The MOST CONTROVERSIAL STATEMENT MADE
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has someone said "don't be baptized" ?
the prevailing thought among the first believers was that salvation was not for the Gentiles, but only the Jews.
and then at Cornelius' house, God corrected them by filling with His Spirit a group of Gentiles who had done absolutely nothing more than heard the gospel of Christ and believed. (Acts 10)
i think before this Peter assumed that the Holy Spirit - God's earnest of our salvation (Ephesians 1:14, 2 Corinthians 1:22) - was only given by baptism. that's what i see when i read his joyfully sarcastic assessment of the situation in front of him: "who can forbid their baptism now??"
the sign worked by God is greater than any sign done by human hands.
God felt it necessary to send three visions to convince Peter to go to with these 'unclean men' at all.
when he later explained what had happened to the believing Jews, he said that moment was when he remembered that Jesus had said He would baptize with spirit, where John only baptized with H[SUB]2[/SUB]O. (Acts 11:16)
which brings us to this..
Jesus was baptized by John - whose baptism was unto repentance - "to fulfill all righteousness"
this is not the baptism that we are baptized with. (Acts 19:1-7)
this was not the immersion that Jesus told the disciples to immerse with, making disciples.
if the like picture is Christ's baptism in H[SUB]2[/SUB]O, and it is in the same way "to fulfill all righteousness" then as it was not Christ that needed to be baptized of John, but John of Him, H[SUB]2[/SUB]O baptism does not save, but salvation is in the one who is sent by God to confess and be baptized. (Matthew 3:14)
wouldn't you agree?
has someone rejected being baptized by H[SUB]2[/SUB]O ?
is a public baptism not tantamount to confessing Jesus the Son of God crucified and risen? (every baptism i've ever witnessed, this statement was first publicly made by the believer - is that regional?)
if public baptism ~ public confession, then yes, for sure whoever will not confess Him before men will not be confessed by Him before the Father!
but what about a person who submits to being baptized by H[SUB]2[/SUB]O, teaches that all that believe should also be baptized in H[SUB]2[/SUB]O publicly, but insists that "everyone that calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" (Joel 2:32)? what about a person who concedes all judgement to Christ and refuses to call anything but Him the way of salvation? what if a person claims that spiritual life begins at spiritual conception?
the prevailing thought among the first believers was that salvation was not for the Gentiles, but only the Jews.
and then at Cornelius' house, God corrected them by filling with His Spirit a group of Gentiles who had done absolutely nothing more than heard the gospel of Christ and believed. (Acts 10)
i think before this Peter assumed that the Holy Spirit - God's earnest of our salvation (Ephesians 1:14, 2 Corinthians 1:22) - was only given by baptism. that's what i see when i read his joyfully sarcastic assessment of the situation in front of him: "who can forbid their baptism now??"
the sign worked by God is greater than any sign done by human hands.
God felt it necessary to send three visions to convince Peter to go to with these 'unclean men' at all.
when he later explained what had happened to the believing Jews, he said that moment was when he remembered that Jesus had said He would baptize with spirit, where John only baptized with H[SUB]2[/SUB]O. (Acts 11:16)
which brings us to this..
Jesus was baptized by John - whose baptism was unto repentance - "to fulfill all righteousness"
this is not the baptism that we are baptized with. (Acts 19:1-7)
this was not the immersion that Jesus told the disciples to immerse with, making disciples.
if the like picture is Christ's baptism in H[SUB]2[/SUB]O, and it is in the same way "to fulfill all righteousness" then as it was not Christ that needed to be baptized of John, but John of Him, H[SUB]2[/SUB]O baptism does not save, but salvation is in the one who is sent by God to confess and be baptized. (Matthew 3:14)
wouldn't you agree?
has someone rejected being baptized by H[SUB]2[/SUB]O ?
is a public baptism not tantamount to confessing Jesus the Son of God crucified and risen? (every baptism i've ever witnessed, this statement was first publicly made by the believer - is that regional?)
if public baptism ~ public confession, then yes, for sure whoever will not confess Him before men will not be confessed by Him before the Father!
but what about a person who submits to being baptized by H[SUB]2[/SUB]O, teaches that all that believe should also be baptized in H[SUB]2[/SUB]O publicly, but insists that "everyone that calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" (Joel 2:32)? what about a person who concedes all judgement to Christ and refuses to call anything but Him the way of salvation? what if a person claims that spiritual life begins at spiritual conception?
E
If you actually only "if you have to rely on the Holy Spirit to come to me " (in your words) then you may be in a bit of trouble.
Oh and that's fine as I will be in on the salvation discussion too. And so you know where I stand right out of the gate...i guess you could say i follow reformed theology. Otherwise known as....Biblical. You know guys like J. I. Packer, R. C. Sproul, Calvin, Luther, Augustine and oh yeah God.
But that's for tomorrow
Oh and that's fine as I will be in on the salvation discussion too. And so you know where I stand right out of the gate...i guess you could say i follow reformed theology. Otherwise known as....Biblical. You know guys like J. I. Packer, R. C. Sproul, Calvin, Luther, Augustine and oh yeah God.
But that's for tomorrow
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C
This has got to be one of the most hard-core craziest topic discussions that I've ever witnessed. How many threads on this now?
If you don't Love, you're not saved!
I only came on a thread on this topic because one was saying that if a guy in prison got saved but couldn't get to water for immersion and died - that he would go to hell. And he condemned everyone else to hell that doesn't interpret God's Word the way some of us do. I asked about those that get saved in their death bed, which I'm very familiar with and as far as what he stated about the guy in prison - they're salvation became null & void as well. And the people in other countries where there is no water to be immersed in too - cannot be saved then as well, according to his belief.
Now the opposing view-point is comdemning people of that guy's viewpoint to Hell.
That is a very dangerous thing to do, besides the 'meanness' of how we talk to one another. People that just joined. People we don't even know?
I post HIS Words and just leave it up to the person to decide what to do with His Words, but to use such harsh language at the opposing view-point and/or condemn them to Hell is a very dangerous thing to do, according to sum total of His New Testament.
Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
If you don't Love, you're not saved!
I only came on a thread on this topic because one was saying that if a guy in prison got saved but couldn't get to water for immersion and died - that he would go to hell. And he condemned everyone else to hell that doesn't interpret God's Word the way some of us do. I asked about those that get saved in their death bed, which I'm very familiar with and as far as what he stated about the guy in prison - they're salvation became null & void as well. And the people in other countries where there is no water to be immersed in too - cannot be saved then as well, according to his belief.
Now the opposing view-point is comdemning people of that guy's viewpoint to Hell.
That is a very dangerous thing to do, besides the 'meanness' of how we talk to one another. People that just joined. People we don't even know?
I post HIS Words and just leave it up to the person to decide what to do with His Words, but to use such harsh language at the opposing view-point and/or condemn them to Hell is a very dangerous thing to do, according to sum total of His New Testament.
Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
E
it is nuts.
we talk about how H[SUB]2[/SUB]O baptism is only a physical picture of a great spiritual reality, and we're accused of condemning or forbidding baptism and disobeying the command of God.
we talk about how God alone is the author of our salvation, and the cause and enabling power behind every good thing we do, and we're accused of preaching that we should do nothing.
we talk about how we are saved by grace, not by any works, and we're accused of wanting to continue on in sin.
we talk about being dead to the law and no longer under it, and how our righteousness comes from Christ, not from ourselves, and we're accused of hating justice and righteousness and loving lawlessness.
we talk about fixing our eyes on heaven and remembering that we're citizens of God's kingdom, no longer of the world, and we're accused of burying our heads in the sand and running away from all our problems.
we talk about loving our neighbors, serving the poor and treating even our enemies with compassion, and we're accused of being sympathizers with criminals, terrorists and the ungodly.
we talk gratefully about the free and wonderful gift of God to whosoever will believe, and we're accused of not loving Him.
but all this is nothing, in fact it's an honor, because we talk this way in service and praise to the risen Lord, not humans!
we talk about how H[SUB]2[/SUB]O baptism is only a physical picture of a great spiritual reality, and we're accused of condemning or forbidding baptism and disobeying the command of God.
we talk about how God alone is the author of our salvation, and the cause and enabling power behind every good thing we do, and we're accused of preaching that we should do nothing.
we talk about how we are saved by grace, not by any works, and we're accused of wanting to continue on in sin.
we talk about being dead to the law and no longer under it, and how our righteousness comes from Christ, not from ourselves, and we're accused of hating justice and righteousness and loving lawlessness.
we talk about fixing our eyes on heaven and remembering that we're citizens of God's kingdom, no longer of the world, and we're accused of burying our heads in the sand and running away from all our problems.
we talk about loving our neighbors, serving the poor and treating even our enemies with compassion, and we're accused of being sympathizers with criminals, terrorists and the ungodly.
we talk gratefully about the free and wonderful gift of God to whosoever will believe, and we're accused of not loving Him.
but all this is nothing, in fact it's an honor, because we talk this way in service and praise to the risen Lord, not humans!
Romans 10:8,9 "but what does it say? "The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart," that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: That if you confess with your mouth "Jesus is Lord", and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Baptism for salvation where?
K
Paul said that because he was trying to make the point that it does not matter who you are baptized BY but rather who you are baptized INTO. If you read the rest of the sentence in 1 cor 1:15 he says why- so that they couldn't claim they were baptized into Paul's name. It is not Paul's church, it's Christ's church. Paul is a fellow servant. The only head of the church is Christ. (Matt. 28:19, Rom. 6:3, Col. 1:18, Matt. 28:18).
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T
So I'm to be like Eve then? How am I lersonally to be able to tell right from wrong interpretation if I don't use my conscience? Should I murder someone then if I don't need a conscience to interpret the Bible? I have to have my conscience to tell myself what I find good and what I find bad. Now the ultimate test is does my interpretation of good and evil match that of what God's Word says? If so then I interpret correctly, if not then there is an error in my interpretation.
Were you ever baptized I am truly curious? My understanding of being baptized is that you are dying to sin/laying down your life of sin becoming a new creation in Christ Jesus. Is this a wrong understanding? A way to publicly profess your faith in Jesus. I don't know maybe my thinking is wrong on the subject. But I see no harm in this.
Now if someone is ill and could not be baptized I don't see that affecting their salvation of accepting Jesus as their Savior either. I think people forget that salvation isn't a to do check list, but more of an accept what Jesus death has done for you and repent asking for forgiveness then turning away from sin and this can only be done with the help of the Holy Spirit living in us.
Why do we seem to make mountains out of mole hills? Why even argue or debate about being baptized or not? What does this have to do with our salvation? I dunno...seems silly to me.
Now if someone is ill and could not be baptized I don't see that affecting their salvation of accepting Jesus as their Savior either. I think people forget that salvation isn't a to do check list, but more of an accept what Jesus death has done for you and repent asking for forgiveness then turning away from sin and this can only be done with the help of the Holy Spirit living in us.
Why do we seem to make mountains out of mole hills? Why even argue or debate about being baptized or not? What does this have to do with our salvation? I dunno...seems silly to me.
If Jesus knew that the only way that we would be saved was by water then why did He have to die on the cross?
Simple question.
If it was that simple for us all to get baptised then He would not have to go through the pain and suffering and shed His BLOOD as a sacrifice.
Through the CROSS we are saved. That is the only way - FAITH in the Lord Jesus Christ.
Simple question.
If it was that simple for us all to get baptised then He would not have to go through the pain and suffering and shed His BLOOD as a sacrifice.
Through the CROSS we are saved. That is the only way - FAITH in the Lord Jesus Christ.
E
Ok I can see my mistake on how I wrote a response. Let me try this again.
Do not rely on your conscience for Bible interpretation. We can only rely on the Holy Spirit for understanding. Our conscience has an ability to betray us one certain Biblical subjects. Be cause we may think "surely God doesn't mean such and such" we could come to a wrong conclusion because we are already thinking God "couldn't possibly mean this".
Again let me put a couple passages before you...Proverbs 3:5,6 and Philppians 4:6,7. Through prayer and guidance by the Holy Spirit we can understand God's Word.
Do not rely on your conscience for Bible interpretation. We can only rely on the Holy Spirit for understanding. Our conscience has an ability to betray us one certain Biblical subjects. Be cause we may think "surely God doesn't mean such and such" we could come to a wrong conclusion because we are already thinking God "couldn't possibly mean this".
Again let me put a couple passages before you...Proverbs 3:5,6 and Philppians 4:6,7. Through prayer and guidance by the Holy Spirit we can understand God's Word.
E
Yes I agree with this because there were obviously arguments about who baptized them. They, during this time, we're looking at who baptized but not who they were baptized for.
Now comes the argument of...does our baptism by water save us? No! Baptism by water does not effect our salvation. As JesusLives said a couple posts ago....Once we give our lives to Jesus, by grace through faith, we are not then given a "check list" of things we "must do" to keep or advance our salvation.
Romans 10:9 "that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved."
Notice in Matthew 9:1-8 when Jesus tell the paralytic man "your sins are forgiven" he doesn't then tell him to go get baptized. If baptism were part of saving grace then do you not think Jesus would have told him to get baptized by water? In verse 2 we are told "Jesus saw their faith".
Now comes the argument of...does our baptism by water save us? No! Baptism by water does not effect our salvation. As JesusLives said a couple posts ago....Once we give our lives to Jesus, by grace through faith, we are not then given a "check list" of things we "must do" to keep or advance our salvation.
Romans 10:9 "that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved."
Notice in Matthew 9:1-8 when Jesus tell the paralytic man "your sins are forgiven" he doesn't then tell him to go get baptized. If baptism were part of saving grace then do you not think Jesus would have told him to get baptized by water? In verse 2 we are told "Jesus saw their faith".
notice you take one verse from a synopsis to make a conclusion...next verse....[SUP]10 [/SUP]For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
why not take vs 13...it is much easier....[SUP]13 [/SUP]For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
no need to believe..... no need for confession....just call his name..and you will be saved...Go now make a whole new religion with just this one verse....
and keep on ignoring the rest of scripture..
[SUP]14 [/SUP]How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
[SUP]15 [/SUP]And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
[SUP]16 [/SUP]But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
[SUP]17 [/SUP]So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Jesus saved a thief on the cross...does that mean we can all be thieves and and murderers and when we are caught confess him as Lord before we are executed?...the reason we hold to acts 2:38-39 is because ...we ask the same question when we hear the word....what shall we do?...and more so the response...in that response Peter states it is a promise ......
[SUP]38 [/SUP]Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
[SUP]39 [/SUP]For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
do these things and you will receive this thing......I believe the promise....
why not take vs 13...it is much easier....[SUP]13 [/SUP]For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
no need to believe..... no need for confession....just call his name..and you will be saved...Go now make a whole new religion with just this one verse....
and keep on ignoring the rest of scripture..
[SUP]14 [/SUP]How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
[SUP]15 [/SUP]And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
[SUP]16 [/SUP]But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
[SUP]17 [/SUP]So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Jesus saved a thief on the cross...does that mean we can all be thieves and and murderers and when we are caught confess him as Lord before we are executed?...the reason we hold to acts 2:38-39 is because ...we ask the same question when we hear the word....what shall we do?...and more so the response...in that response Peter states it is a promise ......
[SUP]38 [/SUP]Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
[SUP]39 [/SUP]For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
do these things and you will receive this thing......I believe the promise....
Look I understand your argument, but how do you explain my case. I was baptized LONG before I was ever truly saved, and now that I am saved I have yet to be baptized again yet. So....? I was baptized and was NOT saved, and now I AM saved without being baptized again. So did the first one count as a credit? Did it just kick in once my pride was crushed and I was truly ready inside to submit my will to His? Sorry but I KNOW for a FACT it is not necessary for salvation, unless of course God works on credit in which case you may still be on to something. How would you explain my situation?
brother I don't know what you believed when you were baptised....I don't know what you were taught....what I do know is ...the goodness of God leads us to repentance...the scripture teaches ...repent and be baptised unto the remission of sins...and you shall receive the gift of the HS...repentance is not remission of sins....we are baptised into Christ and our sins are remitted and we are gifted with the HS....it is a promise recorded in Acts 2:38-39....
E
Um I actually read all of Romans 10 but yeah only quoted one verse as it made my point pretty clear.
And if baptism saves us as you say then why are there people who have been baptized but are no way Christian (shown by how they act)? They say they have faith in God get baptized then continue in sin. Doesn't make sense according to your view. Jims argument is a good example of how it's not the baptism but the faith.
And if baptism saves us as you say then why are there people who have been baptized but are no way Christian (shown by how they act)? They say they have faith in God get baptized then continue in sin. Doesn't make sense according to your view. Jims argument is a good example of how it's not the baptism but the faith.
Is Apostle Paul as a single person able to baptize everyone? Aren't there are other Apostles and leaders and disciples and believers of a church, baptize new believers to come in? Didn't Apostle Paul minister in other established churches by them and discovered or reported in one in Corinth, there are division among believers of the Faith? Isn't the Gospel is one message put together in one spiritual knowledge for all believers to be united in one understanding?
And yet there were division among the believers in Corinth because of their mentors or 'self/carnal/flesh/babes in CHRIST' behavior believers, who have not come to the knowledge of the truth like you.
But Apostle Paul did testify that he did baptize those who came to him.
Sorry that i am called to remind you and stir up you memory that you are truly not dcontroversal but controversal to the HOLY BIBLE's New Testament sound doctrine and a weak witness of the Kingdom of GOD in Spiritual knowledge of spirit and life, to the lambs/babes of CHRIST of GOD, to be deceived in partial truth and enjoy divisions among the sheep.
"If you have ears, listen and pay attention." (to the HOLY SPIRIT, the anointing placed in us, who inspired and is the Teacher of the HOLY BIBLE, according to the New Covenant, that GOD made with us all Christian, by the pouring of the Blood of HIS SON)
And yet there were division among the believers in Corinth because of their mentors or 'self/carnal/flesh/babes in CHRIST' behavior believers, who have not come to the knowledge of the truth like you.
But Apostle Paul did testify that he did baptize those who came to him.
Sorry that i am called to remind you and stir up you memory that you are truly not dcontroversal but controversal to the HOLY BIBLE's New Testament sound doctrine and a weak witness of the Kingdom of GOD in Spiritual knowledge of spirit and life, to the lambs/babes of CHRIST of GOD, to be deceived in partial truth and enjoy divisions among the sheep.
"If you have ears, listen and pay attention." (to the HOLY SPIRIT, the anointing placed in us, who inspired and is the Teacher of the HOLY BIBLE, according to the New Covenant, that GOD made with us all Christian, by the pouring of the Blood of HIS SON)
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that is what the scripture declares...it is not my view or opinion....you don't like it because people do what they do...people say they have faith don't get baptised and continue in sin...does that make sense to you? let me show you what will make sense to you....its about faith so remove baptism that only gets you wet...so we have repent and believe...next we remove repent because you can believe without repentance....so that leaves you with faith only ...believe on the lord and you shall be saved...makes perfect sense.....that is what you teach ...is it not?