The meaty part
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Ok, before I say anything, please understand that this thread is a bear to people with dislexia, so please be patient with my mistakes.
Santification is set upon us because of the blood of Jesus.
Justifcation is faith, lived and the work of faith.
Fruit is the result of that which is given through one who is grafted in Jesus.
and then rince repeat.
God bless
pickles
Santification is set upon us because of the blood of Jesus.
Justifcation is faith, lived and the work of faith.
Fruit is the result of that which is given through one who is grafted in Jesus.
and then rince repeat.
God bless
pickles
Wow what an oversensitive spooked fella you are. In no way was i derailing your thread.
But since i can tell you have major incorrect presumptions to the point of making me out
to be whatever you think ill sure let you have your thread without me here to bug you out
But ive been honest with you, that im new to calvinism, and so far its not that im not willing
to commit as if im queezy or something. Its more at this point that im committed to look at
it as a philosophy maintaining credibility these days mostly by force and evasion with/by
misleading rhetoric. And havnt seen a calvinist yet who will be forthright in their beliefs
or face the implications their theology goes. Other than hate. Which in fact is one of the implications.
But since i can tell you have major incorrect presumptions to the point of making me out
to be whatever you think ill sure let you have your thread without me here to bug you out
But ive been honest with you, that im new to calvinism, and so far its not that im not willing
to commit as if im queezy or something. Its more at this point that im committed to look at
it as a philosophy maintaining credibility these days mostly by force and evasion with/by
misleading rhetoric. And havnt seen a calvinist yet who will be forthright in their beliefs
or face the implications their theology goes. Other than hate. Which in fact is one of the implications.
Would you like to have a friendly discussion with me on the absolute sovereignty of God?
I'll be kind, but I need you to be clear and not cryptic, and to give straight forward answers.
Wanna?
A
Im sorta preoccupied listening to some teaching series. Its not so much that i want to discuss
anything. I usually jump into threads when the interest is there and im here.
I rekon you asked me to talk because ive had a blow out of sorts here in this thread.
And you have a desire to deal with that. correct? so maybe you have something to throw out.
because ive actually not even understood as of lately the dialogue with some.
And its sent me to study to understand their position. Im not a debater. But issues
arose in me lately, that im working out. Alonesince ive been slipped the black dot.
anything. I usually jump into threads when the interest is there and im here.
I rekon you asked me to talk because ive had a blow out of sorts here in this thread.
And you have a desire to deal with that. correct? so maybe you have something to throw out.
because ive actually not even understood as of lately the dialogue with some.
And its sent me to study to understand their position. Im not a debater. But issues
arose in me lately, that im working out. Alone
since ive been slipped the black dot.
C
Say I did confuse being found not guilty with being made holy, how will that nullify the Gospel?
It is because I have been found not guilty that I am being made holy. (you are forgiven, I will make you holy (as a repentant looking for forgiveness, He will make us holy))
Reversed: it is because I have been made holy that I am being found not guilty. (you are holy, I will forgive you (as His children we are forgiven))
The question is not the order of salvation, but how it would nullify the Gospel.
It is because I have been found not guilty that I am being made holy. (you are forgiven, I will make you holy (as a repentant looking for forgiveness, He will make us holy))
Reversed: it is because I have been made holy that I am being found not guilty. (you are holy, I will forgive you (as His children we are forgiven))
The question is not the order of salvation, but how it would nullify the Gospel.
Let us LOOK again at the verses you qouted......
First thing first... HE HATH RAISED US UP TOGETHER....How can Jesus RAISE us up before we died? How can we die if we do not follow (walk after Jesus) with our crosses? Death comes before RAISE UP!!!!
LOOK crossnotes... ALL who DIED ON THE CROSS WITH HIM ARE RAISED UP..... How did they die? by WALKING AFTER HIM WITH THEIR CROSSES... So they died and now AFTER BEING RAISED UP (made Holy) they can SIT WITH JESUS...Jesus leads and we follow, then we DIE AND HE RAISE US TO SIT WITH HIM.... The CALLING is over, we have ARRIVED!!!
Paul ALREADY WALKED THIS WALK.. HE WAS Saul when HE WALKED WITH HIS CROSS...And He was PAUL AFTER, AND AS PAUL HE SAT with Jesus.... Paul was the Raised SAUL. SAUL NEVER sat with Jesus, PAUL DID! SAUL FOLLOWED JESUS TO THE END AND WAS CRUCIFIED WITH CHRIST... PAUL WAS THE REBORN IN JESUS... PAUL WAS THE RESURRECTED (MADE ALIVE) SAUL AFTER HE DIED SPIRITUALLY IN CHRIST ON THE CROSS....
The second verse you quoted... Now Paul, A PRISONER of the Lord, ASKS (beseech) all whom he writes to, to walk WORTHY of the CALLING... SEE they have not been to the DEAD PART YET... God's CALLED people are SENT people when they finish their CALLING.... If you look at verse 3 you will see that they ARE NOT YET MADE ONE... They are still on their way, WALKING AFTER JESUS WITH THEIR CROSSES.... They have now died YET, and the were not RAISED YET... Thier VOCATION is the invitation to FOLLOW, to die, and to be RAISED and sit with Jesus!
They are still INVITES, they have NOT ARRIVED AS PAUL DID!!!!
Before we sit with Jesus WE WALK..... Jesus said... COME AND FOLLOW ME IF YOU WANT TO BE PERFECT...
First thing first... HE HATH RAISED US UP TOGETHER....How can Jesus RAISE us up before we died? How can we die if we do not follow (walk after Jesus) with our crosses? Death comes before RAISE UP!!!!
LOOK crossnotes... ALL who DIED ON THE CROSS WITH HIM ARE RAISED UP..... How did they die? by WALKING AFTER HIM WITH THEIR CROSSES... So they died and now AFTER BEING RAISED UP (made Holy) they can SIT WITH JESUS...Jesus leads and we follow, then we DIE AND HE RAISE US TO SIT WITH HIM.... The CALLING is over, we have ARRIVED!!!
Paul ALREADY WALKED THIS WALK.. HE WAS Saul when HE WALKED WITH HIS CROSS...And He was PAUL AFTER, AND AS PAUL HE SAT with Jesus.... Paul was the Raised SAUL. SAUL NEVER sat with Jesus, PAUL DID! SAUL FOLLOWED JESUS TO THE END AND WAS CRUCIFIED WITH CHRIST... PAUL WAS THE REBORN IN JESUS... PAUL WAS THE RESURRECTED (MADE ALIVE) SAUL AFTER HE DIED SPIRITUALLY IN CHRIST ON THE CROSS....
The second verse you quoted... Now Paul, A PRISONER of the Lord, ASKS (beseech) all whom he writes to, to walk WORTHY of the CALLING... SEE they have not been to the DEAD PART YET... God's CALLED people are SENT people when they finish their CALLING.... If you look at verse 3 you will see that they ARE NOT YET MADE ONE... They are still on their way, WALKING AFTER JESUS WITH THEIR CROSSES.... They have now died YET, and the were not RAISED YET... Thier VOCATION is the invitation to FOLLOW, to die, and to be RAISED and sit with Jesus!
They are still INVITES, they have NOT ARRIVED AS PAUL DID!!!!
Before we sit with Jesus WE WALK..... Jesus said... COME AND FOLLOW ME IF YOU WANT TO BE PERFECT...
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Cobus this is how I died and have been raised in Christ...
having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead. And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross.
(Col 2:12-14)
Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God.
(Rom 7:4)
Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. For one who has died has been set free from sin. Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him.
(Rom 6:3-9)
You seem to be preaching from the other side of Calvary.
Let me ask you,have you attained that perfect righteousness required by law?
If so how?
If not when?
I have peace with God through the Blood of Jesus and His perfect righteousness placed to my account.
How do you have peace with God? Through your works? Do you not realize that those who are under the works of the Law are under a curse since they don't because they can't keep the WHOLE Law?
having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead. And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross.
(Col 2:12-14)
Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God.
(Rom 7:4)
Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. For one who has died has been set free from sin. Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him.
(Rom 6:3-9)
You seem to be preaching from the other side of Calvary.
Let me ask you,have you attained that perfect righteousness required by law?
If so how?
If not when?
I have peace with God through the Blood of Jesus and His perfect righteousness placed to my account.
How do you have peace with God? Through your works? Do you not realize that those who are under the works of the Law are under a curse since they don't because they can't keep the WHOLE Law?
Yep! I am still on the wrong side of the cross! I NEED the blood of Christ Jesus! I am a sinner, and in desperate need of God's salvation. To be FREED from sin.
I will NOT have peace, as long as I am in this body, God has to come and live in this body, that is why I am (cruifying) KILLING the OLD Cobus by denying the flesh to do what he wants.... If you want to call it legalism (another word not in the Bible) you may, I call it Dieng to the lusts of the flesh, AS THE HOLY SPIRIT LEADS me to do! Crucifying the Old man, so God can AWAKEN a new man...
Any man that has peace in sin, or still sin and have peace, does not know God's peace. God does not give peace to sinners, he gives peace to those that CAME TO HIM... And in HIM IS NO SIN...God's peace HAS NO SIN!
Sin is seperation from God, PEACE in God is SEPERATED FROM SIN, AS YOU QUOTED... Not seperaten IN SIN, Seperated FROM sin.... Sanctified... Set apart by God for God IN GOD! NO SIN in that picture... There is still sin in me, I am not IN God with sin in me! God is not IN me if there is sin in me....
This thing that people think God will share a body with HIMSELF and sin is just so FALSE and full of flaws...
I will be perfect when God lives in me and I IN HIM. ALL sin would be SEPERATED from me as far as the east is from the WEST when God seperates me from IT. And I will be IN God if He is IN me. I am still IN me, in this flesh....
God said very clearly.... FATHER I WANT THEM TO BE WHERE I AM... WHERE is Jesus? I in them, they in me, AS I AM IN THEE AND THEE IN ME... John 17... Read it once more, and see how Jesus really does come live in us, and we IN HIM...
The World CANNOT even see us when we are there... God says your life is HID IN GOD WITH CHRIST... I can still see you crossnotes, and I am still of the world...
When I look at youI should see Jesus! I do not, SORRY, very SORRY to say my friend... And believe me, I CAN see Jesus, He is beautiful and pure and TRUTH and holiness, and LIFE and I would LOVE if God can make me in that image... And I think HE did start, that is why I can love you so much.... He is busy to MAKE ME LOVE YOU AS HE LOVES JESUS!
It is all about what God made in JESUS.... God will make in us...
I will NOT have peace, as long as I am in this body, God has to come and live in this body, that is why I am (cruifying) KILLING the OLD Cobus by denying the flesh to do what he wants.... If you want to call it legalism (another word not in the Bible) you may, I call it Dieng to the lusts of the flesh, AS THE HOLY SPIRIT LEADS me to do! Crucifying the Old man, so God can AWAKEN a new man...
Any man that has peace in sin, or still sin and have peace, does not know God's peace. God does not give peace to sinners, he gives peace to those that CAME TO HIM... And in HIM IS NO SIN...God's peace HAS NO SIN!
Sin is seperation from God, PEACE in God is SEPERATED FROM SIN, AS YOU QUOTED... Not seperaten IN SIN, Seperated FROM sin.... Sanctified... Set apart by God for God IN GOD! NO SIN in that picture... There is still sin in me, I am not IN God with sin in me! God is not IN me if there is sin in me....
This thing that people think God will share a body with HIMSELF and sin is just so FALSE and full of flaws...
I will be perfect when God lives in me and I IN HIM. ALL sin would be SEPERATED from me as far as the east is from the WEST when God seperates me from IT. And I will be IN God if He is IN me. I am still IN me, in this flesh....
God said very clearly.... FATHER I WANT THEM TO BE WHERE I AM... WHERE is Jesus? I in them, they in me, AS I AM IN THEE AND THEE IN ME... John 17... Read it once more, and see how Jesus really does come live in us, and we IN HIM...
The World CANNOT even see us when we are there... God says your life is HID IN GOD WITH CHRIST... I can still see you crossnotes, and I am still of the world...
When I look at youI should see Jesus! I do not, SORRY, very SORRY to say my friend... And believe me, I CAN see Jesus, He is beautiful and pure and TRUTH and holiness, and LIFE and I would LOVE if God can make me in that image... And I think HE did start, that is why I can love you so much.... He is busy to MAKE ME LOVE YOU AS HE LOVES JESUS!
It is all about what God made in JESUS.... God will make in us...
Cobus,
Once again Cobus, take a breath, focus and simply answer these questions I asked you on my previous post.
...,have you attained that perfect righteousness required by the Law?
If so how?
If not when?
I have peace with God through the Blood of Jesus and His perfect righteousness placed to my account.
How do you have peace with God? Through your works? Do you not realize that those who are under the works of the Law are under a curse since they don't because they can't keep the WHOLE Law?
Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
(Rom 3:19-26)
Once again Cobus, take a breath, focus and simply answer these questions I asked you on my previous post.
...,have you attained that perfect righteousness required by the Law?
If so how?
If not when?
I have peace with God through the Blood of Jesus and His perfect righteousness placed to my account.
How do you have peace with God? Through your works? Do you not realize that those who are under the works of the Law are under a curse since they don't because they can't keep the WHOLE Law?
Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
(Rom 3:19-26)
I am a bit confused as to your question. However. To Paul, once the law came to him, sin sprang to life and he died.
Sin used what was good and Holy to wrought all manner of covetous desire/concupiscence in Paul.
Paul wrote:
For sin seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment deceived me, and by it slew me
Rom7:11
To Paul the power of sin was the law(1Cor15:56) Because he feared if he could not obey the law he was condemned, sin used that knowledge/belief to arouse all kiinds of sin in Paul and slay him by it. For Paul was living under the law unto salvation, a righteousness of law keeping(or justification of law keeping) if you like, and the consequences of faliure to uphold the law
But when Paul became a Christian he died to a righteousness of law keeping, and lived under a sole righteousness of faith in Christ. He knew then he could not earn his way to Heaven by being good enough under the law, he was free from that which had wrought all manner of sin in him, a righteousness before God of obediance to the law. Therefore as sin had sprang to life in him and produced every kind of covetous desire in him due to him believing he had a righteousness before God of obediance to the law, now Paul was living under a righteousness of faith in Christ sin would start to lose its grip over him, because what caused sin to be so made manifest in him had been removed.
Therefore by Paul focusing on a sole righteousness before God of faith in Christ the consequence of that had to be that sin would not be Paul's master, he would start to live a holier life.
So if you know you are found not guilty because Christ died for you on the cross there is linkage with that obviously to living a holier life, it is a natural prgression if you like, but this can only happen if you do not look at this subject with the view that unless I live a holy life I am condemned, for once you actually look at it that way you are in effect back under law and sin shall be your master, does that make sense?
Living a holier life hinges on believing you have a sole righteousness before God of faith in Christ, you can never take the view, that UNLESS you live a holier life you are condemned
For sin shall not be your master, for thyou are notr under law but under grace
Rom6:14
The linkage is there, but can only happen as long as you believe you have but one righteousness for Heaven before God, faith in Christ, not by ACTUALLY linking that in your own mind to condemnation if the linkage does not happen, for once you do that you put yourself back under the law
My apologies if I have explained that badly
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Oh please bookends... it was not the LAW that required perfection it was JESUS. So you see I cannot answer a question that is already in error. Can you mabe ask something that makes sence?
There is noting wrong with the Law, Jesus only knew how much more power would be in HIS salvation that was in the LAW, that is why He said.... BE PERFECT... Matthew 5:48. Jesus knew that AFTER HE would be resurrected, what HIS SALVATION is capable of, and a guarentee to ALL who are saved... That they ALL would be in the SAME STATURE AND MEASURE AND FULNESS OF JESUS HIMSELF....
Jesus KNEW that every person that HE saves would be ONE with God and perfect even as the Father that REGENERATED them to be PERFECT... That is how perfection is reached. When would I get that promise... I do not know. How would i get that promise... Exactly like Jesus said.... God would make me a NEW creature IN CHRIST.... In HIS IMAGE and LIKENESS, Like Adam was.... Without sin.... PERFECT!
That is just what God does, and HE IS THE ONLY ONE THAT CAN DO THIS.... I can only hope I am also of HIS elect. If you are there already, which I doubt, becasue you do not even believe in Matthew 5:48, 1 John3:9, 1 John 5:18, Eph 4:11 to 13,... that is why I doubt you are there already, but as I have hope for me, I also encourage you to FOLLOW Jesus ALL the way my friend... Remember how Jesus warned the ones that offers blessings and peace and do not have it themselves.... BEWARE of those FALSE teachers my friend... I have not the peace JESUS offers, but I WANT it... Let us see if God takes me there,,...
There is noting wrong with the Law, Jesus only knew how much more power would be in HIS salvation that was in the LAW, that is why He said.... BE PERFECT... Matthew 5:48. Jesus knew that AFTER HE would be resurrected, what HIS SALVATION is capable of, and a guarentee to ALL who are saved... That they ALL would be in the SAME STATURE AND MEASURE AND FULNESS OF JESUS HIMSELF....
Jesus KNEW that every person that HE saves would be ONE with God and perfect even as the Father that REGENERATED them to be PERFECT... That is how perfection is reached. When would I get that promise... I do not know. How would i get that promise... Exactly like Jesus said.... God would make me a NEW creature IN CHRIST.... In HIS IMAGE and LIKENESS, Like Adam was.... Without sin.... PERFECT!
That is just what God does, and HE IS THE ONLY ONE THAT CAN DO THIS.... I can only hope I am also of HIS elect. If you are there already, which I doubt, becasue you do not even believe in Matthew 5:48, 1 John3:9, 1 John 5:18, Eph 4:11 to 13,... that is why I doubt you are there already, but as I have hope for me, I also encourage you to FOLLOW Jesus ALL the way my friend... Remember how Jesus warned the ones that offers blessings and peace and do not have it themselves.... BEWARE of those FALSE teachers my friend... I have not the peace JESUS offers, but I WANT it... Let us see if God takes me there,,...
Mark, let us look at the WORK God does in a person He saves....
God says... Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Now many people agree on the first 70% of this verse.. but they reckon the glorification only happens in the here-after... and that is INCORRECT.
When Jesus prayed to the Father He said in John 17.... HE IS GLORIFIED IN THEM... God gave the glorification of JESUS to all the SAVED people! Right here on this earth...
Paul said.... And they glorified God in me.....
There are many places in the Bible where God DECLARES people to be perfect and in HIS will to the same measure of Christ. Even when He shall appear that ALL saved will be EQUAL to Jesus.... And they were made so tight here on earth. A powerul verse that cnfirms this is this verse....
Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
I did not make these statements, GOD did, and HE MAY, because HE is God and HE knows how pwoerful HE SAVES... God knows to deliver HIS CHILDREN from evil..... IF God delivers, you are perfectly delivered... He does not make mistakes or halfwitted attmpts to save... HE SAVES INTO HIM, TIGHT HERE on earth...
God says... Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Now many people agree on the first 70% of this verse.. but they reckon the glorification only happens in the here-after... and that is INCORRECT.
When Jesus prayed to the Father He said in John 17.... HE IS GLORIFIED IN THEM... God gave the glorification of JESUS to all the SAVED people! Right here on this earth...
Paul said.... And they glorified God in me.....
There are many places in the Bible where God DECLARES people to be perfect and in HIS will to the same measure of Christ. Even when He shall appear that ALL saved will be EQUAL to Jesus.... And they were made so tight here on earth. A powerul verse that cnfirms this is this verse....
Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
I did not make these statements, GOD did, and HE MAY, because HE is God and HE knows how pwoerful HE SAVES... God knows to deliver HIS CHILDREN from evil..... IF God delivers, you are perfectly delivered... He does not make mistakes or halfwitted attmpts to save... HE SAVES INTO HIM, TIGHT HERE on earth...