THE PRE-TRIB RAPTURE DOES NOT FIT LAST DAYS PROPHECY ABOUT NOAH

EarnestQ · Aug 14, 2016

[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]PART FOUR[/FONT]

[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]How well then, is the post-tribulation position represented in church history?[/FONT]

[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]Justin Martyr[/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif](c. 150 A.D.) O unreasoning men! understanding not what has been proved by all these passages, that two advents of Christ have been announced: the one, in which He is set forth as suffering, inglorious, dishonored, and crucified; but the other, in which He shall come from heaven with glory, when the man of apostasy, who speaks strange things against the Most High, shall venture to do unlawful deeds on the earth against us the Christians. [Bell, p 33-34 - Justin Martyr, "Dialog with Trypho," The Ante-Nicene Fathers, I, 253-54][/FONT]

[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]Irenaeus[/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif](Late 2nd Cen.) And he [Anti-Christ] shall speak words against the most high God, and wear out the saints of the most high God, and shall purpose to change times and laws; and (everything) shall be given into his hand until a time of times and a half time, that is, for three years and six months, during which time, when he comes, he shall reign over the earth. Of whom also the Apostle Paul again, speaking in the second (Epistle) of the Thessalonians, and at the same time proclaiming the cause of his advent, thus says: "And then shall the wicked one be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus shall slay with the spirit of His mouth, and destroy by the presence of His coming."[/FONT]

[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]For all these and other words were unquestionably spoken in reference to the resurrection of the just, which takes place after the coming of Antichrist, and the destruction of all nations under his rule; in (the time of) which (resurrection) the righteous shall reign in the earth, waxing stronger by the sight of the Lord: and through Him they shall become accustomed to partake in the glory of God the Father, and shall enjoy in the kingdom intercourse and communion with the holy angels, and union with spiritual beings; and (with respect to) those whom the Lord shall find in the flesh, awaiting Him from heaven, and who have suffered tribulation, as well as escaped the hands of the Wicked One. [Bell, p 34 - Irenaeus, "Against Heresies," ANF, I, 554, 565][/FONT]

[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]And they [the ten kings] shall...give their kingdom to the beast, and put the Church to flight" (Against Heresies V, 26, 1) [Gundry, p.175] [/FONT]

[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]But he [John] indicates the number of the name [Antichrist, 666] now, that when this man comes we may avoid him, being aware who he is(Against Heresies V, 30, 4) [Gundry, p.175][/FONT]

[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]Irenaeus was a disciple of Polycarp [This may not be accurate.] who was a disciple of the Apostle John. John wrote far more about the Lord's return in the New Testament than did all other writers combined. It's safe to assume that the apostle John had a pretty clear understanding of orthodox teaching on the return of Christ and that Polycarp and Irenaeus would have had a better idea than anyone else of what John taught. One might wonder if charges from Walvoord about Irenaeus being clouded, immature, or heretical should raise more questions about Walvoord's teaching than that of Irenaeus.[/FONT]

[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]Tertullian[/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif](c. 200 A.D.) ... In the Revelation of John, again, the order of these times is spread out to view... that the beast Antichrist with his false prophet may wage war on the Church of God. ...[/FONT]

[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]"For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven, if so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked;" which means, before we put off the garment of the flesh, we wish to be clothed with the celestial glory of immortality. Now the privilege of this favour awaits those who shall at the coming of the Lord be found in the flesh, and who shall, owing to the oppressions of the time of Antichrist, deserve by an instantaneous death, which is accomplished by a sudden change, to become qualified to join the rising saints. [Bell, p 35 - Tert. "On the Resurrection of the Flesh," ANF, III, 563][/FONT]

[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]That the beast Antichrist with his false prophet may wage war in the Church of God.... Since, then, the Scriptures both indicate the stages of the last times, and concentrate the harvest of the Christian hope in the very end of the world..."(On the Resurrection of the Flesh xxv; cf, Scorpiace xii) [Gundry, p.177] [/FONT]

[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]Hippolytus[/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif](early 3rd Cen.) It is proper that we take the Holy Scriptures themselves in hand, and find out from them what, and of what manner, the coming of Antichrist is; on what occasion and at what time the impious one shall be revealed; and whence and from what tribe (he shall come); and what his name is, which is indicated by the number in the Scripture; and how he shall work error among the people, gathering them from the ends of the earth; and (how) he shall stir up tribulation and persecution against the saints; and how he shall glorify himself as God; and what his end shall be; and how the sudden appearing of the Lord shall be revealed from heaven; and what the conflagration of the whole world shall be; and what the glorious and heavenly kingdom of the saints is to be, when they reign together with Christ; and what the punishment of the wicked by fire. [Bell, p 35-36 - Hip.,"Treatise on Christ and Antichrist," ANF, v, 205][/FONT]

[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]Now concerning the tribulation of the persecution which is to fall upon the Church from the adversary [he has been speaking of the Antichrist and the Antichrist's persecution of the saints and continues in the same vein]...That refers to the one thousand two hundred and threescore days (the half of the week) during which the tyrant is to reign and persecute the Church (Treatise on Christ and Antichrist 60,61). [Gundry, p. 176][/FONT]

[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]Ephriam the Syrian[/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif](306-373) Nothing remains then, except that the coming of our enemy, Antichrist, appear..."(Sermo Asceticus, I) [MacPherson, p.18][/FONT]

[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]Cyril of Jerusalem[/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif](315-386) The Church declares to thee the things concerning Antichrist before they arrive... it is well that, knowing these things, thou shouldest make thyself ready beforehand (Catechetical Lectures, 15,9) [MacPherson, p.18][/FONT]

[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]Augustine[/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif](354-430) But he who reads this passage [Daniel 12] even half asleep, cannot fail to see that the kingdom of Antichrist shall fiercely, though for a short time, assail the Church...(The City of God, XX, 23). [MacPherson, p.19][/FONT]

[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]Bernard of Clairvaux[/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif](1090-1153) There remains only one thing - that the demon of noonday [Antichrist] should appear, to seduce those who remain still in Christ... (Sermons on the Song of Songs, 33, 16). [MacPherson, p.19][/FONT]

[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]John Wycliffe[/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif](1320-1384) Wherefore let us pray to God that he keep us in the hour of temptation, which is coming upon all the world, Rev iii (Writings of the Reverend and Learned John Wickliff, D.D., p. 155) [MacPherson, p.18][/FONT]

[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]Martin Luther[/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif](1483-1546) [The book of Revelation] is intended as a revelation of things that are to happen in the future, and especially of the tribulations and disasters for the Church ... (Works of Martin Luther, VI, p. 481). [MacPherson, p.19-20][/FONT]

[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]John Knox[/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif](1515-1572) ...the great love of God towards his Church, whom he pleased to forewarne of dangers to come, so many yeers before they come to passe ... to wit, The man of sin, The Antichrist, The Whore of Babilon (The Historie of the Reformatioun..., I, p. 76) [MacPherson, p.20][/FONT]

[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]John Foxe[/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif](1516-1587) ... that second beast prophesied to come in the later time of the Church ... to disturb the whole Church of Christ... (Acts and Monuments, I). [MacPherson, p. 20][/FONT]

[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]Daniel Whitby[/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif](1638-1726) ...after the Fall of Antichrist, there shall be such a glorious State of the Church ... so shall this be the Church of Martyrs, and of those who had not received the Mark of the Beast... ("A Paraphrase and Commentary", p. 696) [MacPherson, p. 21][/FONT]

[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]John Newton[/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif](1725-1807) Fear not temptation's fiery day, for I will be thy strength and stay. thou hast my promise, hold it fast, the trying hour [Revelation 3:10] will soon be past ( "The Works of the Rev. John Newton, Vol II, p. 152) [MacPherson, p.22][/FONT]

[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]Oswald J. Smith[/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]... I am absolutely convinced that there will be no rapture before the Tribulation, but that the Church will undoubtedly be called upon to face the Antichrist..." (Tribulation or Rapture - Which?, p. 12) [MacPherson, p.29][/FONT]

[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]Harold J. Ockenga[/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]No exegetical justification exists for the arbitrary separation of the 'coming of Christ' and the 'day of the Lord.' It is one 'day of the Lord Jesus Christ' (Christian Life, February, 1955). [MacPherson, p.31][/FONT]

[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]John R. W. Stott[/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]He would not spare them from the suffering [Revelation 3:10]; but He would uphold them in it" (What Christ Thinks of the Church, p.104). [MacPherson, p.33][/FONT]

[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]Bernard L. Ramm[/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]...as the Church moves to meet her Lord at the parousia world history is also moving to meet its Judge at the same parousia (Leo Eddleman's Last Things, p. 41) [MacPherson, p.33][/FONT]

[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]J. Barton Payne[/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]Hippolytus, for example, foresaw a rather complex series of events which would culminate in the coming of Christ, including a ten-nation confederacy, the appearance of Anti-Christ, and severe persecution of the church. He felt that these events might begin at any time, but Christ's coming itself would thus not be at any moment.[/FONT]

[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]Tertullian, Irenaeus, and Lactantius also foresaw detailed complexes of events, climaxed by Christ's coming and thus could not be classified as believing in immanency." [Bell p50 - from J. Barton Payne, The Imminent Appearing of Christ, p17-18][/FONT]

[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]These are all unquestionably post-tribulational views. Historic Christianity supports the view that the event known by some as the rapture, more accurately titled the Resurrection, Gathering, Harvest, or Translation of the Saints, is to take place at the end of the period commonly referred to as the tribulation. Dispensationalists admit this to be true.[/FONT]

[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]"... it is freely admitted by pretribulationists that no trace of the doctrine is to be found in church history after the Ante- Nicene fathers until the nineteenth century". [Emphasis mine.] [Bell, p27 - from Gerald B. Stanton, "Kept from the Hour", (unpublished doctor's dissertation, Dallas Theological Seminary, 1952 p, 315)][/FONT]

[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]Since pretribulationists admit that the doctrine was unknown during the period following the Ante-Nicene age until "rediscovered" and "refined" by the nineteenth-century Plymouth Brethren, ... it will be unnecessary to survey the intervening period in this study. [Bell p56][/FONT]

[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]The reader is free to disagree with the above however he or she wishes. However, if you wish me to thoughtfully consider your position, please provide documentation to support your position. Please don’t bother to insult me and claim that I am wrong and you are right. That helps neither of us come to a better understanding of the truth. Thank you.[/FONT]

EarnestQ · Aug 14, 2016

I apologize for the different font sizes. It all looked good when I copied it from my original document.

popeye · Aug 14, 2016

EarnestQ said:

You are indeed a postrib rapture adherent.

Apparently since you bolster those dead men's POSITION as fact ,you are seemingly saying you yourself are exempt from producing scripture?

There is not one verse supporting the postrib rapture view.

All those quotes from those dead men you post are basically voided by SCRIPTURE.

I can show them wrong. Each of them,on SEVERAL COUNTS.

Neither they,nor modern man,HAVE ANY VERSES.
NOTHING,NADA,ZIP.

NOT ONE SINGLE VERSE TO SUPPORT THEIR BELIEFS.

I CHALLENGE YOU TO POST ONE VERSE.

No offense,but to me,all those quotes prove that modern man can not prove or defend that erroneous post trib rapture doctrine.

Error is error.
Do you think ALL old error deserves the same consideration?

Btw,pretrib adherants believe Jesus returns after the GT,and saints do suffer the first part of it (those left behind),and the AC is revealed before the rapture.
So,not all postribbers,even address our position accurately.

And the same protocol back to you sir ( show me YOUR DEFENSE factually,using verses,not some dusty quotes,and be respectful)

By all means,do show us one verse. Just one,supporting the accuracy of their beliefs.

popeye · Aug 14, 2016

So many of those old quotes bolster the pretrib position that the church left behind is persecuted and martyred by the AC.

THAT takes a lot of wind out of those sails.

abcdef · Aug 14, 2016

DP said:

Will he be a vaporous mist, like on "GhostBusters"?

Will he be born or what?
========

Matt 24 is about the destruction of Jerusalem and the "times of the gentiles", Lk 21:20-24.

Rev 13:11-17, These Beasts are already shown to be nations, peoples and kings.

2 Thess 2:1-12, The man of sin who is revealed is Caesar,

The falling away happens before the destruction of Jerusalem.

V 8, "Whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth", (the Roman Empire/Seabeast is defeated by the gospel/Bible preaching/sword, R ch 19).

The kingdom consumes the statue Daniel 2:44, "consume all these kingdoms".
-
The Lord Jesus destroys the beast/Antichrist at His coming, but it is not the first beast that is destroyed (Roman Empire), it is the 2nd beast (RCC/Vatican) that is destroyed at his coming, renewed Rome, the Earthbeast, the 8th head of R 17:11.

abcdef · Aug 14, 2016

popeye said:

Brother Popeye,

Please explain 1 Cor 15:23-24, in light of the fact that it says that after Jesus comes, "then comes the end",

But you say no, that it is not the end,

There is another resurrection after Jesus comes. (The one at the end of the 1,000 yrs).

How is it possible to have another resurrection after Jesus comes, when Paul said that it was the end?

EarnestQ · Aug 14, 2016

popeye said:

Give me a few hours. I would like to edit it first and there is a lot to post. It will have to be broken up into sections again.

In the mean time, would you please post all the verses from the Bible that you consider prove the pre-trib rapture?

A little commentation would be welcome, but, as you challenged me, don't include any theologizing by other people, just the verses and what you think they mean.

Thank you.

abcdef · Aug 14, 2016

Brother Popeye,

Now that i think about it,
I guess that I would be a post-trib, post-mill, kind of guy. Do they have a box for that? Ha Ha

I believe that Jesus will come after the trib. But the trib is over (70ad-1967, 2nd half of Daniel ch 2 statue) and Israel is restored to Jerusalem.

The mill (R ch 20) is at it's end. Jesus will return with the fire from heaven, at the 2nd resurrection, when Jerusalem falls to Magog, (Kings of the East R 16:12-16, Iran and it's allies, present day)

This event is unfolding before our eyes!!!! Jesus is coming and the 2nd resurrection is about to happen!

Wake up!!!!

Wake up!!!!

SEE ISRAEL IS RESTORED!!!!

LOOK at what is happening!!!!!

Jerusalem is about to fall to Magog.

THIS IS IT!!!!

When Israel and Jerusalem fall this time,

There will be no "fleeing to the wilderness", as it was in 70ad.

Where will they flee to?

They are surrounded by enemies with no where to go! R 20:9
-------
And you may be thinking,

Mk 13:32, "But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father".

That was true when Jesus spoke it,

But after that in Matt 28:18, after His resurrection He said, "All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth."

So if Jesus had ALL power, he knew the day and hour,

If He still did not know the day at that time, then He would have received only SOME power.
--
Jesus gave us the Revelation, that gives the story of Israel until eternity begins,

His coming is shown at several places from different views. (7th trump & end mill)

He knows the day and He told us in the Rev.
=====

Now I will tell you,

Jesus will come 3 1/2 days after Jerusalem falls to Iran and it's allies.

It's all in the little book/story of the 2 witnesses.
====
Are you thinking the same way that the people of Jesus' time were?

That Elijah will come and bring literal fire from heaven down on his enemies?

The spirit of Elijah in John the Baptist, brought the fire from heaven (Holy Spirit) down from heaven at Jesus' baptism.

The people of Israel today (the 2 witness in Jerusalem) bring the fire (the Holy Spirit) in the OT testimony of Jesus, Jn 5:39),

And their very presence in Jerusalem is a testimony to the promises of Jesus/God, that they are true.
--
Able was killed because his sacrifice was acceptable to God, (Jesus)

Cain killed Able,

Perhaps, he thought that if he killed Able, then God would Have to accept his offering, because Able was dead.

Islam will kill Israel, they believe that it will prove them acceptable to God.

Another prophecy will be fulfilled at that time, R 11:10, The enemies of Israel will rejoice, you will see Islam and Israel haters cheer.

Another prophecy will be fulfilled, their dead bodies will lie in the streets of Jerusalem for 3 1/2 days, R 11:9-12

Then comes the end, when Jesus delivers the finished kingdom up to the Father, after the resurrection.

If we are alive, we will see it. (2 mos., 20 yrs?)

DP · Aug 14, 2016

abcdef said:

Ezekiel 28 points to Satan having been created a beautiful cherub, made the full pattern.

In Gen.1:26-27, God said Let Us create man in OUR image and likeness. The image of man did not originate from Adam, it originated from God and the angels. God calls Satan a man in the Isaiah 14 proverb.

This is why many brethren are going to be deceived by him when he comes. The orthodox Jews will believe he is their Messiah. Islam will believe he is their Mahadi or Messiah. All religions that believe in a some form of a god will believe he is God. That is why Apostle Paul said in 2 Thess.2 that he will exalt himself above all that called... God, or that is worshiped. That's pretty much ever religious belief on earth.

But we, those who belong to Christ Jesus, have been forewarned to not bow to him in thinking he is God, nor take the mark he will setup for all to buy and sell. Per the Book of Daniel, one of things he is to do is make craft prosper in his hand, and destroy many using peace. It will be a short time of world peace over the whole earth, that's what the trib will actually be like.

And because our Lord Jesus showed in Mark 13 about being delivered, He showed how even some of our own household will be our enemies, son turning father in, daughter against mother, etc., just like Nazi Germany.

None of that is pointing to a pope doing those things, but to one whom the Jews would think is their Messiah born of the tribe of Judah.

popeye · Aug 14, 2016

EarnestQ said:

1)1 thes 4
Meet jesus in air and continue. Nothing about a uturn back
2)Times of gentiles complete
3)1st resurrection
4) harvest is 4 parts .From leviticus
5)Mansions in heaven
6)Jesus also promised at last supper,he would not drink of the vine until we were with him.
7) the parable of the virgins is NOT IN A WAR ZONE,plus half are left behind while the wise GO INTO THE MARRIAGE CHAMBER AND THE DOOR IS SHUT. (impossible for this to be a post trib event)
8) the martyrs are told in heaven they are not allowed in the general population,then we see martyrs innumerable BEFORE THE THRONE......why?....because something changed,and that was that their number is completed during the GT.
9) We see 3 harvests in rev 14 DURING THE GT. (that would make a harvest of dead resurrected impossible post trib.)
10) I can go further if you are not convinced.....all this is off the top of my head.(the bride/groom dimension is a clincher)

...and remember Jesus used noah and lot (both were pre judgement dynamics)

EarnestQ · Aug 14, 2016

popeye said:

I would like to ask you to include the verses, please, and explain how that particular verse proves a pre-trib rapture. All your comments were arguments from theology, not explanation of the verses.

Thirty years ago, I was where you are. Then I spent a great deal of time just focusing on the meaning of what each verse said. The more I looked, the more I found that the verses themselves do not show a pre-trib rapture. It is was what I was conditioned to think about the verses that justified a pre-trib rapture.

This is a very difficult conditioning to overcome. By God's grace, He helped me see beyond what I was conditioned to believe about the verses.

I still ask you to include the actual verses, please, and in your own words, explain how that individual verse proves a pre-trib rapture.

Thank you.

EarnestQ · Aug 14, 2016

I am still working on editing all the verses and cutting them down to be more manageable. I may not get them streamlined until tomorrow. (I need to go mow the lawn for a few hours.

)

I look forward to reading the verses you present for your position.

Thank you.

abcdef · Aug 14, 2016

popeye said:

Brother Popeye,

On your number 6,

Matt 26:29, ....."until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom."

His Father's kingdom, is after Jesus delivers the finished kingdom up to the Father in 1 Cor 15:24-25,

v 25 "For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet."

1 Cor 15:26, "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death."

*Most important*, is that this event is shown as taking place in R 20:14-15.

It is at that time, that Christ's kingdom, becomes His Father's kingdom.

So when we "drink it new" with Him, in His Father's kingdom, it will be after death is destroyed.

This would place the event of the kingdom being delivered up to the Father,

and the event that Jesus spoke of on Matt 26:29 (drink it new),

both being after death is destroyed, in His Father's kingdom.

The prophecy of Matt 26:29, cannot take place before death is destroyed.

Ahwatukee · Aug 14, 2016

Hello abcdef,

The above was said when the Lord instituted the breaking of bread and the drinking of the cup in remembrance of Him until we were reunited with Him in His Father's kingdom, which would take place after the following:

"My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am."

In between right now and when Jesus returns to the earth to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom, is the wrath of God. As I and others have said so many times, scripture states that believers are not appointed to suffer God's wrath and that because Jesus rescued us from it and because Jesus said that he would keep us [out of] that hour of trial (1 Thes.1:10, 5:9, Rev.3:10).

Therefore, believers in Christ must be removed prior to the time of God's wrath, which begins with the first seal being opened. This gathering will be in fulfillment of the Lord's promise to come and take us back to the Father's house and is not referring to the millennial kingdom as you suggested and that because it would put all believers through God's wrath. Always keep in mind when considering end time events that the church cannot and will not go through God's wrath, else Christ suffered on our behalf in vain. For it was not just for salvation and eternal life that Christ died for us, but also to rescue those who would be here just prior to the out-pouring of his wrath.

Please show us the scripture that directly supports your claim above regarding death having to be destroyed before we can drink of the fruit of the vine with Christ. Also, the Father's kingdom refers to heaven and not the Father's kingdom on earth. All that you continue to do is misapply scriptures.

abcdef · Aug 14, 2016

Ahwatukee said:

Brother Ahwatukee,

I guess that I'll have to explain it another way, since my post was not understood.

The kingdom belongs to the Father.

But He has given all power to Jesus, Mt 28:18.

Jesus will deliver/give the kingdom up to the Father after the last resurrection and death is destroyed 1 Cor 15:23-28.

Then Jesus subjects Himself to the Father, so that the Father will be all in all, v 28.
---------
Christ's kingdom will be given to the Father, and then it will always be His, as Jesus subjects Himself.

Then it Becomes the Father's kingdom that is spoken of in Matt 26:29.

This is all after death is destroyed,1 Cor 15:23-28

Ahwatukee · Aug 14, 2016

EarnestQ said:

PART FOUR

How well then, is the post-tribulation position represented in church history?

Justin Martyr
(c. 150 A.D.) O unreasoning men! understanding not what has been proved by all these passages, that two advents of Christ have been announced: the one, in which He is set forth as suffering, inglorious, dishonored, and crucified; but the other, in which He shall come from heaven with glory, when the man of apostasy, who speaks strange things against the Most High, shall venture to do unlawful deeds on the earth against us the Christians. [Bell, p 33-34 - Justin Martyr, "Dialog with Trypho," The Ante-Nicene Fathers, I, 253-54]

Irenaeus
(Late 2nd Cen.) And he [Anti-Christ] shall speak words against the most high God, and wear out the saints of the most high God, and shall purpose to change times and laws; and (everything) shall be given into his hand until a time of times and a half time, that is, for three years and six months, during which time, when he comes, he shall reign over the earth. Of whom also the Apostle Paul again, speaking in the second (Epistle) of the Thessalonians, and at the same time proclaiming the cause of his advent, thus says: "And then shall the wicked one be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus shall slay with the spirit of His mouth, and destroy by the presence of His coming."

For all these and other words were unquestionably spoken in reference to the resurrection of the just, which takes place after the coming of Antichrist, and the destruction of all nations under his rule; in (the time of) which (resurrection) the righteous shall reign in the earth, waxing stronger by the sight of the Lord: and through Him they shall become accustomed to partake in the glory of God the Father, and shall enjoy in the kingdom intercourse and communion with the holy angels, and union with spiritual beings; and (with respect to) those whom the Lord shall find in the flesh, awaiting Him from heaven, and who have suffered tribulation, as well as escaped the hands of the Wicked One. [Bell, p 34 - Irenaeus, "Against Heresies," ANF, I, 554, 565]

And they [the ten kings] shall...give their kingdom to the beast, and put the Church to flight" (Against Heresies V, 26, 1) [Gundry, p.175]

But he [John] indicates the number of the name [Antichrist, 666] now, that when this man comes we may avoid him, being aware who he is(Against Heresies V, 30, 4) [Gundry, p.175]

Irenaeus was a disciple of Polycarp [This may not be accurate.] who was a disciple of the Apostle John. John wrote far more about the Lord's return in the New Testament than did all other writers combined. It's safe to assume that the apostle John had a pretty clear understanding of orthodox teaching on the return of Christ and that Polycarp and Irenaeus would have had a better idea than anyone else of what John taught. One might wonder if charges from Walvoord about Irenaeus being clouded, immature, or heretical should raise more questions about Walvoord's teaching than that of Irenaeus.

Tertullian
(c. 200 A.D.) ... In the Revelation of John, again, the order of these times is spread out to view... that the beast Antichrist with his false prophet may wage war on the Church of God. ...

"For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven, if so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked;" which means, before we put off the garment of the flesh, we wish to be clothed with the celestial glory of immortality. Now the privilege of this favour awaits those who shall at the coming of the Lord be found in the flesh, and who shall, owing to the oppressions of the time of Antichrist, deserve by an instantaneous death, which is accomplished by a sudden change, to become qualified to join the rising saints. [Bell, p 35 - Tert. "On the Resurrection of the Flesh," ANF, III, 563]

That the beast Antichrist with his false prophet may wage war in the Church of God.... Since, then, the Scriptures both indicate the stages of the last times, and concentrate the harvest of the Christian hope in the very end of the world..."(On the Resurrection of the Flesh xxv; cf, Scorpiace xii) [Gundry, p.177]

Hippolytus
(early 3rd Cen.) It is proper that we take the Holy Scriptures themselves in hand, and find out from them what, and of what manner, the coming of Antichrist is; on what occasion and at what time the impious one shall be revealed; and whence and from what tribe (he shall come); and what his name is, which is indicated by the number in the Scripture; and how he shall work error among the people, gathering them from the ends of the earth; and (how) he shall stir up tribulation and persecution against the saints; and how he shall glorify himself as God; and what his end shall be; and how the sudden appearing of the Lord shall be revealed from heaven; and what the conflagration of the whole world shall be; and what the glorious and heavenly kingdom of the saints is to be, when they reign together with Christ; and what the punishment of the wicked by fire. [Bell, p 35-36 - Hip.,"Treatise on Christ and Antichrist," ANF, v, 205]

Now concerning the tribulation of the persecution which is to fall upon the Church from the adversary [he has been speaking of the Antichrist and the Antichrist's persecution of the saints and continues in the same vein]...That refers to the one thousand two hundred and threescore days (the half of the week) during which the tyrant is to reign and persecute the Church (Treatise on Christ and Antichrist 60,61). [Gundry, p. 176]

Ephriam the Syrian
(306-373) Nothing remains then, except that the coming of our enemy, Antichrist, appear..."(Sermo Asceticus, I) [MacPherson, p.18]

Cyril of Jerusalem
(315-386) The Church declares to thee the things concerning Antichrist before they arrive... it is well that, knowing these things, thou shouldest make thyself ready beforehand (Catechetical Lectures, 15,9) [MacPherson, p.18]

Augustine
(354-430) But he who reads this passage [Daniel 12] even half asleep, cannot fail to see that the kingdom of Antichrist shall fiercely, though for a short time, assail the Church...(The City of God, XX, 23). [MacPherson, p.19]

Bernard of Clairvaux
(1090-1153) There remains only one thing - that the demon of noonday [Antichrist] should appear, to seduce those who remain still in Christ... (Sermons on the Song of Songs, 33, 16). [MacPherson, p.19]

John Wycliffe
(1320-1384) Wherefore let us pray to God that he keep us in the hour of temptation, which is coming upon all the world, Rev iii (Writings of the Reverend and Learned John Wickliff, D.D., p. 155) [MacPherson, p.18]

Martin Luther
(1483-1546) [The book of Revelation] is intended as a revelation of things that are to happen in the future, and especially of the tribulations and disasters for the Church ... (Works of Martin Luther, VI, p. 481). [MacPherson, p.19-20]

John Knox
(1515-1572) ...the great love of God towards his Church, whom he pleased to forewarne of dangers to come, so many yeers before they come to passe ... to wit, The man of sin, The Antichrist, The Whore of Babilon (The Historie of the Reformatioun..., I, p. 76) [MacPherson, p.20]

John Foxe
(1516-1587) ... that second beast prophesied to come in the later time of the Church ... to disturb the whole Church of Christ... (Acts and Monuments, I). [MacPherson, p. 20]

Daniel Whitby
(1638-1726) ...after the Fall of Antichrist, there shall be such a glorious State of the Church ... so shall this be the Church of Martyrs, and of those who had not received the Mark of the Beast... ("A Paraphrase and Commentary", p. 696) [MacPherson, p. 21]

John Newton
(1725-1807) Fear not temptation's fiery day, for I will be thy strength and stay. thou hast my promise, hold it fast, the trying hour [Revelation 3:10] will soon be past ( "The Works of the Rev. John Newton, Vol II, p. 152) [MacPherson, p.22]

Oswald J. Smith
... I am absolutely convinced that there will be no rapture before the Tribulation, but that the Church will undoubtedly be called upon to face the Antichrist..." (Tribulation or Rapture - Which?, p. 12) [MacPherson, p.29]

Harold J. Ockenga
No exegetical justification exists for the arbitrary separation of the 'coming of Christ' and the 'day of the Lord.' It is one 'day of the Lord Jesus Christ' (Christian Life, February, 1955). [MacPherson, p.31]

John R. W. Stott
He would not spare them from the suffering [Revelation 3:10]; but He would uphold them in it" (What Christ Thinks of the Church, p.104). [MacPherson, p.33]

Bernard L. Ramm
...as the Church moves to meet her Lord at the parousia world history is also moving to meet its Judge at the same parousia (Leo Eddleman's Last Things, p. 41) [MacPherson, p.33]

J. Barton Payne
Hippolytus, for example, foresaw a rather complex series of events which would culminate in the coming of Christ, including a ten-nation confederacy, the appearance of Anti-Christ, and severe persecution of the church. He felt that these events might begin at any time, but Christ's coming itself would thus not be at any moment.

Tertullian, Irenaeus, and Lactantius also foresaw detailed complexes of events, climaxed by Christ's coming and thus could not be classified as believing in immanency." [Bell p50 - from J. Barton Payne, The Imminent Appearing of Christ, p17-18]

These are all unquestionably post-tribulational views. Historic Christianity supports the view that the event known by some as the rapture, more accurately titled the Resurrection, Gathering, Harvest, or Translation of the Saints, is to take place at the end of the period commonly referred to as the tribulation. Dispensationalists admit this to be true.

"... it is freely admitted by pretribulationists that no trace of the doctrine is to be found in church history after the Ante- Nicene fathers until the nineteenth century". [Emphasis mine.] [Bell, p27 - from Gerald B. Stanton, "Kept from the Hour", (unpublished doctor's dissertation, Dallas Theological Seminary, 1952 p, 315)]

Since pretribulationists admit that the doctrine was unknown during the period following the Ante-Nicene age until "rediscovered" and "refined" by the nineteenth-century Plymouth Brethren, ... it will be unnecessary to survey the intervening period in this study. [Bell p56]

The reader is free to disagree with the above however he or she wishes. However, if you wish me to thoughtfully consider your position, please provide documentation to support your position. Please don’t bother to insult me and claim that I am wrong and you are right. That helps neither of us come to a better understanding of the truth. Thank you.

Hello EarnestQ,

All of those quotes above mean nothing at all, as they are not scripture. They are just men giving their opinions just as they do today. What is in scripture is that the church is not appointed to suffer wrath, because Jesus took upon himself the wrath that we deserve, satisfying it and therefore we as believers cannot go through it (1 Thes.1:10, 5:9, Rev.3:10)

Within Rev.1 thru 3, the word "Ekklesia" translated "Church" is used and the word "Hagios" translated as "saints" is not found in those same chapters. From Rev.4 onward, the word Ekklesia/church is never seen but only the word Hagios/Saints. This is significant, a clue of God, in demonstrating that the church is no longer on the earth at this point, as it is never referred to within the narrative of God's wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. It is not until Rev.19:6-8 that the church is alluded to as the Bride at the wedding which is in heaven.

Rev.19:11-21 is a detailed account of the Lord's return to the earth to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom after the 7th bowl has been poured out, which completes God's wrath (Rev.15:1). Those riding on white horses dressed in fine linen, white and clean, who is this army described following Christ out of heaven? It is His Bride who will have previously received her fine linen, white and clean in Rev.19:6-8 at the wedding of the Lamb. Regarding Christ's return to the earth, Rev.17:14 states that those returning with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers. In case anyone wants to apply this as to referring to angels, these designations would be an improper description for them, for only the redeemed would be referred to as the called, chosen and faithful followers.

EarnestQ · Aug 14, 2016

Ahwatukee

I am working on getting the verses together. It won't be until tomorrow (hopefully).

I ask you to please provide me with the verses that prove, not just allow, a pre-trib rapture. I haven't found any.

Please do not include any Dispensational reinterpretation, just your own explanation of how that passage proves a pre-trib rapture.

This is where I started 30 years ago. I found that there are no verses like that so I started investigating where that idea came from and what the history of the church claimed about the idea.

The above is a part of my research. It shows the pre-trib rapture idea was born in a cult church in the 1820's. So, I figured that since there is nothing in the Bible to support a pre-trib rapture and the whole Dispensational structure that promotes it is a new teaching from a cult church, maybe I didn't need to believe in it anymore.

But what each of us believes is our responsibility before God. I have presented some of the information that leads me to my position. I am willing to consider your position if you provide some documentation that leads you to take your position.

For my part, I offer Mt 24 as proof of a "post-trib resurrection". Dispensationalists mis-interpret this to apply it to the Jews because it clearly contradicts thier pre-trib rapture. I have shown above that Darby plagiarized this idea, likely from the Irvingites, specifically so he could deny the truth of Mt 24 clearly showing a post tribulation return of Christ.

This is not opinion. This is fact as shown above.

Another quick justification of the only return of Christ being after the three and a half year tribulation (but in my opinion, before the Day of Gods Wrath) is to simply put all the New Testament mentions of "trumpet" as related to an end times connection together and see what they say.

Dispensationalists teach that one should not do this because it clearly refutes any pre-trib concept.

But don't take my word for it. Just put the verses together for yourself and ask God what He was saying when He had these verses written.

I will respond with more later.

abcdef · Aug 15, 2016

Ahwatukee said:

Brother Ahwatukee,

I'm going to have to ask you for further explanation, on the verses that you have used to support/confirm the theory of the church being removed, at the beginning of a 7 yr trib, and avoiding "God's wrath".

1 Thess 1:10,

"And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come."

This is speaking of the wrath of God in a general sense, as related to the resurrection.

After the final resurrection God's wrath is poured out on sin one final time and we, ("us", 1 Thess 1:10, also includes the writer Paul), are saved from His wrath and the second death.

In your theory, you say that this verse refers to a specific time period of 7 years, which happens, according to your time
line, over 2,000 years in the future.

Can you confirm with scripture , that 1 Th 1:10, is about a seven year time period ONLY, and not about the final judgement of sin?
----------

1 Th 5:9,

"For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ."

This scripture is even clearer about the wrath that it is written about, it contrasts the wrath with our salvation that we have in Christ.

Show me how this is written about a 7 year time period ONLY.

Notice again how Paul says "us", that would include him.
--------------

Rev 3:10,

"Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon the whole world, to try them that dwell upon the earth."

This is Literally written to the church in Philadelphia. IT is specifically written to them and their situation in that congregation.

But you have pulled the phrase, "hour of temptation", out of context, and tried to make it say,

The hour of temptation is not temptation at all, it really means wrath.

And, it's not an hour, it is a 7 year time period when God's wrath is poured out.

Neither of these things are indicated by the context.
--------------------

If you can explain these verses, with scripture, to show how you have come to the conclusion that you have, about their relation to a specific 7 year time period, please do.

If you cannot, then, can you use them again, to apply to that 7 years, knowing that they do not apply?

popeye · Aug 15, 2016

EarnestQ said:

PART FOUR

How well then, is the post-tribulation position represented in church history?

Justin Martyr
(c. 150 A.D.) O unreasoning men! understanding not what has been proved by all these passages, that two advents of Christ have been announced: the one, in which He is set forth as suffering, inglorious, dishonored, and crucified; but the other, in which He shall come from heaven with glory, when the man of apostasy, who speaks strange things against the Most High, shall venture to do unlawful deeds on the earth against us the Christians. [Bell, p 33-34 - Justin Martyr, "Dialog with Trypho," The Ante-Nicene Fathers, I, 253-54]

Irenaeus
(Late 2nd Cen.) And he [Anti-Christ] shall speak words against the most high God, and wear out the saints of the most high God, and shall purpose to change times and laws; and (everything) shall be given into his hand until a time of times and a half time, that is, for three years and six months, during which time, when he comes, he shall reign over the earth. Of whom also the Apostle Paul again, speaking in the second (Epistle) of the Thessalonians, and at the same time proclaiming the cause of his advent, thus says: "And then shall the wicked one be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus shall slay with the spirit of His mouth, and destroy by the presence of His coming."

For all these and other words were unquestionably spoken in reference to the resurrection of the just, which takes place after the coming of Antichrist, and the destruction of all nations under his rule; in (the time of) which (resurrection) the righteous shall reign in the earth, waxing stronger by the sight of the Lord: and through Him they shall become accustomed to partake in the glory of God the Father, and shall enjoy in the kingdom intercourse and communion with the holy angels, and union with spiritual beings; and (with respect to) those whom the Lord shall find in the flesh, awaiting Him from heaven, and who have suffered tribulation, as well as escaped the hands of the Wicked One. [Bell, p 34 - Irenaeus, "Against Heresies," ANF, I, 554, 565]

And they [the ten kings] shall...give their kingdom to the beast, and put the Church to flight" (Against Heresies V, 26, 1) [Gundry, p.175]

But he [John] indicates the number of the name [Antichrist, 666] now, that when this man comes we may avoid him, being aware who he is(Against Heresies V, 30, 4) [Gundry, p.175]

Irenaeus was a disciple of Polycarp [This may not be accurate.] who was a disciple of the Apostle John. John wrote far more about the Lord's return in the New Testament than did all other writers combined. It's safe to assume that the apostle John had a pretty clear understanding of orthodox teaching on the return of Christ and that Polycarp and Irenaeus would have had a better idea than anyone else of what John taught. One might wonder if charges from Walvoord about Irenaeus being clouded, immature, or heretical should raise more questions about Walvoord's teaching than that of Irenaeus.

Tertullian
(c. 200 A.D.) ... In the Revelation of John, again, the order of these times is spread out to view... that the beast Antichrist with his false prophet may wage war on the Church of God. ...

"For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven, if so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked;" which means, before we put off the garment of the flesh, we wish to be clothed with the celestial glory of immortality. Now the privilege of this favour awaits those who shall at the coming of the Lord be found in the flesh, and who shall, owing to the oppressions of the time of Antichrist, deserve by an instantaneous death, which is accomplished by a sudden change, to become qualified to join the rising saints. [Bell, p 35 - Tert. "On the Resurrection of the Flesh," ANF, III, 563]

That the beast Antichrist with his false prophet may wage war in the Church of God.... Since, then, the Scriptures both indicate the stages of the last times, and concentrate the harvest of the Christian hope in the very end of the world..."(On the Resurrection of the Flesh xxv; cf, Scorpiace xii) [Gundry, p.177]

Hippolytus
(early 3rd Cen.) It is proper that we take the Holy Scriptures themselves in hand, and find out from them what, and of what manner, the coming of Antichrist is; on what occasion and at what time the impious one shall be revealed; and whence and from what tribe (he shall come); and what his name is, which is indicated by the number in the Scripture; and how he shall work error among the people, gathering them from the ends of the earth; and (how) he shall stir up tribulation and persecution against the saints; and how he shall glorify himself as God; and what his end shall be; and how the sudden appearing of the Lord shall be revealed from heaven; and what the conflagration of the whole world shall be; and what the glorious and heavenly kingdom of the saints is to be, when they reign together with Christ; and what the punishment of the wicked by fire. [Bell, p 35-36 - Hip.,"Treatise on Christ and Antichrist," ANF, v, 205]

Now concerning the tribulation of the persecution which is to fall upon the Church from the adversary [he has been speaking of the Antichrist and the Antichrist's persecution of the saints and continues in the same vein]...That refers to the one thousand two hundred and threescore days (the half of the week) during which the tyrant is to reign and persecute the Church (Treatise on Christ and Antichrist 60,61). [Gundry, p. 176]

Ephriam the Syrian
(306-373) Nothing remains then, except that the coming of our enemy, Antichrist, appear..."(Sermo Asceticus, I) [MacPherson, p.18]

Cyril of Jerusalem
(315-386) The Church declares to thee the things concerning Antichrist before they arrive... it is well that, knowing these things, thou shouldest make thyself ready beforehand (Catechetical Lectures, 15,9) [MacPherson, p.18]

Augustine
(354-430) But he who reads this passage [Daniel 12] even half asleep, cannot fail to see that the kingdom of Antichrist shall fiercely, though for a short time, assail the Church...(The City of God, XX, 23). [MacPherson, p.19]

Bernard of Clairvaux
(1090-1153) There remains only one thing - that the demon of noonday [Antichrist] should appear, to seduce those who remain still in Christ... (Sermons on the Song of Songs, 33, 16). [MacPherson, p.19]

John Wycliffe
(1320-1384) Wherefore let us pray to God that he keep us in the hour of temptation, which is coming upon all the world, Rev iii (Writings of the Reverend and Learned John Wickliff, D.D., p. 155) [MacPherson, p.18]

Martin Luther
(1483-1546) [The book of Revelation] is intended as a revelation of things that are to happen in the future, and especially of the tribulations and disasters for the Church ... (Works of Martin Luther, VI, p. 481). [MacPherson, p.19-20]

John Knox
(1515-1572) ...the great love of God towards his Church, whom he pleased to forewarne of dangers to come, so many yeers before they come to passe ... to wit, The man of sin, The Antichrist, The Whore of Babilon (The Historie of the Reformatioun..., I, p. 76) [MacPherson, p.20]

John Foxe
(1516-1587) ... that second beast prophesied to come in the later time of the Church ... to disturb the whole Church of Christ... (Acts and Monuments, I). [MacPherson, p. 20]

Daniel Whitby
(1638-1726) ...after the Fall of Antichrist, there shall be such a glorious State of the Church ... so shall this be the Church of Martyrs, and of those who had not received the Mark of the Beast... ("A Paraphrase and Commentary", p. 696) [MacPherson, p. 21]

John Newton
(1725-1807) Fear not temptation's fiery day, for I will be thy strength and stay. thou hast my promise, hold it fast, the trying hour [Revelation 3:10] will soon be past ( "The Works of the Rev. John Newton, Vol II, p. 152) [MacPherson, p.22]

Oswald J. Smith
... I am absolutely convinced that there will be no rapture before the Tribulation, but that the Church will undoubtedly be called upon to face the Antichrist..." (Tribulation or Rapture - Which?, p. 12) [MacPherson, p.29]

Harold J. Ockenga
No exegetical justification exists for the arbitrary separation of the 'coming of Christ' and the 'day of the Lord.' It is one 'day of the Lord Jesus Christ' (Christian Life, February, 1955). [MacPherson, p.31]

John R. W. Stott
He would not spare them from the suffering [Revelation 3:10]; but He would uphold them in it" (What Christ Thinks of the Church, p.104). [MacPherson, p.33]

Bernard L. Ramm
...as the Church moves to meet her Lord at the parousia world history is also moving to meet its Judge at the same parousia (Leo Eddleman's Last Things, p. 41) [MacPherson, p.33]

J. Barton Payne
Hippolytus, for example, foresaw a rather complex series of events which would culminate in the coming of Christ, including a ten-nation confederacy, the appearance of Anti-Christ, and severe persecution of the church. He felt that these events might begin at any time, but Christ's coming itself would thus not be at any moment.

Tertullian, Irenaeus, and Lactantius also foresaw detailed complexes of events, climaxed by Christ's coming and thus could not be classified as believing in immanency." [Bell p50 - from J. Barton Payne, The Imminent Appearing of Christ, p17-18]

These are all unquestionably post-tribulational views. Historic Christianity supports the view that the event known by some as the rapture, more accurately titled the Resurrection, Gathering, Harvest, or Translation of the Saints, is to take place at the end of the period commonly referred to as the tribulation. Dispensationalists admit this to be true.

"... it is freely admitted by pretribulationists that no trace of the doctrine is to be found in church history after the Ante- Nicene fathers until the nineteenth century". [Emphasis mine.] [Bell, p27 - from Gerald B. Stanton, "Kept from the Hour", (unpublished doctor's dissertation, Dallas Theological Seminary, 1952 p, 315)]

Since pretribulationists admit that the doctrine was unknown during the period following the Ante-Nicene age until "rediscovered" and "refined" by the nineteenth-century Plymouth Brethren, ... it will be unnecessary to survey the intervening period in this study. [Bell p56]

The reader is free to disagree with the above however he or she wishes. However, if you wish me to thoughtfully consider your position, please provide documentation to support your position. Please don’t bother to insult me and claim that I am wrong and you are right. That helps neither of us come to a better understanding of the truth. Thank you.

10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

thrhswtErEsOG5083vi Fut Act 1 SgSHALL-BE-KEEPINGekekG1537PrepOUTthstEsG3588t_ Gen Sg fOF-THEwrashOrasG5610n_ Gen Sg f

Lets see if mr wycliff can quote the WORD;

John Wycliffe
(1320-1384) Wherefore let us pray to God that he keep us in the hour of temptation, which is coming upon all the world, Rev iii

HMMMMMM,

Houston,we have a problem.

Now,if I can spot this illegitimate mess so easily ,why can't these post trib super duper bible "experts" do the same?

Goes to show you the FOLLY of following dead men and letting the bible collect dust.

abcdef · Aug 15, 2016

popeye said:

10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

thrhswtErEsOG5083vi Fut Act 1 SgSHALL-BE-KEEPINGekekG1537PrepOUTthstEsG3588t_ Gen Sg fOF-THEwrashOrasG5610n_ Gen Sg f

Lets see if mr wycliff can quote the WORD;

John Wycliffe
(1320-1384) Wherefore let us pray to God that he keep us in the hour of temptation, which is coming upon all the world, Rev iii

HMMMMMM,

Houston,we have a problem.

Now,if I can spot this illegitimate mess so easily ,why can't these post trib super duper bible "experts" do the same?

Goes to show you the FOLLY of following dead men and letting the bible collect dust.

Brother Popeye,

Is temptation the same as wrath?

Will you explain post # 78?

I asked Brother Ahwatukee, but he might be workin'.

THE PRE-TRIB RAPTURE DOES NOT FIT LAST DAYS PROPHECY ABOUT NOAH

Senior Member

Senior Member

popeye

Guest

popeye

Guest

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Banned

popeye

Guest

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

popeye

Guest

Senior Member