Israelite. I was delivered from the Law of Sin and Death. That is HOW I MYSELF recognize and speak of SALVATION. As far as I know, that is a "Christian" Salvation for all Christians, whether Jews or out of the nations.
My Salvation is incredible to me, for I was delivered from the LAW OF SIN AND DEATH. I lost every family member and was divorced for turning to the "filthy goyim Christian b*stard God" they'd say. They cast me out because I didn't keep their tradition. Because I accepted Jesus as Israel's Messiah.
Before that, I rejoiced in the law written in stone. Most of my family just are puppets following the rabbis. The law for me... Sure, it was great, it was from YHVH! No other nation of people could truly claim that. Truths were etched into stone. The priesthood was appointed of God down from Aaron etc etc. It is all fascinating... UNTIL... The bright Glorious Light of the Coming of the Lord into my life, transforming me from a wanton woman into His Virgin Bride bringing forth the Son of God in my belly. I can't help but show Him. He is the center of all things.
He was the one who wrote that old law.
He died so that it, in all it's glory, could die and be replaced with the Greater Glory Shining in the Face of Jesus the Gospel of Everlasting Life. The fulfillment of the Promise of the Father to Abraham of the Everlasting Marriage Covenant in His Blood.
Now a NEW LAW written NOT in tables of stone but right into my very heart gives me to not only KNOW Him personally, but to walk in His Righteousness. To know good and evil and have power unlimited in Christ to overcome all things and now be born above and filled with His Holy Self and Know to Never die...
...and then someone suggests that it is somehow beneficial to turn back to their own pick and choose versions of the law of sin and death to lead a more beneficial life?
sigh
Yes, neither I nor you, nor I believe anyone else here knows where "you are coming from" in what you say.
There is a reason I am so adamant about this subject, if you know anything what it means to be an Israelite delievered from every aspect of the law of Sin and Death, especially from that written in stone. The righteous words of the law no one refutes. But anyone who attempts to utilize those words for salvation, signs their own death warrant. I lived that way many years without knowing it, because I DIDN'T KNOW any better. I didn't know what it meant to have Jesus write the New Covenant Law in my Heart! Now I do! And there is not ONE THING of that Law of Sin and Death, especially that written in stone, to be a part of my life now in Christ Jesus my Messiah of Israel.
We who have Jesus, and were delivered from the Law, need no aspect of the law reminded back into our lives. I usually provide scriptures, and I can until the cows come home, but I'm just talking to you here...
I am an Israelite. I was delivered from the Law of Sin and Death. That is HOW I MYSELF recognize and speak of SALVATION. As far as I know, that is a "Christian" Salvation for all Christians, whether Jews or out of the nations.
My Salvation is incredible to me, for I was delivered from the LAW OF SIN AND DEATH. I lost every family member and was divorced for turning to the "filthy goyim Christian b*stard God" they'd say. They cast me out because I didn't keep their tradition. Because I accepted Jesus as Israel's Messiah.
Before that, I rejoiced in the law written in stone. Most of my family just are puppets following the rabbis. The law for me... Sure, it was great, it was from YHVH! No other nation of people could truly claim that. Truths were etched into stone. The priesthood was appointed of God down from Aaron etc etc. It is all fascinating... UNTIL... The bright Glorious Light of the Coming of the Lord into my life, transforming me from a wanton woman into His Virgin Bride bringing forth the Son of God in my belly. I can't help but show Him. He is the center of all things.
He was the one who wrote that old law.
He died so that it, in all it's glory, could die and be replaced with the Greater Glory Shining in the Face of Jesus the Gospel of Everlasting Life. The fulfillment of the Promise of the Father to Abraham of the Everlasting Marriage Covenant in His Blood.
Now a NEW LAW written NOT in tables of stone but right into my very heart gives me to not only KNOW Him personally, but to walk in His Righteousness. To know good and evil and have power unlimited in Christ to overcome all things and now be born above and filled with His Holy Self and Know to Never die...
...and then someone suggests that it is somehow beneficial to turn back to their own pick and choose versions of the law of sin and death to lead a more beneficial life?
sigh
I understand that much of the rest of what you say here is returning to the topic of salvation because you've tied eternal life to salvation here, so I'll avoid commenting on those portions again. But correlation doesn't imply causation. Just because two things are related doesn't mean one caused the other or that the two things are equal.
It's true that all those who receive eternal life are saved...but not all those who are saved will receive eternal life. Many have and will fail. There are proofs throughout scripture of this:
- I already gave the example about Israel being saved from death & Egypt never receiving their rest.
- Also the multitude of disciples, who were saved by the 1st (physical) bread Christ gave them as a free gift (i.e. salvation), later rejected the 2nd "living" bread (i.e. himself) offered to them by refusing to follow him (i.e. eternal life).
- Also the son of destruction, Judas, received everything the other 11 apostles received (including the Holy Spirit) but he let his greed open the door for satan to enter in...and he was lost. This was a fulfillment of scripture but he was still lost.
- Also there wouldn't be a warning in Hebrews 10:26 that one can trodden the blood of Christ underfoot, no longer having a sacrifice for sin for willful sins, if what we gain from Christ's gift wasn't able to be given up.
Small is the gate and narrow is the way that leads to life and *VERY FEW* people find it.
No. There is neither Jew or Gentile; but one body (Galatians 3:28). And there is only *one* way into eternal life (John 10:7-11), just one way; belief in Christ. Why would Christ give *another* way for eternal life to another group of people who are supposed to be *one with us* in him, especially when there's only *one* way to life; Him? The answer is he didn't, otherwise that would mean there's more than just one way to eternal life (which goes against Christ's WORDS).
Thus we have to define what it really means to believe in Christ.
Moses, Eldad and Medad each had the Holy Spirit (Numbers 11:27) and each of them still failed to enter in. Only Joshua and Caleb entered in through faith (proven by obedience).
So possessing the Holy Spirit doesn't guarantee obedience to God or eternal life (again Judas and Hebrew 10:26) because one must *yield* their will to the Spirit; a work/task on our part (i.e. Dying to self daily; i.e. being a living sacrifice).
No, John 3:16 is wholly sufficient for eternal life, but again we have to define what it means to believe in Christ.
- Christ is call THE WORD made flesh (John 1:14)
- Christ's WORDS = Christ's Holy SPIRIT (John 6:63)
- Christ's WORDS = Eternal LIFE (John 6:63)
- To believe in Christ is to believe in Christ's WORDS
- To not believe in Christ's WORDS is to not believe in Christ
- One who accepts Christ's WORDS receives Christ's Holy SPIRIT
- One who does not accept Christ WORDS does not have Christ's SPIRIT in them, no matter how much they claim they do.
- If we do not follow Christ's WORDS Christ is not our Lord, as a servant will follow their master's words.
- If we do not do what Christ SAYS we can not call Christ Lord (Luke 6:46)
- If we do not follow Christ's WORDS we do not accept Christ WORDS
- If we do not accept Christ's WORDS we do not believe in Christ
- If we do not believe in Christ we will not receive eternal life, nor have we been born again.
- Christ's WORDS wash us (John 15:3; 1 Cor 6:11)
- One who does not receive Christ's WORDS is not WASHED by Christ and is still dirty, no matter how many time they say they believe in Christ or claim the are righteous by faith in Christ. Christ words are everything. Christ's words are the only thing.
So to say one believes in Christ means nothing if one does not follow all of Christ WORDS. Christ SAID there are two things required for eternal life: To Obey the Commandments & To Follow Him (faith in him)...these are his WORDS. His words are then repeated to John in the book of revelation at rev 12:17 & rev 14:12...the last prophetic message literally given from Father God...through Christ the Son...to John the servant...to us who choose to believe it.
1) Keep God's commandments
2) Have faith in Christ
Again, not talking about salvation but eternal life.
Again, not talking about salvation but eternal life.
(obedience to) The law alone is not good enough to inherit eternal life.
But Obedience to The Law + Faith in Christ's Salvation = eternal life
...because Christ said so.
It's true that all those who receive eternal life are saved...but not all those who are saved will receive eternal life. Many have and will fail. There are proofs throughout scripture of this:
- I already gave the example about Israel being saved from death & Egypt never receiving their rest.
- Also the multitude of disciples, who were saved by the 1st (physical) bread Christ gave them as a free gift (i.e. salvation), later rejected the 2nd "living" bread (i.e. himself) offered to them by refusing to follow him (i.e. eternal life).
- Also the son of destruction, Judas, received everything the other 11 apostles received (including the Holy Spirit) but he let his greed open the door for satan to enter in...and he was lost. This was a fulfillment of scripture but he was still lost.
- Also there wouldn't be a warning in Hebrews 10:26 that one can trodden the blood of Christ underfoot, no longer having a sacrifice for sin for willful sins, if what we gain from Christ's gift wasn't able to be given up.
Small is the gate and narrow is the way that leads to life and *VERY FEW* people find it.
No. There is neither Jew or Gentile; but one body (Galatians 3:28). And there is only *one* way into eternal life (John 10:7-11), just one way; belief in Christ. Why would Christ give *another* way for eternal life to another group of people who are supposed to be *one with us* in him, especially when there's only *one* way to life; Him? The answer is he didn't, otherwise that would mean there's more than just one way to eternal life (which goes against Christ's WORDS).
Thus we have to define what it really means to believe in Christ.
Moses, Eldad and Medad each had the Holy Spirit (Numbers 11:27) and each of them still failed to enter in. Only Joshua and Caleb entered in through faith (proven by obedience).
So possessing the Holy Spirit doesn't guarantee obedience to God or eternal life (again Judas and Hebrew 10:26) because one must *yield* their will to the Spirit; a work/task on our part (i.e. Dying to self daily; i.e. being a living sacrifice).
No, John 3:16 is wholly sufficient for eternal life, but again we have to define what it means to believe in Christ.
- Christ is call THE WORD made flesh (John 1:14)
- Christ's WORDS = Christ's Holy SPIRIT (John 6:63)
- Christ's WORDS = Eternal LIFE (John 6:63)
- To believe in Christ is to believe in Christ's WORDS
- To not believe in Christ's WORDS is to not believe in Christ
- One who accepts Christ's WORDS receives Christ's Holy SPIRIT
- One who does not accept Christ WORDS does not have Christ's SPIRIT in them, no matter how much they claim they do.
- If we do not follow Christ's WORDS Christ is not our Lord, as a servant will follow their master's words.
- If we do not do what Christ SAYS we can not call Christ Lord (Luke 6:46)
- If we do not follow Christ's WORDS we do not accept Christ WORDS
- If we do not accept Christ's WORDS we do not believe in Christ
- If we do not believe in Christ we will not receive eternal life, nor have we been born again.
- Christ's WORDS wash us (John 15:3; 1 Cor 6:11)
- One who does not receive Christ's WORDS is not WASHED by Christ and is still dirty, no matter how many time they say they believe in Christ or claim the are righteous by faith in Christ. Christ words are everything. Christ's words are the only thing.
So to say one believes in Christ means nothing if one does not follow all of Christ WORDS. Christ SAID there are two things required for eternal life: To Obey the Commandments & To Follow Him (faith in him)...these are his WORDS. His words are then repeated to John in the book of revelation at rev 12:17 & rev 14:12...the last prophetic message literally given from Father God...through Christ the Son...to John the servant...to us who choose to believe it.
1) Keep God's commandments
2) Have faith in Christ
Again, not talking about salvation but eternal life.
Again, not talking about salvation but eternal life.
(obedience to) The law alone is not good enough to inherit eternal life.
But Obedience to The Law + Faith in Christ's Salvation = eternal life
...because Christ said so.
O
KohenMatt,
we admire you very much for your witness and humble manners.
your patience and sweet nature are very obvious by your many
posts in cc.
it is so refreshing to read and then feel the great love you possess
for your Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ.
just a share,
ROMANS 7:7.
What shall we say then? Is the LAW sin? Certainly NOT!
so, we establish that the LAW is NOT sin, on the contrary,
Paul concludes that the LAW is good, holy, just, and Spiritual.
if we follow the whole text and go to verse '21', we see that Paul
finds a LAW, that evil is present with him even though he wills to do good,
for he delights in the LAW of God according to the inward man. (EZ.36:26-27.)
vs.23. makes a very clear-cut distinction between the
(LAW of God written upon the heart - and the LAW of sin, dwelling in the fleshly members.)
(((this is summing-up the 'struggle' between the (2) LAWS.)))
'But I see another LAW warring against the LAW of my mind, and bringing me
into captivity to the LAW of sin which is in my members.'
ROMANS 8:2. Sums up in saying,
'For the LAW of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the LAW of sin and death'.
(there are clearly (2) different LAWS -
1. The LAW of Righteousness.
2. The LAW of Sin and Death.
we admire you very much for your witness and humble manners.
your patience and sweet nature are very obvious by your many
posts in cc.
it is so refreshing to read and then feel the great love you possess
for your Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ.
just a share,
ROMANS 7:7.
What shall we say then? Is the LAW sin? Certainly NOT!
so, we establish that the LAW is NOT sin, on the contrary,
Paul concludes that the LAW is good, holy, just, and Spiritual.
if we follow the whole text and go to verse '21', we see that Paul
finds a LAW, that evil is present with him even though he wills to do good,
for he delights in the LAW of God according to the inward man. (EZ.36:26-27.)
vs.23. makes a very clear-cut distinction between the
(LAW of God written upon the heart - and the LAW of sin, dwelling in the fleshly members.)
(((this is summing-up the 'struggle' between the (2) LAWS.)))
'But I see another LAW warring against the LAW of my mind, and bringing me
into captivity to the LAW of sin which is in my members.'
ROMANS 8:2. Sums up in saying,
'For the LAW of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the LAW of sin and death'.
(there are clearly (2) different LAWS -
1. The LAW of Righteousness.
2. The LAW of Sin and Death.
Again, the examples that you are using are addressed to a group of people who were NOT born again of holy Spirit for that was not available until Jesus Christ ascension. [John 7:38,39] That which is born of the flesh is flesh. That is being born of your natural parents. Once you are a child in a family - you belong to that family - your behavior may remove you from fellowship [relationship] with that family but you are still a part of that family - the parent's "seed" is within you, being corruptible [perishable] seed. That which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Once you are born of the Spirit - you belong to the family of God, the household of God - your behavior may remove you from fellowship [relationship] with the family but that "seed" born within you remains - it is incorruptible [imperishable]. Nothing can remove that "seed" rather corruptible or incorruptible. A believer is "sealed" with the holy Spirit until the day of redemption.
Hebrew 10:26 - Yes it is a fearful thing to fall into the hand of the living God. God warns us to take life seriously and to take obedience seriously - I do not deny that. There will be an accounting for sin for which one has not repented. I do not advocate living in sin after being born again but it does happen. Everyone will stand before the judgment seat of Christ - to be judged for the things done in their body - those actions that are hay, wood, and stubble will burn and result in loss - those actions that are gold, silver, precious stones will not burn and result in reward - but the person himself will be saved.
Neither Jew nor Gentile in the body of Christ - For by one Spirit we are all baptized into one body - those in the body of Christ are those who have been born again of God's Spirit. [God placed his Spirit UPON certain OT believers and He would remove that Spirit] Study the word "BORN".
What does it mean to really believe in Christ?
pisteuo - to think to be true, to be persuaded of, to credit, place confidence in; of the thing believed [to credit, have confidence]; in a moral or religious reference - used in the NT of the conviction and trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law of soul; to trust in Jesus or God as able to aid either in obtaining or in doing something: saving faith; mere acknowledgment of some fact or event: intellectual faith; to entrust a thing to one, i.e. his fidelity; to be intrusted with a thing.
Again, study the word "born" - we are BORN again of the Spirit - we are SEALED with that Spirit until the day of redemption.
John 7:38,39 - says that the holy Spirit had not been given as Christ had not yet ascended?
Numbers 11:17 And I will come down and talk with thee there: and I will take of the spirit which is upon thee, and put it UPON them. (25) And the LORD came down in a cloud, and sake unto him, and took of the spirit that was upon him, and gave it unto the seventy elders: and it came to pass that when the spirit rested upon them, they prophesied and did not cease.
By not recognizing the different administrations in and throughout the Bible is what sets up contradictions. You say the OT believers were the same as the church and had spirit within BUT John says nope not until Christ ascended could one be born again of the spirit - i.e. Pentecost.
For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son that whosoever believeth [trust, have confidence in, be persuaded] in him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16 Nothing added; nothing taken away.
2 Timothy 1:12
. . . . . nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.
Romans 8:38;39 For I am persuaded that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, no depth, nor any other creature shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
God bless.
Hebrew 10:26 - Yes it is a fearful thing to fall into the hand of the living God. God warns us to take life seriously and to take obedience seriously - I do not deny that. There will be an accounting for sin for which one has not repented. I do not advocate living in sin after being born again but it does happen. Everyone will stand before the judgment seat of Christ - to be judged for the things done in their body - those actions that are hay, wood, and stubble will burn and result in loss - those actions that are gold, silver, precious stones will not burn and result in reward - but the person himself will be saved.
Neither Jew nor Gentile in the body of Christ - For by one Spirit we are all baptized into one body - those in the body of Christ are those who have been born again of God's Spirit. [God placed his Spirit UPON certain OT believers and He would remove that Spirit] Study the word "BORN".
What does it mean to really believe in Christ?
pisteuo - to think to be true, to be persuaded of, to credit, place confidence in; of the thing believed [to credit, have confidence]; in a moral or religious reference - used in the NT of the conviction and trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law of soul; to trust in Jesus or God as able to aid either in obtaining or in doing something: saving faith; mere acknowledgment of some fact or event: intellectual faith; to entrust a thing to one, i.e. his fidelity; to be intrusted with a thing.
Again, study the word "born" - we are BORN again of the Spirit - we are SEALED with that Spirit until the day of redemption.
John 7:38,39 - says that the holy Spirit had not been given as Christ had not yet ascended?
Numbers 11:17 And I will come down and talk with thee there: and I will take of the spirit which is upon thee, and put it UPON them. (25) And the LORD came down in a cloud, and sake unto him, and took of the spirit that was upon him, and gave it unto the seventy elders: and it came to pass that when the spirit rested upon them, they prophesied and did not cease.
By not recognizing the different administrations in and throughout the Bible is what sets up contradictions. You say the OT believers were the same as the church and had spirit within BUT John says nope not until Christ ascended could one be born again of the spirit - i.e. Pentecost.
For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son that whosoever believeth [trust, have confidence in, be persuaded] in him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16 Nothing added; nothing taken away.
2 Timothy 1:12
. . . . . nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.
Romans 8:38;39 For I am persuaded that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, no depth, nor any other creature shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
God bless.
H
There is a lot of deep muddy water in here. The confusion is sickening. But, I would say, be patient, and Let us try to make the Bible shine truth into our hearts. To Bride, sorry to say you are confusing "the law of sin and death" with the holy ,just righteous LAW of God, which was written in stone to show the eternal source and solid character of it, given by God for our good and eternal welfare, salvation. If one will not accept the moral laws of God they are NOT saved. God does not save lawless sinners. Jesus showed this very clearly. Read John 3:20-21 "For everyone practicing evil hates the light (Jesus)and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. But he who does the truth comes to the light, (Jesus) that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God." ie. done because we have been "born of God", only holy persons are "born of the Spirit". The "law of sin and death" in Rom.8:2 is the sinful nature within us, which the Holy Spirit delivers us from, at the new birth; it is not the moral, holy, law of God, the 10 commandments, which the Spirit writes upon our hearts at the time of our salvation. PLEASE correct your thinking. Love Hoffco
H
To Yahshua, It is very clear to me why you left the thread, "The letter to the Romans"; You will not accept the eternal plan of God for our salvation, which Paul teaches very clearly in CHs. 8:29-30 and chs. 9 and 11. This is a cardinal truth of the WORD of GOD and you reject it. So, you, wrongly, teach that one can be saved and then lost this salvation and not get eternal life. Your error is very clear, you need to accept God Whole teaching. God has in LOVE chosen a few to save, the 'elect" and has appointed the rest of mankind to damnation. This you refuse to accept. I do appreciate your teaching on holiness in salvation, This is a truth that many ,like peacefulbeliever, refuse to accept. They have accepted the error of a godless salvation of "faith only" which God hates, and they are sending many deceived souls to Hell. Love Hoffco, Pastor Doug
[SUP]What you refuse to accept that it is in that new creation that God has made you holy, set apart and it is because Jesus Christ has reconciled you through his death and presents you holy, unblameable and unreproveable - in man's sight? NO, in his sight.
21 [/SUP]And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
[SUP]22 [/SUP]In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
[SUP]23 [/SUP]If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
Stand fast . . . Stand fast in our trust and confidence in the work of Jesus Christ accomplished through his death.
21 [/SUP]And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
[SUP]22 [/SUP]In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
[SUP]23 [/SUP]If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
Stand fast . . . Stand fast in our trust and confidence in the work of Jesus Christ accomplished through his death.
H
To peacefulbeliever, your error is: you don't know what "MADE" means. It is a word that describes how a carpenter makes a piece of furniture. It has nothing to do with how a Judge acquits a murderer, to declare not guilty, BUT, the Judge has no power to"MAKE the murderer into a Holy person. GOD not only acquirs us from guilt, He also MAKES us inwardly holy, by placeing a NEW HEART in side us. thus MAKING, constituting us a holy person, a saint ,read to do holy deeds, with out which we can not go to Heaven. Please teach the NEW BIRTH without which no sinner will go to Heaven. Love Hoffco
The water is perfectly clear sir 
There is nothing true or of interest you can say after you said that. Do you see what you are saying? THAT is the mud here.
I hope you are not a teacher of men. I don't "confuse the law of sin and death with that which was written in stone. Here is exactly what I said, please read it;
(2Co 3:7)
But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
Care to make a retraction?
There is nothing true or of interest you can say after you said that. Do you see what you are saying? THAT is the mud here.
I hope you are not a teacher of men. I don't "confuse the law of sin and death with that which was written in stone. Here is exactly what I said, please read it;
(2Co 3:7)
But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
Care to make a retraction?