The MOST CONTROVERSIAL STATEMENT MADE

[Bride]

Regarding this thread topic....
As there is no controversy in the scriptures about baptism, and as personal opinions mean nothing, I'm not sure what more is to be said on this thread. But here is a summation of a wholesome spirit toward baptism. No opinions necessary, as this picture is worth a thousand words...

(Act 8:35)
Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.
(Act 8:36)
And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
(Act 8:37)
And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
(Act 8:38)
And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.

 

[newbirth]

Regarding this thread topic....
As there is no controversy in the scriptures about baptism, and as personal opinions mean nothing, I'm not sure what more is to be said on this thread. But here is a summation of a wholesome spirit toward baptism. No opinions necessary, as this picture is worth a thousand words...

(Act 8:35)
Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.
(Act 8:36)
And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
(Act 8:37)
And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
(Act 8:38)
And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.

out of everything that was preached to the eunuch ...he was most adamant about baptism... what doth hinder me to be baptized?..... If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest.....not because it is an outward show of something that happen inwardly.....but if you believe with all your heart....some want to believe and not be baptised....because they say it is not necessary...what did Philip say to that man to make him think baptism was necessary???....you painted a beautiful picture.....

 

[dcontroversal]

out of everything that was preached to the eunuch ...he was most adamant about baptism... what doth hinder me to be baptized?..... If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest.....not because it is an outward show of something that happen inwardly.....but if you believe with all your heart....some want to believe and not be baptised....because they say it is not necessary...what did Philip say to that man to make him think baptism was necessary???....you painted a beautiful picture.....

Exactly who has said that......cut and paste quote

 

[newbirth]

Exactly who has said that......cut and paste quote

said what....????that baptism is not necessary?? just check the OP

 

[Delivery]

Then explain Peter's comment that "baptism...now saves us."

3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Here Peter is already answering your question when he said, "Not the putting away of the filth of the flesh". Which can be interpreted as not the washing yourself in water. because that's what water is for, washing the dirt from your physical body. people who try to push this baptism doctrine always use verses that have the word baptism in them to justify their stance. But we have to remember that a lot of times it's actually talking about baptism of the Holy spirit, not water baptism. So then Peter says, "but the answer of a good conscience toward God." The baptism of the Holy spirit is what cleanses your heart and mind and conscience of evil thoughts and sins and makes you a new creature in Christ Jesus. II Corinthians 5:17. Not water baptism.

So when Jesus said, He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
He was talking about baptism of the Holy Spirit, not water baptism.

 

[Bride]

3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Here Peter is already answering your question when he said, "Not the putting away of the filth of the flesh". Which can be interpreted as not the washing yourself in water. because that's what water is for, washing the dirt from your physical body. people who try to push this baptism doctrine always use verses that have the word baptism in them to justify their stance. But we have to remember that a lot of times it's actually talking about baptism of the Holy spirit, not water baptism. So then Peter says, "but the answer of a good conscience toward God." The baptism of the Holy spirit is what cleanses your heart and mind and conscience of evil thoughts and sins and makes you a new creature in Christ Jesus. II Corinthians 5:17. Not water baptism.

So when Jesus said, He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
He was talking about baptism of the Holy Spirit, not water baptism.

I've never heard that opinion before. Discounting water baptism, saying it "means" baptism of the Holy Spirit, as though the two aren't one and the same in Spiritual Rebirth. Very strange. Very false too. Especially when it has already been established what baptism is...

(Act 8:35)
Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.
(Act 8:36)
And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
(Act 8:37)
And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
(Act 8:38)
And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.

No, sorry, I must agree with what scriptures says, end of story

 

[Delivery]

One other point I'd like to make here is that water baptism is not necessarily a bad thing. Nobody is saying that it's wrong to be baptized in water. After all Paul did baptize a few people and Phillip did baptize the eunuch, etc. But there is not a single verse in the whole new testament that says the water baptism is necessary for Salvation. I'm in total agreement with the OP that if water baptism were a necessity in order to be saved, then one would think he would have went around baptizing every single person he ever witnessed to. This is obviously not the case in Paul's own woeds:

1:13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

1:14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;

1:15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.

1:16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.

1:17 For Christ sent me NOT to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

The fact that a few people were baptized with water by the apostles and other disciples is not evidence that water baptism is necessary for Salvation. There is zero evidence that they baptized everybody who ever got saved. Which would have been the case if it was necessary for Salvation.

 

[Delivery]

I've never heard that opinion before. Discounting water baptism, saying it "means" baptism of the Holy Spirit, as though the two aren't one and the same in Spiritual Rebirth. Very strange. Very false too. Especially when it has already been established what baptism is...

(Act 8:35)
Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.
(Act 8:36)
And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
(Act 8:37)
And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
(Act 8:38)
And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.

No, sorry, I must agree with what scriptures says, end of story

What is false here is your statement that water baptism and baptism of the Holy spirit are one and the same.

3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

1:8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.

3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:

3:17 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable.

1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

These verses make a clear distinction between being baptized with water and recieving the baptism of the Holy Ghost which Jesus gives to every one who believes in Him and becomes born again, a new creature in Christ Jesus.

And those verses you quoted about Phillip baptizing the eunuch do not prove that baptism is necessary for Salvation. They only prove that Phillip baptized the enuch.

 

[dcontroversal]

said what....????that baptism is not necessary?? just check the OP

I think you should check as no one has said that they want to believe and NOT be immersed...so I suggest you check again and put your glasses on and read real slow!

 

[dcontroversal]

One other point I'd like to make here is that water baptism is not necessarily a bad thing. Nobody is saying that it's wrong to be baptized in water. After all Paul did baptize a few people and Phillip did baptize the eunuch, etc. But there is not a single verse in the whole new testament that says the water baptism is necessary for Salvation. I'm in total agreement with the OP that if water baptism were a necessity in order to be saved, then one would think he would have went around baptizing every single person he ever witnessed to. This is obviously not the case in Paul's own woeds:

1:13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

1:14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;

1:15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.

1:16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.

1:17 For Christ sent me NOT to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

The fact that a few people were baptized with water by the apostles and other disciples is not evidence that water baptism is necessary for Salvation. There is zero evidence that they baptized everybody who ever got saved. Which would have been the case if it was necessary for Salvation.

Totally agree with this for sure and AMEN.....!

 

[TruthFromFrank]

Baptism, like many other subjects are controversial subjects as there are many different teachings around this subject.


As far as I am concerned, there are two baptisms and should also be in the following order.

The first one is the baptism of the Holy Spirit. This baptism will only take place when the person has totally accepted Jesus Christ in his life and has been re-born, after he has made the choice to change his sinful life to being a better person with Jesus Christ. It is at this point where the person will be baptized with the Holy Spirit, when he will receive one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit ie. the power of Healing, Teaching, Speaking in Tongues etc. The gift that he will receive will be one that he would be best in in the area he will be moving in.


The second baptism is that process of going through the water. This represents the washing off of all the old sins and a new clean person will raise from the water. The baptism symbolizes the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, as Jesus took all the sins of the world on His shoulders on the cross and took it to the grave and when He was resurrected by God, all the sins were left in the grave and He had a new re-born body, cleansed from all sins. As Jesus’ body was totally in the grave and He only went into the grave once, so must the baptism of water be, totally immersed and only once.


This is the total picture on baptism.


Here are just a few facts:-


The Sprinkling or Pouring of water is not Baptism. That is a man-made ritual that was brought into the church for convenience/circumstantial purposes.


The so-called baptism of babies’ process means absolutely nothing and is a non-biblical ritual.


Baptism should only take place after a person made a choice to become a child of Jesus Christ, which means that he has reached an adult age. Babies cannot make such a choice yet, thus my statement above.


Baptism with water alone will not provide Salvation.


Texts you may use for your study. 1 Pet 3:21, Rom 6:3-4, Col 2:12, Mat 3:16, Act 2:38, Eph 4:5,

Joh 3:5, 1 Cor 7-11

 

[newbirth]

What is false here is your statement that water baptism and baptism of the Holy spirit are one and the same.

3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

1:8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.

3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:

3:17 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable.

1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

These verses make a clear distinction between being baptized with water and recieving the baptism of the Holy Ghost which Jesus gives to every one who believes in Him and becomes born again, a new creature in Christ Jesus.

your point is taken as per act 2: 38-41.....
[SUP]38 [/SUP]And Peter said unto them, Repent ye, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ unto the remission of your sins; and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
[SUP]39 [/SUP]For to you is the promise, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call unto him.
[SUP]40 [/SUP]And with many other words he testified, and exhorted them, saying, Save yourselves from this crooked generation.
[SUP]41 [/SUP]They then that received his word were baptized: and there were added unto them in that day about three thousand souls.


which aligns with...
John 3:5
New King James Version
Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

And those verses you quoted about Phillip baptizing the eunuch do not prove that baptism is necessary for Salvation. They only prove that Phillip baptized the enuch.

this verse aligns with Mk 16:15-16
Mark 16:15-16King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP]And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

it is strange to think that Philip baptising the eunuch is not proof that baptism is necessary for salvation...when that was the highlight of the episode....the only question the eunuch asked was about baptism.....and when that was done Philip was caught away by the Lord......

Acts 8:35-40King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]35 [/SUP]Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.
[SUP]36 [/SUP]And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
[SUP]37 [/SUP]And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
[SUP]38 [/SUP]And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.
[SUP]39 [/SUP]And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.
[SUP]40 [/SUP]But Philip was found at Azotus: and passing through he preached in all the cities, till he came to Caesarea.




the scripture is clear...
[SUP]41 [/SUP]They then that received his word were baptized: and there were added unto them in that day about three thousand souls.

 

[newbirth]

I think you should check as no one has said that they want to believe and NOT be immersed...so I suggest you check again and put your glasses on and read real slow!

then you cannot believe and be baptised and still believe baptism is not necessary for salvation...

[SUP]16 [/SUP]He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

[SUP]41 [/SUP]They then that received his word were baptized: and there were added unto them in that day about three thousand souls.

[SUP]36 [/SUP]And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?

[SUP]37 [/SUP]And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

[SUP]38 [/SUP]And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.

I don't see a show here what I see is those who believe are baptised...according to the word which they believe...those who do not believe the word will not be baptised because they think it is not necessary for salvation... but it is only for a show...

 

[newbirth]

One other point I'd like to make here is that water baptism is not necessarily a bad thing. Nobody is saying that it's wrong to be baptized in water. After all Paul did baptize a few people and Phillip did baptize the eunuch, etc. But there is not a single verse in the whole new testament that says the water baptism is necessary for Salvation. I'm in total agreement with the OP that if water baptism were a necessity in order to be saved, then one would think he would have went around baptizing every single person he ever witnessed to. This is obviously not the case in Paul's own woeds:

1:13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

1:14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;

1:15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.

1:16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.

1:17 For Christ sent me NOT to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

The fact that a few people were baptized with water by the apostles and other disciples is not evidence that water baptism is necessary for Salvation. There is zero evidence that they baptized everybody who ever got saved. Which would have been the case if it was necessary for Salvation.

then you misunderstand the word...one does not go around preaching baptism...it is the gospel that is preached...those who believe the gospel are baptised...Did Philip preach ...go and get baptised? No ...he preached the gospel....the eunuch believed and said look there is water, what hinders me from being baptised.....why would he ask such a question...it is because he understood baptism is the entrance into the kingdom...not because he wanted a show....else Philip would not have said...
[SUP]37 [/SUP]And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

 

[dcontroversal]

What is false here is your statement that water baptism and baptism of the Holy spirit are one and the same.

3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

1:8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.

3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:

3:17 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable.

1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

These verses make a clear distinction between being baptized with water and recieving the baptism of the Holy Ghost which Jesus gives to every one who believes in Him and becomes born again, a new creature in Christ Jesus.

And those verses you quoted about Phillip baptizing the eunuch do not prove that baptism is necessary for Salvation. They only prove that Phillip baptized the enuch.

No doubt and I agree...verses used out of context in an attempt to prove baptismal regeneration runs rampant! Funny as my bible clearly teaches that it is an ordinance of the Lord's churches and is the PUBLIC testimony of the inward saving faith that has already saved you....going to be quite a few people who will end up cooking because they trusted into a watery blood that cannot save because of it being a gospel of a different kind for sure!

When I see the BLOOD I will pass over you.......NOTHING about water and works mixed in with that!

 

[dcontroversal]

then you misunderstand the word...one does not go around preaching baptism...it is the gospel that is preached...those who believe the gospel are baptised...Did Philip preach ...go and get baptised? No ...he preached the gospel....the eunuch believed and said look there is water, what hinders me from being baptised.....why would he ask such a question...it is because he understood baptism is the entrance into the kingdom...not because he wanted a show....else Philip would not have said...
[SUP]37 [/SUP]And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

He didn't understand anything as he needed someone to EXPLAIN......Baptism being the FIRST act of obedience and a PICTURE of the FAITH that the Eunuch had.....and HIS belief in the SON of GOD is what saved him.......!

 

[newbirth]

He didn't understand anything as he needed someone to EXPLAIN......Baptism being the FIRST act of obedience and a PICTURE of the FAITH that the Eunuch had.....and HIS belief in the SON of GOD is what saved him.......!

so you are saying his act of obedience is proof that he believed and is saved...and if he did not obey it is proof also that he did not believe...and therefore not saved...so his action is tied in with his belief as in faith with works...as opposed to no action...which is faith without works...making the action necessary for salvation....

 

[dcontroversal]

so you are saying his act of obedience is proof that he believed and is saved...and if he did not obey it is proof also that he did not believe...and therefore not saved...so his action is tied in with his belief as in faith with works...as opposed to no action...which is faith without works...making the action necessary for salvation....

What scripture was he reading and needed to understand......What book was he considering....? Philip had to explain to him the passages OUT OF ISAIAH.....and WHAT IT MEANT and WHY.....HE BELIEVED that JESUS was and is the SON of GOD and that is what SAVED him....the IMMERSION was the OUTWARD evidence of the inward SAVING FAITH and STATES to ALL that HE accepted what PHILIP taught about JESUS....JUST as circumcision was the OUTWARD EVIDENCE that pointed to the INWARD FAITH that ABRAHAM HAD BEFORE circumcision.....and blending JAMES will not change a thing.....!

Again you fail to understand that the WORK is the EVIDENCE of the FAITH that is ALREADY present....

Thy FAITH has saved thee
Thy FAITH has made the whole
WHOSOEVER BELIEVES IS HAVING EVERLASTING LIFE
BELIEVE and THOU SHALT BE SAVED

NOW FAITH is the substance (evidence, confidence) of things HOPED FOR, THE EVIDENCE of things NOT SEEN!

 

[newbirth]

What scripture was he reading and needed to understand......What book was he considering....? Philip had to explain to him the passages OUT OF ISAIAH.....and WHAT IT MEANT and WHY.....HE BELIEVED that JESUS was and is the SON of GOD and that is what SAVED him....the IMMERSION was the OUTWARD evidence of the inward SAVING FAITH and STATES to ALL that HE accepted what PHILIP taught about JESUS....JUST as circumcision was the OUTWARD EVIDENCE that pointed to the INWARD FAITH that ABRAHAM HAD BEFORE circumcision.....and blending JAMES will not change a thing.....!

Again you fail to understand that the WORK is the EVIDENCE of the FAITH that is ALREADY present....

Thy FAITH has saved thee
Thy FAITH has made the whole
WHOSOEVER BELIEVES IS HAVING EVERLASTING LIFE
BELIEVE and THOU SHALT BE SAVED

NOW FAITH is the substance (evidence, confidence) of things HOPED FOR, THE EVIDENCE of things NOT SEEN!

you have not addressed one line of the comment I made.....

so you are saying his act of obedience is proof that he believed and is saved.....yes or no

and if he did not obey it is proof also that he did not believe...and therefore not saved......yes or no....

so his action is tied in with his belief as in faith with works.........yes or no...

.as opposed to no action...which is faith without works.....yes or no...

.making the action necessary for salvation....yes or no

which is in response to your quote...

He didn't understand anything as he needed someone to EXPLAIN......Baptism being the FIRST act of obedience and a PICTURE of the FAITH that the Eunuch had.....and HIS belief in the SON of GOD is what saved him.......!

 

[newbirth]

No doubt and I agree...verses used out of context in an attempt to prove baptismal regeneration runs rampant! Funny as my bible clearly teaches that it is an ordinance of the Lord's churches and is the PUBLIC testimony of the inward saving faith that has already saved you....going to be quite a few people who will end up cooking because they trusted into a watery blood that cannot save because of it being a gospel of a different kind for sure!

When I see the BLOOD I will pass over you.......NOTHING about water and works mixed in with that!

where does your bible teach this....

Funny as my bible clearly teaches that it is an ordinance of the Lord's churches and is the PUBLIC testimony of the inward saving faith that has already saved you.