I agree it is not the pattern for the New Jerusalem, because Rev.21:21 says there will be no temple with the new heavens and new earth timing. Yet it is still called the "beloved city" in Rev.20, and the wicked will exist outside the gates of the city during Christ's 1,000 years reign with His elect, and there will be a standing temple called God's House during that time also. You can't just dump those Ezekiel 40-47 chapters which go with Rev.20-22.
The Many Mansions Fallacy
- Thread starter DP
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The temple the coming Antichrist will build is destroyed on the day of Jesus' 2nd coming, which is actually what He was talking about when looking at the temple mount complex and said not one stone would be standing on top of another there (Matt.24; Mark 13).
God's House of the Ezekiel 40-47 chapters will be what our Lord Jesus creates when He comes. It will represent the following event in the Book of Daniel to complete the prophecy...
Dan 9:24
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
KJV
Zech 6:12-13
12 And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name is The BRANCH; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the LORD:
13 Even he shall build the temple of the LORD; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both.
KJV
God's House of the Ezekiel 40-47 chapters will be what our Lord Jesus creates when He comes. It will represent the following event in the Book of Daniel to complete the prophecy...
Dan 9:24
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
KJV
Zech 6:12-13
12 And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name is The BRANCH; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the LORD:
13 Even he shall build the temple of the LORD; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both.
KJV
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Well, of course ALL of those statements are LIES, if they are addressed about me. Since Adstar's post was addressed to me, I must assume this was drummed up as a smear against me, because Ahwatukee and I have debated before and he knows... I am against man's doctrine of a pre-tribulational rapture.
But I definitely am not Amill., nor a Preterist, nor believe any of those things Ahwatukee has taken such care to lie against me about.
I am Post-trib., and I believe Christ's 1,000 years reign with His elect begins at His 2nd coming. And His 2nd coming will end the "great tribulation" He taught, which is still in our near future.
But I definitely am not Amill., nor a Preterist, nor believe any of those things Ahwatukee has taken such care to lie against me about.
I am Post-trib., and I believe Christ's 1,000 years reign with His elect begins at His 2nd coming. And His 2nd coming will end the "great tribulation" He taught, which is still in our near future.
I know many struggle with those Ezekiel chapters because of the mention of animal sacrifices. Some simply dump that section of Ezekiel because of it.
Yet I don't believe real animal sacrifices are meant, but our love to The Father and The Son which replaced those sacrifices by Jesus' Blood on the cross.
But there Ezekiel is Old Testament timing, so would one expect to find the idea of animal sacrifices having ended, and replaced by our love to The Father and The Son? For that reason, I feel our Heavenly Father put the sacrifices idea there to make those future Millennial chapters fit in the OT prophets. Also, He may have done it to see just who would actually follow His command for us to study His Word line upon line, chapter by chapter, because that's the only way one is going to come to it.
Yet I don't believe real animal sacrifices are meant, but our love to The Father and The Son which replaced those sacrifices by Jesus' Blood on the cross.
But there Ezekiel is Old Testament timing, so would one expect to find the idea of animal sacrifices having ended, and replaced by our love to The Father and The Son? For that reason, I feel our Heavenly Father put the sacrifices idea there to make those future Millennial chapters fit in the OT prophets. Also, He may have done it to see just who would actually follow His command for us to study His Word line upon line, chapter by chapter, because that's the only way one is going to come to it.
[quote=Ahwatukee;2746141]
Hello DP,
The only reason that you deny exactly what the scripture states is that it kills your interpretation. Let's look at the scripture:
"John 14:2-3
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also."
* Many dwelling places
* In my Father's house (Heaven)
* I go and prepare a place for you (believers)
* I will come again, and receive you unto myself
* That where I am you may be also
To recap, Jesus is going to the Father's house, which could only be heaven, where there are many dwelling places/rooms. He's going to prepare those dwelling places for believers and then he is going to return again and take believers back to the Father's house to those dwelling places, that where He is, where all believers can be with him. Very simple to understand.
Below is the fulfillment of that promise:
"For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever."
[/quote]
Zech 6:12-13
12 And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name is The BRANCH; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the LORD:
13 Even he shall build the temple of the LORD; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne:and the counsel of peace shall be between them both.
KJV
That is what is called the "house" here, which is The Father's House of John 14:
Ezek 43:10-12
10 Thou son of man, shew the house to the house of Israel, that they may be ashamed of their iniquities: and let them measure the pattern.
11 And if they be ashamed of all that they have done, shew them the form of the house, and the fashion thereof, and the goings out thereof, and the comings in thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the laws thereof: and write it in their sight, that they may keep the whole form thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and do them.
12 This is the law of the house; Upon the top of the mountain the whole limit thereof round about shall be most holy. Behold, this is the law of the house.
KJV
Hello DP,
The only reason that you deny exactly what the scripture states is that it kills your interpretation. Let's look at the scripture:
"John 14:2-3
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also."
* Many dwelling places
* In my Father's house (Heaven)
* I go and prepare a place for you (believers)
* I will come again, and receive you unto myself
* That where I am you may be also
To recap, Jesus is going to the Father's house, which could only be heaven, where there are many dwelling places/rooms. He's going to prepare those dwelling places for believers and then he is going to return again and take believers back to the Father's house to those dwelling places, that where He is, where all believers can be with him. Very simple to understand.
Below is the fulfillment of that promise:
"For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever."
[/quote]
Zech 6:12-13
12 And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name is The BRANCH; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the LORD:
13 Even he shall build the temple of the LORD; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne:and the counsel of peace shall be between them both.
KJV
That is what is called the "house" here, which is The Father's House of John 14:
Ezek 43:10-12
10 Thou son of man, shew the house to the house of Israel, that they may be ashamed of their iniquities: and let them measure the pattern.
11 And if they be ashamed of all that they have done, shew them the form of the house, and the fashion thereof, and the goings out thereof, and the comings in thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the laws thereof: and write it in their sight, that they may keep the whole form thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and do them.
12 This is the law of the house; Upon the top of the mountain the whole limit thereof round about shall be most holy. Behold, this is the law of the house.
KJV
It is impossible for the New Jerusalem to be coming down out of heaven onto this current earth.
Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them.
The great white throne judgment takes place at the end of the thousand years. That fact is irrefutable. After the unrighteous are resurrected and stand at the great white throne judgment, heaven and earth depart from God's presence and there is no place found for them. After that judgment is when John sees the new heaven, new earth and new Jerusalem, for he says the first heaven and the first had passed away. Also, Rev.21 cannot be referring to the thousand year period and because "Death" is throne into the lake fire at the great white throne judgment, which again takes place after the thousand year reign of Christ, meaning that death is no longer in operation. That said, in Rev.21:4 as John is describing the eternal state on the new earth and new Jerusalem he says the following:
"There will be no more death’ or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”
If Rev.21 was speaking about the thousand year reign of Christ, we know that death will still be in operation during that time because it is not thrown into the lake of fire until the end of the thousand years, whereas in the new earth and new Jerusalem death is not existent from the onset.
So to recap, death is destroyed at the end of the thousand years, where death doesn't exist at all during the time of the new earth and new Jerusalem. This would also support the chronological order of Christ's millennial reign taking place on this present earth, followed by the great white throne judgment, which is then followed by the new heaven, new heaven, new earth and new Jerusalem. The temple of Ezekiel 40-48 will be built during the thousand year reign of Christ, while the new Jerusalem will be present in the new heaven and new earth.
Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them.
The great white throne judgment takes place at the end of the thousand years. That fact is irrefutable. After the unrighteous are resurrected and stand at the great white throne judgment, heaven and earth depart from God's presence and there is no place found for them. After that judgment is when John sees the new heaven, new earth and new Jerusalem, for he says the first heaven and the first had passed away. Also, Rev.21 cannot be referring to the thousand year period and because "Death" is throne into the lake fire at the great white throne judgment, which again takes place after the thousand year reign of Christ, meaning that death is no longer in operation. That said, in Rev.21:4 as John is describing the eternal state on the new earth and new Jerusalem he says the following:
"There will be no more death’ or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”
If Rev.21 was speaking about the thousand year reign of Christ, we know that death will still be in operation during that time because it is not thrown into the lake of fire until the end of the thousand years, whereas in the new earth and new Jerusalem death is not existent from the onset.
So to recap, death is destroyed at the end of the thousand years, where death doesn't exist at all during the time of the new earth and new Jerusalem. This would also support the chronological order of Christ's millennial reign taking place on this present earth, followed by the great white throne judgment, which is then followed by the new heaven, new heaven, new earth and new Jerusalem. The temple of Ezekiel 40-48 will be built during the thousand year reign of Christ, while the new Jerusalem will be present in the new heaven and new earth.
QUOTE;
I will show the difference between men's doctrines on those verses, vs. what God's Holy Writ reveals.
A. Men's doctrines teach that's about Jesus coming to 'rapture' His Church from the earth, take them to Heaven where they think The "Father's house" will be along with those "many mansions", and then to live and reign with Jesus from there forever.
Problem with that interpretation is it shows they haven't really done their homework in the Old Testament prophets like they were supposed to.
END QUOTE.......
I certainly disagree with your assertion here that those who disagree with you are wrong. See, some of us learned early on in our walk with Christ to "not lean on our own understanding," but to lean on the understanding imparted to us by the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit. It is called sanctification. You should try it, it is A TRUE JOY!
I would say your interpretation of Scripture is a classic example of "men's doctrines." So, again I ask you.......If I, and others here disagree with your interpretation of Scripture.........what does that make us?
Jesus is going to reign from Jerusalem on earth, as written. And per Zechariah 6 He will build the Millennial temple. But in God's future new heavens and new earth after the 1,000 years, there will no longer be a temple (Rev.21:22). But those abodes Jesus prepares for His elect will still exist. The rest of God's people will build houses and plant vineyards, like God said through His prophet Isaiah.
I disagree. Christ's elect will be the Zadok (The Just) that Ezek.44 mentions, and only those will be able to come near Him in that time.
Rev 3:9
9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
KJV
Jesus said that to those of the Church of Philadelphia. He is going to make those false Jews of the synagogue of Satan come and worship Christ at their feet. So where will Jesus be when they do that? He will be right next to His elect of course. So HOW can Christ's elect be there for that if they are, like you say, out in Heaven in the clouds somewhere? Sorry, you've simply been taught lies created by men instead staying in God's Word.
The sanctuary of Ezekiel called God's "house" isn't present for God's new heavens and a new earth timing when the New Jerusalem will manifest. Yet in Ezekiel 47 with that Millennial sanctuary Jesus will create, there's God's River of the waters of life along with the tree of life already! All one need do is READ, but people like you apparently are AFRAID to read that! God counts stubbornness as rebellion.
That's mostly from the Dispensationalist Pre-Trib Rapture teachings of man, particularly John Nelson Darby. That's not how it's written.
God is going to restore the 12 tribes back to the lands promised their fathers. But Christ's Church, meaning believing Israel AND believing Gentiles as ONE BODY will be gathered together to Jesus and go right there to Jerusalem, to reign over Israel and all nations, from the earth on the earth (Again Rev.5:9-10 disproves ANY... notion that we reign away off the earth, period.)
Zech 14:3-11
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when He fought in the day of battle.
4 And His feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and His name one.
10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.
11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.
KJV
WOW! The Scripture evidence of Christ's return to this earth, to Jerusalem WITH His elect, is just all over the place in that! Nowhere does it say anything... about Him going to Heaven to do all that, and He returns to Jerusalem with all His saints per that.
Once again, I am not Amill. I am Pre-Mill, and Post-trib.
Ahwatukee, as usual, doesn't know what he's talking about. He has only come here to try and smear and mock. And that he did with creating LIES about me when responding to Adstar in a previous post. Here, he is doing it again. His credibility is in the dumps.
Gee, I'm so sorry.............but, ya see, there are so very many on here who are OFFENDED when someone posts Scriptures to support their beliefs. It's hard to tell.......
Should I post Scripture............or should I not?
Nevertheless............you are avoiding my question...........as it was you who determined that those who disagree with you are not as learned in Scripture as you.........again I ask........so what does that make us?
1 Corinthians 15:33) Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners.
34 .) Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.
35 .) But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
36 .) Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
37 .) And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
38 .) But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
39 .) All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
40 .) There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 .) There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
42 .) So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 .) It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 .) It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 .) And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 .) Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 .) The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 .) As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 .) And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 .) Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 .) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 .) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 .) For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 .) So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 .) O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 .) The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57 .) But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
58 .) Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.
Revelation 6:9) And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 .) And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 .) And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
12 .) And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 .) And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 .) And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 .) And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 .) And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 .) For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
1 Thessalonians 4:17 - Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Luke 17:34-37 - I tell you, in that night there shall be two [men] in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. (Read More...)
1 Thessalonians 4:16 - For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Revelation 3:10 - Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
Mark 13:32 - But of that day and [that] hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
Revelation 20:2-5 - And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, (Read More...)
1 Corinthians 15:52 - In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1 Thessalonians 5:9 - For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
Daniel 12:1-2 - And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation [even] to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. (Read More...)
Matthew 24:29-31 - Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: (Read More...)
Matthew 24:42 - Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
Matthew 24:31 - And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Luke 12:40 - Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.
Matthew 24:27 - For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mark 13:32-37 - But of that day and [that] hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father. (Read More...)
Romans 10:9 - That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
1 Thessalonians 1:10 - And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, [even] Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
1 Thessalonians 5:2 - For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
2 Thessalonians 2:3-7 - Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; (Read More...)
Luke 17:34 - I tell you, in that night there shall be two [men] in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
Mark 14:62 - And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
Revelation 11:15-19 - And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become [the kingdoms] of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. (Read More...)
Should I post Scripture............or should I not?
Nevertheless............you are avoiding my question...........as it was you who determined that those who disagree with you are not as learned in Scripture as you.........again I ask........so what does that make us?
1 Corinthians 15:33) Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners.
34 .) Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.
35 .) But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
36 .) Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
37 .) And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
38 .) But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
39 .) All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
40 .) There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 .) There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
42 .) So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 .) It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 .) It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 .) And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 .) Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 .) The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 .) As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 .) And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 .) Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 .) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 .) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 .) For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 .) So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 .) O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 .) The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57 .) But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
58 .) Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.
Revelation 6:9) And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 .) And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 .) And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
12 .) And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 .) And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 .) And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 .) And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 .) And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 .) For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
1 Thessalonians 4:17 - Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Luke 17:34-37 - I tell you, in that night there shall be two [men] in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. (Read More...)
1 Thessalonians 4:16 - For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Revelation 3:10 - Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
Mark 13:32 - But of that day and [that] hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
Revelation 20:2-5 - And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, (Read More...)
1 Corinthians 15:52 - In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1 Thessalonians 5:9 - For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
Daniel 12:1-2 - And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation [even] to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. (Read More...)
Matthew 24:29-31 - Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: (Read More...)
Matthew 24:42 - Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
Matthew 24:31 - And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Luke 12:40 - Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.
Matthew 24:27 - For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mark 13:32-37 - But of that day and [that] hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father. (Read More...)
Romans 10:9 - That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
1 Thessalonians 1:10 - And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, [even] Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
1 Thessalonians 5:2 - For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
2 Thessalonians 2:3-7 - Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; (Read More...)
Luke 17:34 - I tell you, in that night there shall be two [men] in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
Mark 14:62 - And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
Revelation 11:15-19 - And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become [the kingdoms] of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. (Read More...)
Careful, Ahwatukee will probably begin labeling you as Pre-Mill before it's over, since he KNOWS I am Pre-Mill and Post Trib and he has come here to smear with trying to lable me Amill, something I am not. He's done the Catholic smear thing too, and gotten ignorant people like Mitspa believing that I'm Catholic. Not that I hate Catholics, but Ahwatukee knows... I am not a Catholic, because he's heard me say my ancestors were Huguenots from France, i.e., the first French Protestants that fought against the Catholic Church in earlier centuries.
And....THIS is why I don't worry/study/argue about eschatology.
Does it matter? Really? We believers KNOW how it ends.
Whether there is or is not a rapture..pre, post, a, ....if that is going to affect the way you live your life, you've missed the point.
You want to study it? Cool...but when it brings you to pointless, silly arguments and calling each other liars and stupid?
Look up the word Pharisee, and see what Jesus had to say about them.
Does it matter? Really? We believers KNOW how it ends.
Whether there is or is not a rapture..pre, post, a, ....if that is going to affect the way you live your life, you've missed the point.
You want to study it? Cool...but when it brings you to pointless, silly arguments and calling each other liars and stupid?
Look up the word Pharisee, and see what Jesus had to say about them.
Well, it's not just about the idea of 'posting' Scripture either. It's about the understanding of Scripture and being able to explain yourself.
I stand by my comment. The Pre-trib Rapture doctrine Dispensationalism was a doctrine devised by men, like Edward Iriving and John Nelson Darby. It was never a belief by the early 1st/2nd century Church fathers. And it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out the Pre-trib Rapture theory as an attempted addition to God's Holy Writ.
You think that above by Apostle Paul proves a Pre-trib Rapture to live in the sky? It doesn't. I'll bet you've never read and understood Isaiah 25 regarding death being swallowed, which is where Paul was pulling from. On the final day of this world, the "day of the Lord", all still alive on earth will be change at the twinkling of an eye like Paul said there, and the heavenly will be opened up right here, on earth. Jesus will come then to gather His Church, the asleep saints He brings with Him, and then those of His still alive, and then they ALL go with Him to return to Jerusalem, on earth!
Per Isaiah 25, all alive on earth will be changed to the "spiritual body" Paul was talking about. On the "day of The Lord" when God's consuming fire will destroy the elements of this world, no one will have a flesh perishable body like today anymore. And that includes the wicked also who go through Christ's future 1,000 years reign. If you want me to go deeper with line upon line Scripture about this, start another thread, instead of hi-jacking this one.
What are you trying to prove with the above quote? That's about the events of Matt.24 and Mark 13 also. Have you bothered to compare?
But why did you leave out what Paul said about the "asleep" saints, that Jesus brings them with Him from Heaven when He comes to gather these that are still alive?
And why have you left out the Zechariah 14 Scripture which tells us WHERE our Lord Jesus is going to set foot upon when He returns on that day, bringing us with Him? It's to Jerusalem, ON EARTH per that Zech.14 Scripture.
I see you haven't bothered to actually read... the very LAST verse of that Luke 17 Chapter. In that final verse, Jesus' disciples asked Him, "Where, Lord" about those 'taken'. Jesus' answer was that wheresoever the body is, that's where the eagles will be gathered. The Matt.24:28 version of that uses the word "carcase" instead of "body". It means the one TAKEN is to where the fowls are gathered to feast on a dead carcase! IT AIN'T ABOUT BEING RAPTURED TO HEAVEN AT ALL!
Jesus expects us to remain in the field working for Him, at the grinding wheel grinding, working for Him, and that's how He expects to find us when He comes.
That's right, on the final trumpet, the 7th trumpet - 3rd Woe of Rev.11 is when He comes to end the tribulation and the reign of that Wicked one of 2 Thess.2. And Jesus shall bring the "asleep" saints with Him then, and per John 5:28-29 BOTH the "resurrection of life" and the "resurrection of damnation" will happen in that hour also. That will only occur at the END of the tribulation; it does not happen prior to the trib.
He said "hour of temptation", not the "great tribulation". But I doubt you know what the "hour of temptation" actually is for the end. If you're kept from temptation it means you can't be tempted. But from what?
Have you ever read me putting a date on the day of our Lord Jesus's 2nd coming? No, you have not, and will not ever.
Now you're just throwing up Scripture to act as filler-fodder. That has nothing to do with showing whether our Lord Jesus returns before or after the trib. But that event will be after the trib. anyone using common sense should be able to grasp, because how... can the trib still be going on once that dragon is subdued by Christ? And it that is the time of Jesus' 2nd coming, then it's easy to know He comes at the end of the trib to subdue that dragon.
The rest of the verses you posted, like these above, have nothing to do with disproving anything I've showed regarding the Ezekiel sanctuary called The Father's house. But I took time to respond to some of those you posted, so you should be happy.
I never said Christ's 1,000 years reign begins at any other time than at His 2nd coming, and that His 2nd coming to gather His Church will occur at the end of the tribulation. That's a PRE-MILLENNIAL, Post-Trib position by the way, NOT Amill. You told a big flat LIE against me with that, and with trying to make others think I'm a Catholic, so buzz off, you are a LIAR and not worth me responding to, God rebuke you LIAR.