The MOST CONTROVERSIAL STATEMENT MADE

[elf3]

Every time one of you use this scripture to say baptism (or any other command) is not necessary that "faith only" is all that is needed :

Ephesians 2:8-9 (NKJV)
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

you lift this text out of context to try and say baptism is not required, the works in this text is the "Mosaic Law"

With the scripture you used for justification of Abram :

(Rom 4:2 [NKJV])
For if Abraham was justified by works, he has [something] to boast about, but not before God.

the works here is the "Mosaic Law", if (like the Jews Paul was dealing with) if Abraham could be justified by the "Mosaic Law" (works) then he would have something to boast about, he would not need Christ, he would live "perfect" like our Lord, that WOULD be something to boast about, but Abraham or you or me or anyone else could not keep the Law.

You lift scripture out of context at any cost to try and make other scripture void (like Mark 16:16).

You said we are justified the same way Abraham was, that is not entirely correct, Abraham was justified by "faith" through "obedience" to "God", TODAY we are justified by "faith" through "obedience" to "Christ" (and Christ said "be baptized" he commanded it) and ALL AUTHORITY EVEN GODS IS GIVEN TO THE SON IN HEAVEN AND ON EARTH.

This means baptism is a command, repentance is a command, confession before men is a command, none of which have any use without belief (another command).

ALL His commands must be done, we are told baptism is for remittance of sin, yet you still imply it is not required yet no other way is sin remitted, baptism is a representation of our Lords death, burial and resurrection, when we are baptized we come up out of the watery grave sinless by spiritual contact and washing of the blood.

There is one baptism Eph 4:5, the commission commanded by our Lord was given to the disciples, John the baptizer tells us the disciples (including himself) could ONLY baptize by water.

Jesus did not tell the disciples "Go throughout the world and I will make disciples by baptizing them" indicating HS baptism, NO, he SAID, "Go throughout the whole world making disciples" (note he told disciples to make disciples) "teaching them to observe all things I have commanded you" :

Matthew 28:19-20 (NKJV) [SUP]19 [/SUP] Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, [SUP]20 [/SUP] teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen.

Yeah ok I take Scripture out of context? Funny how I showed Scripture, more than one passage, that shows justification by faith. You have shown Mark 16:16 where it says by baptism you are saved. Weigh the balance. Have you shown any that says justification by baptism? Nope. Yet you still argue for justification by baptism.

 

[elf3]

God will know if I sin or not...and he is faithful to cleanse me...
are you saying ...our sins were never remitted... ? are you saying if we walk in the light the blood of Jesus does not cleanse us from all sins,,? are you saying if we confess our sins God is not faithful to forgive us? if believing the word of God makes me a hypocrite then so be it...

Wow twisting of words.

I actually asked if you feel you are now sinless because of Christ. Can you answer the question?

 

[elf3]

I'm done for the night. Good night.

 

[Jabberjaw]

It is confusing brother,

Not by law but by obedience. Is that obedience not include in the law?

I believe Abraham follow or obedience the very foundation of the law/rule. Have the will to have faith/entrust himself to the Lord.

Is that mean he always perfectly entrust himself to the Lord? He have the will but some time fall. For example the Lord said not to lie, but When he think he is in danger when the powerful king love his pretty wife, instead of trust to His protection, he make his own calculation and lie.

Not perfect and fall, but have the will to entrust to the Lord. That consider save.

Yes it is confusing, but it should not be, we do that to ourselves, the Patriarchs had Law (Even Adam and Eve were under law) when we are commanded to do something we must obey, a command and a law are the same, we have always been (and still are) under law, but what law(s) we follow is the problem.

The Jews were under the Mosaic Law, if they could keep it perfectly they could "earn" their salvation, this was not able to be done by mortal men, and why we needed a Christ.

Hebrews 7:11-12 (NKJV)
11 Therefore, if perfection were through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), what further need was there that another priest should rise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be called according to the order of Aaron? 12 For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law.

When the Law changed, what we "obey" changed, we now must obey ALL of the Lords commands (Law of Christ), not mix with the Mosaic as Paul tried to keep the Jews from doing.

 

[Jabberjaw]

Yeah ok I take Scripture out of context? Funny how I showed Scripture, more than one passage, that shows justification by faith. You have shown Mark 16:16 where it says by baptism you are saved. Weigh the balance. Have you shown any that says justification by baptism? Nope. Yet you still argue for justification by baptism.

You see? with your theology part of the bible is right and to be followed and other parts not (like Mark 16:16)

proper exegesis will allow for the entire word of God to be true and no contradiction. Mark 16:16 is just as much a law as any other one you can come up with in the N.T.

 

[pastac]

Well, no offence, but instead of making comments like this how about post some scripture and contend for the faith that has once been delivered unto the saints and as long as men who teach heretical dogma continue to post I will continue to defend the word of God down to the last (bullet)......Just think how well it would have been for (OUR) brothers had they just given up at Khe Sanh? Really.........................!

Why waist time posting scripture you already posted? No new scripture to post! No new thing to say? Just a repeat of the same old stuff over and over! You're proving what and to who. Nothing has changed not one position. So if this be your fight and you choose this fight so be it.
I'm just saying its not having the affect you think!No offense taken. Contending with the faith or for the faith is not to make a mockery of it. this is turning into a baseless pointless nothingness thread about water!!!! Really............

 

[pastac]

I agree with you brother. Our obligation to preach the gospel patiently. Faith come by hearing. If no body sound off, than no body hear. They will hear from false doctrine instead than have a false faith.

pointless debates will always be pointless. Jesus doesn't need us to prove his word his word proves us!!!! This is just more proof of emotion driven vs wisdom driven. How many debates was Jesus in and for how long???

 

[pastac]

I want you to name one person, besides Jesus, who was sinless. And Jesus says "go and sin no more"...name one person who was able to accomplish that.

Yeah we are still sinners but the difference is that sin no longer controls us because we are now in Christ.

God was/is sinless
The Holy Spirit was/is sinless
that's two more other than Jesus just for reference

 

[newbirth]

Funny because you keep bringing it up as if I said that.

We are justified by faith only. Not by baptism not by good works. How about you read the passages I posted instead of keep saying we are justified by works or baptism. Only through the blood of Christ are we justified, redeemed or reconciled to God. James is only talking about our faith being shown by our works not justified before God.

And if you elude to me saying otherwise you are only showing your own ignorance to what others say. And yes you sure have eluded to me, Dcon and others saying that.

[SUP]17 [/SUP](Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.) this is what James says......this is what you say...

We are justified by faith only. Not by baptism not by good works.

who do I believe you or James.....
[SUP]
21 [/SUP]Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

[SUP]22 [/SUP]Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

It does not matter what Dcon or others say ...it is what the scripture says...

 

[newbirth]

It is confusing brother,

Not by law but by obedience. Is that obedience not include in the law?

I believe Abraham follow or obedience the very foundation of the law/rule. Have the will to have faith/entrust himself to the Lord.

Is that mean he always perfectly entrust himself to the Lord? He have the will but some time fall. For example the Lord said not to lie, but When he think he is in danger when the powerful king love his pretty wife, instead of trust to His protection, he make his own calculation and lie.

Not perfect and fall, but have the will to entrust to the Lord. That consider save.

you call Abraham a liar?...

Genesis 20:11-13King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]11 [/SUP]And Abraham said, Because I thought, Surely the fear of God is not in this place; and they will slay me for my wife's sake.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]And yet indeed she is my sister; she is the daughter of my father, but not the daughter of my mother; and she became my wife.

[SUP]13 [/SUP]And it came to pass, when God caused me to wander from my father's house, that I said unto her, This is thy kindness which thou shalt shew unto me; at every place whither we shall come, say of me, He is my brother.