The Lord's Prayer

loveme1 · Aug 1, 2017

Grace... what on earth is possessing you to try and teach us the Lord's Prayer is not for us? The Lord's Prayer is taught by the Messiah to us.. He gave Testimony through His disciples and then it would all be here for us today....How to pray and where is given for us to learn from.

Why try to teach us this type of belief system of yours?

What good do you think comes from it?

You are trying to confuse people.. deliberately.. no I think you are deceived by someone else..

trofimus · Aug 1, 2017

Grace777x70 said:

Well, when we accept the fact that in the same time Jesus taught the kingdom already come and He also taught to pray "let your kingdom come"...

...then the prayer cannot be "dismissed" by saying "His kingdom already come spiritually", because this was true in those times too.

I have no better explanation than that Jesus (knowing the future) taught them the prayer to pray for all generations, not just for 3 years of his earthly service and therefore taught them to pray for the same thing as John says in the end of Revelation "Maran atha - come quickly".

Grace777x70 · Aug 1, 2017

Jesus said "I have many things to tell you but you cannot bear them now. But the Holy Spirit when He comes - He will teach you all things and reveal the things of Me and show them unto you."

Meaning - Jesus had many other things to tell us but the disciples couldn't understand them yet - Jesus has used Paul to show what these things are by the Holy Spirit. You do not get these in the 4 gospels. The words spoken to Paul are from Jesus' words and are just as valid.

The proclamation of Christ produces the profession of Christ, but the explanation of Christ is what produces the experience of Christ.

Believers can never fully enjoy the triumph of the gospel and express Christ in this world victoriously until there has been an explanation and exposition of the vivid details of the redemptive work of Christ that has gained a foothold in our renewed minds.

The 4 gospels were eyewitness accounts of the historical events in the life and ministry of our Lord Jesus Christ. Christianity is based on the veracity of these events as having occurred in real time, in all historicity and specificity.

Nevertheless it is the unveiling of the spiritual realities of these events that relates to the believer in Christ. This is found in the revelation that the Lord Jesus Christ gave to the apostle Paul.

The 4 gospels are the proclamation of the gospel. They disclose to us what men saw. Acts of the apostles is the demonstration of the gospel, but it is Paul's letters which give us an explanation of the gospel. It is the Pauline Epistles that are the constitution of this church age.

Paul's epistles explain what happened from the cross, death, burial, quickening and resurrection to the being seated at the right hand of the Father. Without these epistles we would have no idea what Jesus our Lord actually accomplished for us.

Paul was taught by Jesus Christ Himself to explain His gospel = to reveal the mystery that was hidden in God until it was revealed by Christ to Paul. The mystery being Christ Himself and the riches of that glory is that Christ is in us and we are in union with Him as one spirit!

These "explanations" of the mystery of the gospel that Christ is in us - cannot be found openly in the 4 gospels themselves. We need to marry the things Paul said with the words of Jesus in the 4 gospels.

It is in Paul's explanation of the gospel that Christ is in us - the hope of glory where we find the nutrients to walk by the spirit.

Grace777x70 · Aug 1, 2017

trofimus said:

Not quite. Jesus said that the kingdom was at hand - not that it had come in people themselves. It had come in manifestation in Christ Himself but not in the believers.

Paul said that the kingdom of God is righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. The Spirit was not given until Christ ascended to heaven and on the day of Pentecost - He came.

I can understand that we can ask for the kingdom to be manifested in our and ours life but the kingdom is here now spiritually within each believer. We are seated in the heavenly places with Christ now. We are "in the spirit" now. Rom. 8:9

stonesoffire · Aug 1, 2017

Grace777x70 said:

This is true. I see nothing wrong in this post and don't see how anyone could fault it. However, there will be some who will not hear it as you are speaking it. And will misquote you and apply other meanings. Those are the birds that gather on the branches of the tree of life.

Picking at the truth.

So, now I know what the teaching is about.

~[SUP]23[/SUP] "In that day you will not question Me about anything. Truly, truly, I say to you, if you ask the Father for anything in My name, He will give it to you.

[SUP]24 [/SUP] "Until now you have asked for nothing in My name; ask and you will receive, so that your joy may be made full.

[SUP]25 [/SUP] "These things I have spoken to you in figurative language; an hour is coming when I will no longer speak to you in figurative language, but will tell you plainly of the Father.

[SUP]26 [/SUP] "In that day you will ask in My name, and I do not say to you that I will request of the Father on your behalf;

Grace777x70 · Aug 1, 2017

loveme1 said:

If you would read what I actually say - then you would see what I am really saying. People are free in Christ to pray to their Father as they want. I have said this many times.

I have said numerous times that I incorporate many things from the disciple's prayer in Matt. in my praying as directed by the Spirit of God.

My whole point is that in the New Covenant we have the forgiveness of sins because of Christ's work on the cross and resurrection.

The New Covenant didn't come into effect until Jesus died and rose again to obtain our eternal forgiveness.

Here Paul says that forgiveness is all based on "according to the riches of His grace "..not if we forgive first.

Ephesians 1:7 (NASB)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace

There is no "conditional" forgiveness which is contingent on us forgiving first in the New Covenant which started after the Cross and Jesus fulfilled the law for us.

We forgive now because we are already forgiven in Christ. This is our new nature in Him in our inner man in Christ being expressed out to others.

Paul says in Eph. 4:22 to put on the new man in Christ - created in righteousness and holiness...then he shows us what this looks like in the next verses including this one below.

Ephesians 4:32 (NASB)
[SUP]32 [/SUP] Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you.

PrynceNY · Aug 1, 2017

Pray however the holy spirit leads you. I personally love praying the lords prayer then tell the lord whats on my heart. Unless the lord tells us directly to stop praying it i refuse to stop regardless of what anyone says no offense.

Grace777x70 · Aug 1, 2017

stonesoffire said:

This is true. I see nothing wrong in this post and don't see how anyone could fault it. However, there will be some who will not hear it as you are speaking it. And will misquote you and apply other meanings. Those are the birds that gather on the branches of the tree of life.

Picking at the truth.

So, now I know what the teaching is about.

~[SUP]23[/SUP] "In that day you will not question Me about anything. Truly, truly, I say to you, if you ask the Father for anything in My name, He will give it to you.

[SUP]24 [/SUP] "Until now you have asked for nothing in My name; ask and you will receive, so that your joy may be made full.

[SUP]25 [/SUP] "These things I have spoken to you in figurative language; an hour is coming when I will no longer speak to you in figurative language, but will tell you plainly of the Father.

[SUP]26 [/SUP] "In that day you will ask in My name, and I do not say to you that I will request of the Father on your behalf;

And people are free in the Lord to speak with their Father however they chose or are led by the Holy Spirit within them. They could recite it 100 times a day if they want.

stonesoffire · Aug 1, 2017

loveme1 said:

Read what he wrote, not what you think.

~
~Jesus said that the kingdom of God is "Near or at hand" at the start of His ministry because He Himself was there with them.

Then He says later that the kingdom of God shall be"in" you.

Grace777x70 · Aug 1, 2017

PrynceNY said:

Amen!..go for it!

Romans 14:22 (NASB)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] The faith which you have, have as your own conviction before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves.

loveme1 · Aug 1, 2017

Grace777x70 said:

If you would read what I actually say - then you would see what I am really saying. People are free in Christ to pray to their Father as they want. I have said this many times.

I have said numerous times that I incorporate many things from the disciple's prayer in Matt. in my praying as directed by the Spirit of God.

My whole point is that in the New Covenant we have the forgiveness of sins because of Christ's work on the cross and resurrection.

The New Covenant didn't come into effect until Jesus died and rose again to obtain our eternal forgiveness.

Here Paul says that forgiveness is all based on "according to the riches of His grace "..not if we forgive first.

Ephesians 1:7 (NASB)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace

There is no "conditional" forgiveness which is contingent on us forgiving first in the New Covenant which started after the Cross and Jesus fulfilled the law for us.

We forgive now because we are already forgiven in Christ. This is our new nature in Him in our inner man in Christ being expressed out to others.

Paul says in Eph. 4:22 to put on the new man in Christ - created in righteousness and holiness...then he shows us what this looks like in the next verses including this one below.

Ephesians 4:32 (NASB)
[SUP]32 [/SUP] Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you.

There is so much being given that you do not share. Preferring certain verses to push your belief system..

Where does the message to the churches in Revelation come in to your theology?

Grace777x70 · Aug 1, 2017

stonesoffire said:

I fully realize that this teaching on forgiveness in the New Covenant flies in the face of what we have been taught in some church teachings and thus the "fur will fly".

I expect it to happen and I also expect there to be mis-understandings too. And there will be some no matter what you say - they will deceitfully say you are saying something else.

AND they are free to disagree too....

..

I actually don't think about this subject hardly at all.

I just pray all the time and in the spirit and with my understanding. The Lord has me "practicing His presence" on a daily basis. He is renewing my mind to be aware of my union with Christ and thus my "communing" with the both of Them is being enhanced.

This scripture is being fulfilled in me to some degree.

Colossians 3:1-3 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Therefore if you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.

[SUP]2 [/SUP] Set your mind on the things above, not on the things that are on earth.

[SUP]3 [/SUP] For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God.

Grace777x70 · Aug 1, 2017

loveme1 said:

These have nothing to do with this thread. But if you start a thread on that - I would be happy to give you my views.

Nehemiah6 · Aug 1, 2017

trofimus said:

There is nothing to prevent a Christian from repeating each phrase of the Lord's Prayer (as commonly know) and then applying that principle immediately thereafter, if it assists in his praying. To review the principles let's take another look at Matthew's Gospel and see how powerful this brief prayer is. We should also remember that it was given in order to teach us how to pray:

1. GOD IN HEAVEN IS THE FATHER OF THE CHILD OF GOD
Our Father which art in Heaven

2. THE FIRST PRIORITY OF PRAYER IS WORSHIP
Hallowed be thy Name

3. WE ARE FIRSTLY TO SEEK HIS KINGDOM AND HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS
Thy Kingdom come

4. GOD'S WILL IS SUPREME
Thy will be done in earth, as it is in Heaven

5. WE MUST PETITION FOR OUR DAILY NEEDS
Give us this day our daily bread

6. WE NEED TO HAVE OUR SINS FORGIVEN DAILY WHILE FORGIVING OTHERS
And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors [we cannot expect forgiveness while we hold grudges]

7. WE NEED TO PRAY TO BE KEPT FROM TEMPTATIONS
And lead us not into temptation

8. WE NEED TO BE DELIVERED FROM EVIL AND THE EVIL ONE
But deliver us from evil

9. WE ARE TO ACKNOWLEDGE THAT GOD'S KINGDOM IS SUPREME AND ETERNAL
For thine is the Kingdom

10. WE ARE TO REMEMBER THAT ALL POWER AND GLORY BELONGS TO GOD FOREVER
And the power and the glory for ever

11. WE ARE TO SINCERELY GIVE ASSENT TO ALL OF THIS
Amen

trofimus · Aug 1, 2017

Grace777x70 said:

Not sure what you mean by "at hand".

"But if I cast out the demons by the finger of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you."
Luke 11:20

Grace777x70 said:

This is quite a complicated case for dismissing the Lord's prayer and therefore not very probable.

Grace777x70 said:

Yes, But th e kingdom of Father has not come visibly and fully yet.

"Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power."
1 Cor 15:23

loveme1 · Aug 1, 2017

Grace777x70 said:

Galatians 6

1Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted. 2Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ. 3For if a man think himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceiveth himself. 4But let every man prove his own work, and then shall he have rejoicing in himself alone, and not in another. 5For every man shall bear his own burden.
6Let him that is taught in the word communicate unto him that teacheth in all good things. 7Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. 8For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. 9And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not. 10As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith.

trofimus · Aug 1, 2017

Nehemiah6 said:

Too complicated. Why not to just pray it as it is?

loveme1 · Aug 1, 2017

Grace, have you read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation with no commentary.. page upon page?

Grace777x70 · Aug 1, 2017

Here is a post from another member of CC talking about the Lord's Prayer. It should be called the disciples prayer during the transitional time before the church age came. and I agree with this statement.

Where I dis-agree is in saying "that people cannot or should not pray it."

That is up to the believer to pray as they see fit with the understanding they have before their Father.
Quote:

My dear bro don't be mad at me for no reason. I have my reasons for saying this; and I repeat, IF ANYONE IS STILL PRAYING THE ' LORDS PRAYER" THE PRAYER THE LORD TAUGHT HIS DISCIPLE UNDER THE LAW, AS A PRAYER FOR THE CHURCH OF CHRIST TODAY? THAT PERSON IS NOT LIVING IN THE THE DISPENSATION OF THE CHURCH AGE!!!

Now i am going prove it with scriptures. Now lets take a close look at what is generally known as the "Lords prayer".

1) OUR FATHER WHO ART IN HEAVEN: In the OT He was based in heaven only, but He is now both in heaven and on earth (in his church which is the body of Christ)

2) HALLOW BE THY NAME: yes His name is still being hallowed both in heaven and on earth.

3) THY KINGDOM COME: His kingdom has already come! Christ who is the fullness of the Godhead resides in the believer.

4) THY WILL BE DONE ON EARTH AS IT IS IN HEAVEN: we cannot pray and ask that His will be done again because His will for humanity has been done on earth by the son, and the Son has now commissioned us go and announced what has been done to the ends of the earth!

5) GIVE US THIS DAY OUR DAILY BREAD: "According as his power has given unto us ALL things that pertain unto life and godliness (2 Pet 1: 3)". all things have been given to us in Christ!!

6) AND FORGIVE US OUR TRESPASSES AS WE FORGIVE THOSE WHO TRESS PASS AGAINST US: " And be you kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another even as God for Christ's sake HAS forgiven you( Eph 4:32),

" I write to you little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name sake(1 Jn 2:12)" you can see here that we get to forgive because we have been forgiven and not vice versa

7) AND LEAD US NOT INTO TEMPTATION: "let no man says when he is tempted, i am tempted of God. God cannot be tempted with evil...(James 1:13)".

8 )BUT DELIVER US FROM ALL EVIL: "who had delivered us for the power of darkness and has translated us into the kingdom of His dear Son (Col 1:13)"

There are many other scriptures that go to support this point that the believer in Christ; the church of Jesus Christ, can no longer pray the ''lords prayer". This is the reason why you cannot find the apostles praying this prayer anyway after the cross. because they have understood that Christ had fulfilled all things, even the "Lords prayer"

The Law of Sin and Death vs. The Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus

tourist · Aug 1, 2017

trofimus said:

I say this prayer every morning before I start my work day. I also have conversation all day long with God. I see absolutely nothing spiritually wrong with saying this prayer to my heavenly father as Jesus taught us to do.

The Lord's Prayer

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