THE PRE-TRIB RAPTURE DOES NOT FIT LAST DAYS PROPHECY ABOUT NOAH

[Ahwatukee]

Hello abcdef,

"And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come."

This is speaking of the wrath of God in a general sense, as related to the resurrection.

There is a time coming, prophesied of in the old and new testaments, of a specific time of God's wrath that will be a time like no other. Before Jesus can return to the earth to end the age, the wrath of God will be poured out upon that last generation. Right now the Holy Spirit is restraining the full power of sin and is holding back that the man of lawlessness from being revealed until his proper time. Since the Holy Spirit indwells all believers, once "He" the restrainer is removed, the church will also be removed and then that man of lawlessness, the antichrist will be revealed and the full force of sin will be released (2 Thes.2:5-8). Therefore, the wrath that is coming is anything but general. It is the day of the Lord, also referred by Jesus as "the hour trial."

Regarding the last half of the seven year period, Jesus said that that it would be a time of great tribulation such as the world has not seen, from the beginning, until now and never to be equaled again. It will be so bad that He said, if those days had not been shortened, no one would be left alive (Matt.24:21-22).

The book of Revelation presents a detailed account of that coming wrath which will be carried out via seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. By the time the 7th bowl judgment has been poured out, the population of the earth will have been decimated and all human government dismantled (Dan.2:31-45). The prophecy of Zephaniah paints a good picture of the wrath to come:

"I will sweep away everything from the face of the earth, When I destroy all mankind on the face of the earth, declares the Lord. I will sweep away both man and beast; I will sweep away the birds in the sky and the fish in the sea—and the idols that cause the wicked to stumble. When I destroy all mankind on the face of the earth,” (Zeph.1:1-3)

"I will make man scarcer than pure gold, more rare than the gold of Ophir." (Isa.13:12)

As I said, this coming wrath lies in between right now and must be completed prior to Christ's return to the earth to end the age. A further understanding of the severity of God's coming wrath can be understood by reading the events of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. The wrath that is coming is anything but general, as you coined it.

"For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ."

This scripture is even clearer about the wrath that it is written about, it contrasts the wrath with our salvation that we have in Christ.

It is not only the wrath that comes from condemning judgment that Jesus rescues us from, but from the wrath that is coming upon this earth prior to the thousand year reign of Christ.

Notice again how Paul says "us", that would include him.

Paul, as well as the other apostles included themselves by saying "Us" because the Lord taught that His return to gather the church is always imminent and continues to be imminent, as can be deduced from the following:

"Be dressed ready for service and keep your lamps burning, 36like servants waiting for their master to return from a wedding banquet, so that when he comes and knocks they can immediately open the door for him. It will be good for those servants whose master finds them watching when he comes. Truly I tell you, he will dress himself to serve, will have them recline at the table and will come and wait on them. It will be good for those servants whose master finds them ready, even if he comes in the middle of the night or toward daybreak. But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what hour the thief was coming, he would not have let his house be broken into. You also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.”

"Wake up! Strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have found your deeds unfinished in the sight of my God. Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; hold it fast, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you.

"Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon the whole world, to try them that dwell upon the earth."

This is Literally written to the church in Philadelphia. IT is specifically written to them and their situation in that congregation.

Though it was written to the church of Philadelphia, the information contained in the letters to the seven churches is to the entire church throughout the entire church period. "The hour of trial that is coming upon the whole world" is speaking about the day of the Lord, that time of God's wrath that I described to you above.

And, it's not an hour, it is a 7 year time period when God's wrath is poured out.

Correct, it is not an hour in length nor is it a day. It is a phrase used to describe that time period, just like "the [day] of the Lord." Both are speaking about that coming time of wrath.

I will explain the seven year period on another post.

 

[popeye]

Brother Popeye,

Is temptation the same as wrath?

Will you explain post # 78?

I asked Brother Ahwatukee, but he might be workin'.

The greek has it as "trial"

10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

Hour of trial coming upon the face of the earth and it's inhabitants is what it says.
Then,the very next sentence is "I come quickly"

 

[abcdef]

Hello abcdef,



There is a time coming, prophesied of in the old and new testaments, of a specific time of God's wrath that will be a time like no other. Before Jesus can return to the earth to end the age, the wrath of God will be poured out upon that last generation. Right now the Holy Spirit is restraining the full power of sin and is holding back that the man of lawlessness from being revealed until his proper time. Since the Holy Spirit indwells all believers, once "He" the restrainer is removed, the church will also be removed and then that man of lawlessness, the antichrist will be revealed and the full force of sin will be released (2 Thes.2:5-8). Therefore, the wrath that is coming is anything but general. It is the day of the Lord, also referred by Jesus as "the hour trial."

Regarding the last half of the seven year period, Jesus said that that it would be a time of great tribulation such as the world has not seen, from the beginning, until now and never to be equaled again. It will be so bad that He said, if those days had not been shortened, no one would be left alive (Matt.24:21-22).

The book of Revelation presents a detailed account of that coming wrath which will be carried out via seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. By the time the 7th bowl judgment has been poured out, the population of the earth will have been decimated and all human government dismantled (Dan.2:31-45). The prophecy of Zephaniah paints a good picture of the wrath to come:

"I will sweep away everything from the face of the earth, When I destroy all mankind on the face of the earth, declares the Lord. I will sweep away both man and beast; I will sweep away the birds in the sky and the fish in the sea—and the idols that cause the wicked to stumble. When I destroy all mankind on the face of the earth,” (Zeph.1:1-3)

"I will make man scarcer than pure gold, more rare than the gold of Ophir." (Isa.13:12)

As I said, this coming wrath lies in between right now and must be completed prior to Christ's return to the earth to end the age. A further understanding of the severity of God's coming wrath can be understood by reading the events of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. The wrath that is coming is anything but general, as you coined it.



It is not only the wrath that comes from condemning judgment that Jesus rescues us from, but from the wrath that is coming upon this earth prior to the thousand year reign of Christ.



Paul, as well as the other apostles included themselves by saying "Us" because the Lord taught that His return to gather the church is always imminent and continues to be imminent, as can be deduced from the following:

"Be dressed ready for service and keep your lamps burning, 36like servants waiting for their master to return from a wedding banquet, so that when he comes and knocks they can immediately open the door for him. It will be good for those servants whose master finds them watching when he comes. Truly I tell you, he will dress himself to serve, will have them recline at the table and will come and wait on them. It will be good for those servants whose master finds them ready, even if he comes in the middle of the night or toward daybreak. But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what hour the thief was coming, he would not have let his house be broken into. You also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.”

"Wake up! Strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have found your deeds unfinished in the sight of my God. Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; hold it fast, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you.



Though it was written to the church of Philadelphia, the information contained in the letters to the seven churches is to the entire church throughout the entire church period. "The hour of trial that is coming upon the whole world" is speaking about the day of the Lord, that time of God's wrath that I described to you above.



Correct, it is not an hour in length nor is it a day. It is a phrase used to describe that time period, just like "the [day] of the Lord." Both are speaking about that coming time of wrath.

I will explain the seven year period on another post.

I hope that people who read Brother Ahwatukee's response will take the time to look at my post#78, and see the questions that were asked.

I am not satisfied with his response, which appeared to be avoiding the direct questions with generalizations and assumptions.

There is a real reason why he has avoided answering the direct and specific questions.

Whoever reads this,

Go to your Bible and study the questions I asked him.

What is your answer?

 

[Ahwatukee]

I hope that people who read Brother Ahwatukee's response will take the time to look at my post#78, and see the questions that were asked.

I am not satisfied with his response, which appeared to be avoiding the direct questions with generalizations and assumptions.

There is a real reason why he has avoided answering the direct and specific questions.

Whoever reads this,

Go to your Bible and study the questions I asked him.

What is your answer?

Hello abcdef,

First, I can assure that I avoiding anything. What are the specific questions that you have? I am more than happy to respond, as my answers are always based on Scripture. But please make them one at a time and a precise. What I mean is, don't go to L.A. by Omaha with your questions.

Thanks!

 

[DP]

I will show how confused... Ahwatukee is with Bible Scripture, revealing that his interpretations are not to be trusted:

Hello abcdef,

There is a time coming, prophesied of in the old and new testaments, of a specific time of God's wrath that will be a time like no other.

There is no such Bible statement to that effect about the time of God's wrath. Instead, the statement of a time like never before, and never will be again, is about the time of "great tribulation" that Jesus foretold of, which also is mentioned in Daniel 12.

Matt 24:21
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
KJV

From the start Ahwatukee is trying to establish a lie in your mind, that the time of "great tribulation" is the time of God's wrath, when it is not. The time of God's wrath is at the END of the great tribulation, and actually ends the trib.

Before Jesus can return to the earth to end the age, the wrath of God will be poured out upon that last generation.

That is not aligned with Scripture either. The day of God's cup of wrath poured out upon the wicked IS... the day of Jesus 2nd coming on "the day of the Lord" (see Rev.19). So that is not "Before Jesus can return to the earth...", it is WHEN Jesus returns to earth.

Right now the Holy Spirit is restraining the full power of sin and is holding back that the man of lawlessness from being revealed until his proper time. Since the Holy Spirit indwells all believers, once "He" the restrainer is removed, the church will also be removed and then that man of lawlessness, the antichrist will be revealed and the full force of sin will be released (2 Thes.2:5-8).

The Scripture of the one doing the withholding of 2 Thess.2, Apostle Paul never mentioned The Holy Spirit. That is a doctrine of men added to the Scripture. We are not told by Paul exactly who the one is doing the withholding of that coming false one.

2 Thess 2:6-7
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
KJV


However, in Daniel 10, which is a view of events taking place in Heaven, using earthly labels for Satan like "the prince of the kingdom of Persia", it shows angels fighting with Satan, and about the Archangel Michael coming to help withhold Satan.

Dan 10:12-13
12 Then said he unto me, Fear not, Daniel: for from the first day that thou didst set thine heart to understand, and to chasten thyself before thy God, thy words were heard, and I am come for thy words.
13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.
KJV

Dan 10:21
21 But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince.
KJV

Therefore, the wrath that is coming is anything but general. It is the day of the Lord, also referred by Jesus as "the hour trial."

That false idea is what Ahwatukee was trying to establish in your minds. The "day of the Lord" event is timed with the day of Christ's return when God's cup of wrath is poured out upon the wicked, and then Jesus' 1,000 reign with His elect immediately begins at that point.

On the last day of this present world with our Lord Jesus' 2nd coming, the elements of man's works are going to be burned off the surface of this earth. That will of course END... any and all events on earth by flesh man, including by the Antichrist:

2 Peter 3:10
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
KJV

In 1 Thessalonians 5, Apostle Paul also gave that event with the idea of a "sudden destruction" upon the wicked. In the Old Testament prophets like Isaiah 29, God said that event of destruction upon the wicked will happen at an instant, suddenly:

Isa 29:5-7
5 Moreover the multitude of thy strangers shall be like small dust, and the multitude of the terrible ones shall be as chaff that passeth away: yea, it shall be at an instant suddenly.

6 Thou shalt be visited of the LORD of hosts with thunder, and with earthquake, and great noise, with storm and tempest, and the flame of devouring fire.

7 And the multitude of all the nations that fight against Ariel, even all that fight against her and her munition, and that distress her, shall be as a dream of a night vision.
KJV

Does that sound like the time of "great tribulation" that's to last for 1260 days at the end of this world? No, of course not. It instead is about the END of this present world and the things of man in it! And like God showed there, that final event of this world to end the tribulation will occur "at an instant suddenly." Man's works ("elements") will then be burned off this earth with that final event on "the day of the Lord" (see end of Hebrews 12 also about that consuming fire event to end this world).

Regarding the last half of the seven year period, Jesus said that that it would be a time of great tribulation such as the world has not seen, from the beginning, until now and never to be equaled again. It will be so bad that He said, if those days had not been shortened, no one would be left alive (Matt.24:21-22).

That reveals how confused Ahwatukee is with his interpretation of Bible Scripture. The reason why he is confusing the time of the "great tribulation" (final 3.5 years of this world), with the time of God's cup of wrath (end of this world on last day, i.e., "the day of the Lord"), is because of the pre-trib rapture doctrine he has latched onto.

The book of Revelation presents a detailed account of that coming wrath which will be carried out via seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. By the time the 7th bowl judgment has been poured out, the population of the earth will have been decimated and all human government dismantled (Dan.2:31-45). The prophecy of Zephaniah paints a good picture of the wrath to come:

"I will sweep away everything from the face of the earth, When I destroy all mankind on the face of the earth, declares the Lord. I will sweep away both man and beast; I will sweep away the birds in the sky and the fish in the sea—and the idols that cause the wicked to stumble. When I destroy all mankind on the face of the earth,” (Zeph.1:1-3)

Again, Ahwatukee's interpretation is slanted away from the actual meaning of those Scriptures because of the doctrine from men he instead is heeding. The ONLY time of God's cup of wrath poured out upon the wicked is on the very LAST DAY of this world...

Rev 16:17-21
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.

19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of His wrath.

20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.

21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.
KJV

That is the specific "wrath" from God that Ahwatukee is talking about. Do you see a problem with his timing on that event? You should, because that particular cup of wrath from God upon the wicked only will occur at that final 7th Vial. Per Rev.16:1, all... the Vials are called God's wrath. But which Vial actually ENDS... the time of the wicked on this earth? The final one, of course, which ENDS this present world. That's the event of "the day of the Lord" that Peter showed burns the elements off the earth. Ahwatukee instead is trying to say these events happen... DURING... the great tribulation time. Well, they do not. They occur at the very end of this world. He is mixed up, and it's because of the doctrines of men.

"I will make man scarcer than pure gold, more rare than the gold of Ophir." (Isa.13:12)

As I said, this coming wrath lies in between right now and must be completed prior to Christ's return to the earth to end the age. A further understanding of the severity of God's coming wrath can be understood by reading the events of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. The wrath that is coming is anything but general, as you coined it.

Now that should sound really... confusing.

In other words, he's saying the time of that sudden destruction at an instant, on the last day of this world, burning man's works off this earth, is to begin right now? and continue all the way to the time of Christ's 2nd coming at the end? That's a blatant TWISTING of Scripture, because per the Scriptures I've already shown the "day of the Lord" events will burn the elements of man's works off this earth when it occurs. And God showed it will happen at an instant, suddenly!!!!

Here is Apostle Paul showing the very same thing as I said above...

1 Thess 5:2-3
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

3 For when they shall say, "Peace and safety"; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
KJV


There's that at an instant, suddenly, idea again that God said in Isaiah 29 for the final day. That day of God's wrath upon the world is going to take the world by surprise, and like God also said in Isaiah, it will be like waking up from a dream. Notice when the world finally thinks it's safe and there is peace in the world, that sudden destruction comes and surprises them as a thief breaking in at midnight.

It is not only the wrath that comes from condemning judgment that Jesus rescues us from, but from the wrath that is coming upon this earth prior to the thousand year reign of Christ.

There again, Ahwatukee is wrongly referring to God's cup of wrath on the final day as if it were the great tribulation event. He is not mentioning Satan's wrath which we must endure during the great tribulation:

Rev 12:12
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
KJV

Paul, as well as the other apostles included themselves by saying "Us" because the Lord taught that His return to gather the church is always imminent and continues to be imminent, as can be deduced from the following:

"Be dressed ready for service and keep your lamps burning, 36like servants waiting for their master to return from a wedding banquet, so that when he comes and knocks they can immediately open the door for him. It will be good for those servants whose master finds them watching when he comes. Truly I tell you, he will dress himself to serve, will have them recline at the table and will come and wait on them. It will be good for those servants whose master finds them ready, even if he comes in the middle of the night or toward daybreak. But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what hour the thief was coming, he would not have let his house be broken into. You also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.”

Ahwatukee has not properly understood the above Scriptures. Christ's 2nd coming is nowhere said to be "imminent" in Scripture. That is an idea from men (the Pre-tribulational Rapture theory). We are shown events for the end that MUST occur first, before our Lord Jesus will return to gather us. The idea of imminent means He could return in the next few seconds even, which students of God's Word that have studied in depth there are certain Biblical events still yet to occur today that MUST happen first, and one of the main ones is about the false one of 2 Thess.2 being revealed.

Also, when Jesus said He wants to find us on watch when He comes, that means watching the signs of the end He gave us to be watching, and to understand the events leading up to His 2nd coming. His should know where the timing of events are right now in the world today. That doesn't mean knowing the day or hour of His coming. It means marking the events and their order. Paul in 1 Thess.5 called these the "times and the seasons". He told the Thessalonians he had no need to go over those things with them, for they already knew them. His idea of the wicked saying, "Peace and safety" and then the "sudden destruction" coming upon them on the final day was from the OT prophets like Isaiah 29 that I quoted.

"Wake up! Strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have found your deeds unfinished in the sight of my God. Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; hold it fast, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you.

Just to show how confused Ahwatukee is, note how that above verse shows the opposite idea of the "imminent" theory Ahwatukee espoused earlier. That shows how confused one can get by following men's doctrines instead of reading the simplicity of the Scriptures.

Though it was written to the church of Philadelphia, the information contained in the letters to the seven churches is to the entire church throughout the entire church period. "The hour of trial that is coming upon the whole world" is speaking about the day of the Lord, that time of God's wrath that I described to you above.

Church period? What's that? There's no such idea of a "church period" written there. That's a theory from men, not God's Word. There again, Ahwatukee makes the mistake of wrongly applying the great tribulation timing of 3.5 years being the same period as the event of God's cup of wrath poured upon the wicked on the final day of this world, and thus ending... the great tribulation.

Correct, it is not an hour in length nor is it a day. It is a phrase used to describe that time period, just like "the [day] of the Lord." Both are speaking about that coming time of wrath.

I will explain the seven year period on another post.

More confusion... "the day of the Lord" we've already seen from 2 Pet.3:10 and 1 Thess.5 will occur only one time, at the end of this world.

Ahwatukee has claimed that his understanding of these things comes from his 40 years of studying The Bible. In reality he is bearing false witness, because it's obvious when one looks at the Scripture, there are things he is adding that have nothing to do with the verses at all. And that is a sign of listening to doctrines of men instead.

 

[Ahwatukee]

There is no such Bible statement to that effect about the time of God's wrath. Instead, the statement of a time like never before, and never will be again, is about the time of "great tribulation" that Jesus foretold of, which also is mentioned in Daniel 12.

Zeph.1-1-3 - I will sweep away everything from the face of the earth, When I destroy all mankind on the face of the earth, declares the Lord. I will sweep away both man and beast; I will sweep away the birds in the sky and the fish in the sea—and the idols that cause the wicked to stumble. When I destroy all mankind on the face of the earth,"

Isa.13:12 - "I will make man scarcer than pure gold, more rare than the gold of Ophir"

=================================================

These are just two of the references regarding the day of the Lord, which will involve the entire world and which is still future and which will take place leading up to Christ's return to the earth to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom. And the following is the way in which he will accomplish his coming wrath:

1st Seal - Rider on the white horse = antichrist

2nd Seal - Rider on the red horse = Peace taken from the earth so that men kill each other


3rd Seal - Rider on the black horse = world-wide famine represented by the fact that a small amount of food will cost a days wages.


4th Seal - Pale green horse = Death and Hades who are given power over earth to kill a fourth of the worlds population via war, famine, disease and by the wild beasts of the earth. Based on the current population of 7 billion, a four would equal approx. 1.7 billion people at the beginning of that last seven year period.

5th Seal - Results in no fatalities

6th Seal - A great earthquake, Sun darkened, moon turned blood red and heaven opened like a scroll and the announcement that "the great day of God's wrath has begun," which includes everything that had previously taken place, as well as what is still to come.

7Th Seal - Preparation for the seven trumpets. No fatalities result directly from this seal

=====================================

1st Trumpet - A third of the earth is burned up, a third of the trees, plants and all green grass.

2nd Trumpet - A asteroid or meteor hits one of the oceans and kills all of the creatures in that body of water equaling a third over all the earth. Likewise, all of the ships in that body of water are destroyed equaling a third of all the ships on the earth. This will happen because of the giant 1500 to 2000 plus foot waves that will be the result of that asteroid/meteor hitting in that body of water. What is not mentioned are all of the costal and cities inland that will be completely destroyed by those same waves. Except instead of 35ft waves like Japan's Tsunami, these will be 1500 plus food and will go a hundred plus miles inland.

Starting to get the picture of God's wrath now DP? No? Ok here is the comes the rest of it.

3rd Trumpet - John describes something like a star, like a giant torch, which he called "wormwood," which falls on a third of the rivers and fresh water. And many people will die from drinking the water.

4th Trumpet - The sun, moon and stars are stuck by God causing them to be darkened by a third. The result being that the earth will be receiving a third less light both night and day. There are no fatalities related to this trumpet. But, I believe that it is setting the tone for the next three trumpets, which are referred to as "Woes." And the reason that they are called "Woes" is because they are all demonic in nature.

5th Trumpet/1st Woe - A star, symbolic for an angel, falls from heaven to the earth having the key to the Abyss, which he opens. Out from the Abyss come demonic beings that have the appearance of locusts, looking like horses prepared for battle, they have hair like women's hair, teeth like lions teeth and faces like human faces and tails with stingers like that of a scorpion. They have one purpose and that is to torment the inhabitants of the earth for five months with the sting like that of a scorpion. They have a king over them who is the angel of the Abyss, who is that beast who once was, now is not and yet will come up out of the Abyss. He is the same beast who will kill the two witnesses and will control the antichrist. No fatalities here, for scripture states that people will try to die, but death will flee away.

6th Trumpet/2nd Woe - Four evil angels who, at the writing of this post, are bound at the great river Euphrates, will be released by that angel who sounds the 6th trumpet and they will gather 200 million demonic beings and will kill a third of mankind. Combining the fatalities of the 4th seal and the fatalities here at the 6th Trumpet, the number would equal approx. 4.5 billion people dead before the middle of the seven years. But that is not including the fatalities that will result from the 1st, 2nd and 3rd Trumpets nor the fatalities as result of the seven bowl judgment. Now go back to the top of this post and reread the prophecy of Zephaniah and Isaiah. Any light bulbs going on?

7th Trumpet/3rd Woe - Satan and his angels are thrown out of heaven at the middle mark of the seven years and restricted to the earth, which elicits the following response:

"rejoice, you heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has gone down to you!He is filled with fury, because he knows that his time is short.”

Did you notice the 3rd woe in the first part of the verse? At that time, Satan and his angels will be able to focus their full malice upon the earth.

====================================

1st Bowl - The angel pours his bowl out on the earth and painful, ugly, sores break out on the people who worship the beast and receive his mark on their hand or forehead.

2nd Bowl - The angel pours his bowl out on the sea and it turns into literal blood

3rd Bowl - the angel pours out his bowl on all of the rivers and fresh drinking water and they turn into literal blood. The only water not turned into blood is the Euphrates River and that so it can be dried up to make way for the kings of the east. No salt water to desalinate and no fresh drinking water.

4th Bowl - The angel pours out his bowl on the sun so that the sun scorches the inhabitants of the earth with intense heat. And, there's no water to drink and no ocean water to jump into. How many fatalities will result from this?


5th Bowl - The angel pours out his bowl on the throne of the beast plunging it into spiritual darkness. The people will gnaw their tongues in anguish because of the pains and their sores and instead of repenting and asking God for mercy, they curse him.


6th bowl - Three demonic beings that emerge from the dragon, beast and false prophet go throughout the entire earth to gather the kings and their armies for battle at Armageddon, where they will all be killed by that double-edged sword that proceeds form Christ's mouth, which is symbolic for the word of God.

7th Bowl - The angel pours out his bowl into the air and the greatest earthquake to hit the earth since mankind has been on it hits, which results in the cities of the nations collapsing, and the mountains and the islands disappear, and giant hail stones weighing from 75 to 100 lbs. world-wide.


Sometime shortly after the 7th bowl is completed, Jesus returns to the earth to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom.

DP said: From the start Ahwatukee is trying to establish a lie in your mind, that the time of "great tribulation" is the time of God's wrath, when it is not.

From this brief description of God's coming wrath, for those of you who understand it, please respond. For DP said that I was establishing a lie in your minds and so I was moved to list these plagues of wrath known as the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments to prove my point and DP as the liar.

"Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near."

 

[Jimbone]

Oh,btw,for you post tribs and your Darby six-guns,you will be happy to note that many catholic websites quote your same Darby mess.

The Catholics stand on the same "doctrines established by dead men" as their cornerstone also.

That explains why scripture is met by these historical rabbit trails.

Well can you please provide 1 source that verifies that anyone taught or believed the pre-trib rapture before Darby, because until you can show me actual verifiable proof then your just blowing hot air. I'm not even saying there is not any, but I have never seen anyone provide any solid proof that a pre-trib rapture, as is taught today, was ever taught before then. I personally am so very thankful that I wasn't raised in the church and I can just learn the bible with no preconceive concepts already programmed into my head. When I read the bible I don't see anything about a pre-trib rapture, and without all the charts, timelines, and a guru to explain it, I don't see how anyone else could either. Then there are people like you that are offended to the core when someone disagrees with what you believe so much that you get strait up disrespectful towards them over it, like they attacked you personally. Again I am SO THANKFUL I wasn't raised into believing any certain thing, and came come at it fresh and new. I am not saying my view is without a doubt the correct one, but I am saying from reading the text and taking it for what it says I don't see the pre-trib rapture at all, to be honest it says as clear as day that it is AFTER the man of sin is revealed. I would also really appreciate your sources showing that anyone before Darby taught this pre-trib thing the way we are taught it today. Thanks and please don't get angry with me, this is an honest request and not a personal attack.

 

[pottersclay]

Imo Jesus is not talking about just the activities of man, to be honest those activities are quite common. I think he was pointing out what the fallen angels were doing and also the giants of the land.

The beast seems to have supernatural power not a common man by any means. God judged the earth once before in the days of noah. Throes days were un common as well....why?
Who in there right mind would want to war with God ....man? After seeing him in the clouds....I think not.
The depravity of man to sink that low is to hard to believe.

 

[abcdef]

Hello abcdef,

First, I can assure that I avoiding anything. What are the specific questions that you have? I am more than happy to respond, as my answers are always based on Scripture. But please make them one at a time and a precise. What I mean is, don't go to L.A. by Omaha with your questions.

Thanks!

I did ask you the questions in post #78.

3 questions.

Very specific.

 

[abcdef]

The greek has it as "trial"

10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

Hour of trial coming upon the face of the earth and it's inhabitants is what it says.
Then,the very next sentence is "I come quickly"

Brother Popeye,

I wouldn't use this example as "proof" of anything, but as I was thinking about your response this thought occurred to me,

If the trib period is represented as an hour in R 3:10,

What about the 1/2 hour of silence in R 8:1?

Wouldn't that 1/2 hour amount to half of the trib period? Ha Ha

I'm not serious about the comparison,

I just thought you might enjoy seeing it.

 

[popeye]

Well can you please provide 1 source that verifies that anyone taught or believed the pre-trib rapture before Darby, because until you can show me actual verifiable proof then your just blowing hot air. I'm not even saying there is not any, but I have never seen anyone provide any solid proof that a pre-trib rapture, as is taught today, was ever taught before then. I personally am so very thankful that I wasn't raised in the church and I can just learn the bible with no preconceive concepts already programmed into my head. When I read the bible I don't see anything about a pre-trib rapture, and without all the charts, timelines, and a guru to explain it, I don't see how anyone else could either. Then there are people like you that are offended to the core when someone disagrees with what you believe so much that you get strait up disrespectful towards them over it, like they attacked you personally. Again I am SO THANKFUL I wasn't raised into believing any certain thing, and came come at it fresh and new. I am not saying my view is without a doubt the correct one, but I am saying from reading the text and taking it for what it says I don't see the pre-trib rapture at all, to be honest it says as clear as day that it is AFTER the man of sin is revealed. I would also really appreciate your sources showing that anyone before Darby taught this pre-trib thing the way we are taught it today. Thanks and please don't get angry with me, this is an honest request and not a personal attack.

My position is scripture based. I never have and never will get permission from those dead people for what to believe.


There were things,just as now,that they could not agree on.

But as to your request, would the words of Jesus be early enough?

"...but pray that you may be counted worthy to escape the things about to come upon the earth,and stand before the son of man"

".. Because you have kept my commandments I will keep you from the trial that is about to come upon the earth"

"...and while the foolish went to buy,the wise went into the marriage chamber with the groom,and the door was shut.."

According to Jesus himself,we are gathered BEFORE THE GT

 

[abcdef]

The greek has it as "trial"

10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

Hour of trial coming upon the face of the earth and it's inhabitants is what it says.
Then,the very next sentence is "I come quickly"

Brother Popeye,

R 2:10, Written to the church in Smyrna,

"Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold,the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life."

What about this ten day "trib" period?

What can we tell about it?
-------
Does it Also apply to the time of trouble?

Can we MAKE it apply to the time of trouble?

If not, what "time" does it refer to?
------
If the trib is referred to as an hour in R 3:10, how long is this "ten days" in R 2:10?

Are they the same amount of time?
-----------

Yes, we gain spiritual knowledge from reading the text,

But who exactly is this written to?
---------------------
It MUST be true,

So the church in Smyrna, probably did have a literal time of trouble that lasted ten days (literal or prophetic),

So, isn't this scripture fulfilled?

If it is, can we say that the ten days apply to some other time also, without scriptural proof?
------------------

This is the same situation as R 3:10.

If Jesus said that the hour of trial, (thank you), was to happen to that congregation, then it surely did.

Wouldn't the text be fulfilled already?

If it is fulfilled, should we try to read more into it, than what is already there?

 

[abcdef]

My position is scripture based. I never have and never will get permission from those dead people for what to believe.


There were things,just as now,that they could not agree on.

But as to your request, would the words of Jesus be early enough?

"...but pray that you may be counted worthy to escape the things about to come upon the earth,and stand before the son of man"

".. Because you have kept my commandments I will keep you from the trial that is about to come upon the earth"

"...and while the foolish went to buy,the wise went into the marriage chamber with the groom,and the door was shut.."

According to Jesus himself,we are gathered BEFORE THE GT

Matt 25:1-13, the Ten Virgins

Some say that this is a picture of the destruction of Jerusalem,

Others say that this is a picture of the time between the dest. of Jeru. and the coming of Christ.
-----
See that the story ends after the door is shut, and the virgins knock.

There is no trib. after that.
------------------

According to the pre-trib time line, doesn't the trib in Matt 24, come before the story of the 10 virgins (Matt 25)?

The Trib happens, and then Jesus comes, in the story of the virgins.

Isn't that the order of events?

(I don't know if you agree with this time line at all, at this point, it's just an assumption on my part, please correct me as to your understanding, if I misinterpret your viewpoint),
==============

Another point that I would like to ask you about is,

How long do you think it was, between the time that the call came, and the time of the actual arrival of the bridegroom?

It seems like they did have some time between the two events.

Time enough to ask for oil,

Time enough to run to the 7-11 for oil, ha ha,

But not enough time to get back.

It would seem as if there was some time between the "call" and the "arrival".

How long, do you think that the time was?
-------------------
(If you are willing to hear it, The Bridegroom is Coming, 3 1/2 days after Jerusalem falls to Iran and it's allies, the Kings of the East, across the Euphrates)

 

[abcdef]

Hello abcdef,

First, I can assure that I avoiding anything. What are the specific questions that you have? I am more than happy to respond, as my answers are always based on Scripture. But please make them one at a time and a precise. What I mean is, don't go to L.A. by Omaha with your questions.

Thanks!

Fair enough.

I won't go to L.A. by Omaha with my questions,

If you will Stop going to L.A. through Omaha with your answers ! Ha Ha!
-----
My Brother,

I just want to say how much I enjoy our discussions.

I have learned a lot from you.

And you have stimulated my Bible studies each time we talk, agree or disagree,

We disagree on some prophecies, but are united in our love of God's Word.

We agree that we will meet Him in the air and forever be with Him.

We are both waiting for that day.

You are patient and respectful, and I thank you for that.

Brother John

 

[Ahwatukee]

Fair enough.

I won't go to L.A. by Omaha with my questions,

If you will Stop going to L.A. through Omaha with your answers ! Ha Ha!
-----
My Brother,

I just want to say how much I enjoy our discussions.

I have learned a lot from you.

And you have stimulated my Bible studies each time we talk, agree or disagree,

We disagree on some prophecies, but are united in our love of God's Word.

We agree that we will meet Him in the air and forever be with Him.

We are both waiting for that day.

You are patient and respectful, and I thank you for that.

Brother John

Hello John,

Ok, so what specific question or questions do you have that I did not answer? I know of one that you did bring up, but at the end of the post I said that I would answer it in another post. Therefore, I will answer that one here, which was regarding the seven years. Regarding this, Dan.9:24 says:

"Seventy ‘sevens’ are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place."

The on-set of the seventy 'sevens" or seventy seven year periods, begins when Nehemiah who was the cup bearer to king Artaxerxes who at Nehemiah's request, gave Nehemiah letters (decrees) for safe passage through the Trans-Euphrates and letters to obtain timber from the kings forest to restore and rebuild Jerusalem, as recorded in Neh.2:7.

"Know and understand this: From the time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven ‘sevens,’ and sixty-two ‘sevens.’ It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble.

Seven 'sevens to restore and rebuild Jerusalem (7 years x 7 years = 49 years)

"After the sixty-two ‘sevens,’ the Anointed One will be put to death and will have nothing."[SUP][/SUP]

Sixty-two 'sevens' (62 years x 7 years = 434 years)

49 years x 434 = 483 years or sixty-nine seven year periods

Seven, seven year periods to restore and rebuild Jerusalem and add on sixty-two seven year periods which brings us to 483 years. The date of Nehemiah receiving the decree is recognized by scholars at being around 445 BC. When you count from this date adding 483 years, it brings us into the AD 30's, which would be in fulfillment of the Anointed One/Jesus Christ being crucified. The restoring to rebuild Jerusalem and the Anointed One being cut off fulfills sixty-nine of the seventy 'sevens or 483 years of the prophecy of seventy 'sevens'. Therefore, there is one seven year period that has yet to be fulfilled, which is as follows:

"He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’[SUP] [/SUP]he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him."

The "He" in the verse above, would have to refer back to the last person spoken of, which was "the ruler of the people" in the previous verse. Regarding the last seven years, we have the following details:

The ruler will:

* Establishes a covenant for one 'seven" i.e. seven years

* In the middle of the seven years "he" will put a stop to the sacrifices and offerings

* "He" will set up an abomination that causes desolation (set up in the holy place Mt.24:15)

* until the end that is decreed is poured out on him (the ruler)

In Mt.24:15, Jesus quotes Dan.9:27 when giving a detailed account of the signs leading up to his return to end the age, he says the following:

"So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak."

We have seen that sixty-nine of the seven year periods have already been fulfilled with the Anointed One being cut off, which was Christ crucified. We can also deduce that since Jesus is quoting from Daniel regarding that last seven years as still being was future from the time that he quoted it, that it had not yet taken place, else he would not have spoken of it in the future tense saying "when you see the abomination." That said, none of the events of that last seven year period and the ruler have not been fulfilled. 30 something years after Jesus quoted Daniel, the temple was destroyed by Titus Vespasian and his armies. Consequently, none of the prophesies regarding that last seven years were fulfilled before the temple was destroyed and therefore must still come to pass, for it is written in God's word and God cannot lie.

At the end of the sixty-nine seven year periods when Christ was crucified, God left off with that last seven years of the decreed for Israel and Jerusalem and began to build His church, which is currently still being built. Once the church is completed, then the promise of John 14:1-3 and 1 Thes.4:13-18 will take place with Jesus gathering His church off the earth. After that event, that ruler spoken of in Dan.9:24-27, will make his covenant for one 'seven' and thereby fulfilling that last seven years of the decree.

He will make his agreement with Israel, which will allow them to build their long-awaited temple and in the middle of that seven year period (3 1/2 years later) he will set up that abomination. As a side note, I personally believe that the "image" that the false prophet orders the inhabitants of the earth to make in honor of the antichrist/beast as recorded in Rev.13:14-15, will be that abomination.

The reference to the last part of Dan.9:27 which says "until the end that is decreed is poured out on him," is referring to when Jesus returns to the earth to end the age, where the beast and false prophet are captured and thrown alive into the lake of fire. Regarding this, Dan.7:11,25 also confirms that during time the beast will only have authority during the last 3 1/2 years, where at the end he will be thrown into the fire:

"Then I continued to watch because of the boastful words the horn was speaking. I kept looking until the beast was slain and its body destroyed and thrown into the blazing fire. "

"He will speak against the Most High and oppress his holy people and try to change the set times and the laws. The holy people will be delivered into his hands for a time, times and half a time.


I hope that this helps in understanding of that last seven years, which is the same time period that God will be pouring out his wrath upon a Christ rejecting world via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.[SUP]


[/SUP]

The "desolation" that is caused from the setting up of that abomination is recorded in Mt.2415-21 and Rev.12:6,14. When that abomination is set up in the holy place, this will cause the desolation i.e. the emptying of Israel and Judea. They will flee out into the desert and will be led to that place that God will have prepared for them where they will be cared for 1,260, also referred to as a time, times and a half a time, which is that last 3 1/2 years of that last seven year period. They will remain there, being cared for until Jesus returns to end the age.

 

[popeye]

Matt 25:1-13, the Ten Virgins

Some say that this is a picture of the destruction of Jerusalem,

Others say that this is a picture of the time between the dest. of Jeru. and the coming of Christ.
-----
See that the story ends after the door is shut, and the virgins knock.

There is no trib. after that.
------------------

According to the pre-trib time line, doesn't the trib in Matt 24, come before the story of the 10 virgins (Matt 25)?

The Trib happens, and then Jesus comes, in the story of the virgins.

Isn't that the order of events?

(I don't know if you agree with this time line at all, at this point, it's just an assumption on my part, please correct me as to your understanding, if I misinterpret your viewpoint),
==============

Another point that I would like to ask you about is,

How long do you think it was, between the time that the call came, and the time of the actual arrival of the bridegroom?

It seems like they did have some time between the two events.

Time enough to ask for oil,

Time enough to run to the 7-11 for oil, ha ha,

But not enough time to get back.

It would seem as if there was some time between the "call" and the "arrival".

How long, do you think that the time was?
-------------------
(If you are willing to hear it, The Bridegroom is Coming, 3 1/2 days after Jerusalem falls to Iran and it's allies, the Kings of the East, across the Euphrates)

Nothing fits that parable. Only pre trib.

The foolish were assigned to weeping and gnashing of teeth. That would be anguish and suffering. ( the GT)
All ten were saved. (virgins,pure,undefiled)
The gathering to heaven by the groom is the heart of the parable.

Much of it has to be distorted to fit other formats.

 

[EarnestQ]

I will show how confused... Ahwatukee is with Bible Scripture,

From the start Ahwatukee is trying to establish a lie in your mind, that the time of "great tribulation" is the time of God's wrath, when it is not.
That false idea is what Ahwatukee was trying to establish in your minds.
That reveals how confused Ahwatukee is with his interpretation of Bible Scripture.
Again, Ahwatukee's interpretation is slanted away from the actual meaning of those Scriptures
He is mixed up, and it's because of the doctrines of men.

Ahwatukee has not properly understood the above Scriptures.

There again, Ahwatukee makes the mistake
he is bearing false witness,

abcdef


With respect, I would like to suggest a few “revisions” in your response above, if I may.


First, WE ARE ALL CONFUSED AND MIXED UP in our understanding of the Scriptures in one way or another. You may well be correct in all that you posted, but to insult Ahwatukee because, in your opinion, you are correct in understanding one area of the Scriptures and, from your perspective, he is not, will generally not encourage a person to thoughtfully consider your position.


What’s more, there is a good chance, the nature of life being what it is, that there are things about the Bible he understands better than yourself. (Although I am firmly against Dispensationalism in general, I admit that I have benefited quite a bit from many who hold that position.)


“Don’t attack the messenger just because he believes every part of his message to be true.”


(FWIW, “lying” implies that he knows the truth and is intentionally attempting to deceive. I am confident that Ahwatukee is not “lying” but has simply [and innocently] been instructed into his position, as I once was. Charging him with lying is, in my opinion, “counterproductive” to say the least.)


It is simply human nature to resist and negatively react against such accusations.


But, respectfully, the more personal assaults one makes against those who disagree with him, the less Christian maturity one is demonstrating,in my opinion.


I often take this to mean that the less they understand and obey the Bible in the first place. I am merely indicating my emotional first reaction. After my first emotional reaction, I try to thoughtfully consider what they say anyway.


(See how I didn’t make any direct accusations against you?

Nor did I mean any.

)



The point is that even when one is unconditionally correct (as I am right now.

), I am “pretty sure” we are to demonstrate a gentle helpful instructive spirit towards towards our brethren who disagree with us.


If a given person is, HYPOTHETICALLY, “indoctrinated” into an incorrect theology, calling them names and insulting them will do little to help them break free of that indoctrination. (Sorry, but that is the nature of us silly humans.)


However, I trust that by treating a person respectfully, as a brother or sister, and trying to work with them through how they might be misunderstanding the truth of God’s Word, that is, His one and only human born Son, God can work in their heart and mind and life to bring them closer to Himself. I cannot argue anyone closer to God. I can only pray for them and try to present the correct information on God’s behalf.


I also trust that no matter how “wrong” I think they are, God might want me to learn something from them, at the very least, how I can better reflect Him to them as I help them work through their thinking process and maybe even support them as they break through their “indoctrination”.


You see, I have been, and still am, indoctrinated in any number of ways, and God has been very patient working with me as I tried to figure out what the truth is about life, the Bible, and Himself. I want Him to continue to be patient with me and help me understand where I am wrong, and more than anything else, help me be more like Him.


So, by trying to treat others as He has already treated me, I am learning a little bit more about what it means to be godly.


I make no claims about having accomplished anything like that, but I am hoping that I am at least smelling the general direction of what that might be.


I invite you to simply ask God for clarification in this.


Thank you.


Before I joined CC, I was very confused and unconfident in my thinking. Now I am very confident we are all confused in our thinking.

 

[abcdef]

Hello John,

Ok, so what specific question or questions do you have that I did not answer? I know of one that you did bring up, but at the end of the post I said that I would answer it in another post. Therefore, I will answer that one here, which was regarding the seven years. Regarding this, Dan.9:24 says:

"Seventy ‘sevens’ are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place."

The on-set of the seventy 'sevens" or seventy seven year periods, begins when Nehemiah who was the cup bearer to king Artaxerxes who at Nehemiah's request, gave Nehemiah letters (decrees) for safe passage through the Trans-Euphrates and letters to obtain timber from the kings forest to restore and rebuild Jerusalem, as recorded in Neh.2:7.

"Know and understand this: From the time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven ‘sevens,’ and sixty-two ‘sevens.’ It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble.

Seven 'sevens to restore and rebuild Jerusalem (7 years x 7 years = 49 years)

"After the sixty-two ‘sevens,’ the Anointed One will be put to death and will have nothing."

Sixty-two 'sevens' (62 years x 7 years = 434 years)

49 years x 434 = 483 years or sixty-nine seven year periods

Seven, seven year periods to restore and rebuild Jerusalem and add on sixty-two seven year periods which brings us to 483 years. The date of Nehemiah receiving the decree is recognized by scholars at being around 445 BC. When you count from this date adding 483 years, it brings us into the AD 30's, which would be in fulfillment of the Anointed One/Jesus Christ being crucified. The restoring to rebuild Jerusalem and the Anointed One being cut off fulfills sixty-nine of the seventy 'sevens or 483 years of the prophecy of seventy 'sevens'. Therefore, there is one seven year period that has yet to be fulfilled, which is as follows:

"He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him."

The "He" in the verse above, would have to refer back to the last person spoken of, which was "the ruler of the people" in the previous verse. Regarding the last seven years, we have the following details:

The ruler will:

* Establishes a covenant for one 'seven" i.e. seven years

* In the middle of the seven years "he" will put a stop to the sacrifices and offerings

* "He" will set up an abomination that causes desolation (set up in the holy place Mt.24:15)

* until the end that is decreed is poured out on him (the ruler)

In Mt.24:15, Jesus quotes Dan.9:27 when giving a detailed account of the signs leading up to his return to end the age, he says the following:

"So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak."

We have seen that sixty-nine of the seven year periods have already been fulfilled with the Anointed One being cut off, which was Christ crucified. We can also deduce that since Jesus is quoting from Daniel regarding that last seven years as still being was future from the time that he quoted it, that it had not yet taken place, else he would not have spoken of it in the future tense saying "when you see the abomination." That said, none of the events of that last seven year period and the ruler have not been fulfilled. 30 something years after Jesus quoted Daniel, the temple was destroyed by Titus Vespasian and his armies. Consequently, none of the prophesies regarding that last seven years were fulfilled before the temple was destroyed and therefore must still come to pass, for it is written in God's word and God cannot lie.

At the end of the sixty-nine seven year periods when Christ was crucified, God left off with that last seven years of the decreed for Israel and Jerusalem and began to build His church, which is currently still being built. Once the church is completed, then the promise of John 14:1-3 and 1 Thes.4:13-18 will take place with Jesus gathering His church off the earth. After that event, that ruler spoken of in Dan.9:24-27, will make his covenant for one 'seven' and thereby fulfilling that last seven years of the decree.

He will make his agreement with Israel, which will allow them to build their long-awaited temple and in the middle of that seven year period (3 1/2 years later) he will set up that abomination. As a side note, I personally believe that the "image" that the false prophet orders the inhabitants of the earth to make in honor of the antichrist/beast as recorded in Rev.13:14-15, will be that abomination.

The reference to the last part of Dan.9:27 which says "until the end that is decreed is poured out on him," is referring to when Jesus returns to the earth to end the age, where the beast and false prophet are captured and thrown alive into the lake of fire. Regarding this, Dan.7:11,25 also confirms that during time the beast will only have authority during the last 3 1/2 years, where at the end he will be thrown into the fire:

"Then I continued to watch because of the boastful words the horn was speaking. I kept looking until the beast was slain and its body destroyed and thrown into the blazing fire. "

"He will speak against the Most High and oppress his holy people and try to change the set times and the laws. The holy people will be delivered into his hands for a time, times and half a time.


I hope that this helps in understanding of that last seven years, which is the same time period that God will be pouring out his wrath upon a Christ rejecting world via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.[SUP]


[/SUP]

The "desolation" that is caused from the setting up of that abomination is recorded in Mt.2415-21 and Rev.12:6,14. When that abomination is set up in the holy place, this will cause the desolation i.e. the emptying of Israel and Judea. They will flee out into the desert and will be led to that place that God will have prepared for them where they will be cared for 1,260, also referred to as a time, times and a half a time, which is that last 3 1/2 years of that last seven year period. They will remain there, being cared for until Jesus returns to end the age.

Brother Ahwatukee,

I must admit that I haven't returned to this study of Daniel since our last discussion.

So I'll have to back there, if the planet lasts that long.
-----
You really don't understand what we are about to be facing, and how quickly things will begin to happen.

We are the camp of the saints, the gentile/wild branches.

We and Jerusalem are being surrounded. Israel is surrounded already.

Rockets and bombs fall every day.

And what mountains will they flee to? Masada?

THERE IS NO WHERE TO GO !!!!

Israel will be destroyed!!!!

Jerusalem is about to fall!!!

The time is that short.
----------
I am not the one to lift the veil.

I can only reason with you using God's Word and love.

The truth is there, in the Bible.
----------------

I will try to build on something that we both believe is true.

R 17:10-11,

v 10, And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

v 11, And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

We know that the entire beast is Rome, tail, heads, horns, all are Rome, one.

We both agree that the 6th head was the Caesar of John's time.

I will ask your opinion, one question,

Who exactly do you believe is the seventh head?

 

[Ahwatukee]

Hello EarnestQ,

I am confident that Ahwatukee is not “lying” but has simply [and innocently] been instructed into his position, as I once was.

People have assumed that the information that I am proclaiming on these posts comes from another teacher or teachers that have instructed me, which could not be further from the truth. And I am thankful that I have not been swayed by men to adopt their own positions regarding Biblical subjects.

Everything that I am sharing here comes from many years of personal study, cross-referencing scripture and comparing the same scriptures side by side with the major translations.

I am not a reader of books by other teachers, depending on them teach me the word of God, nor a video or YouTube adherent. I believe that there is no other place that the truth of God's word can be known but by searching out His word. So in the future, please refrain from inferring that "I have been instructed" because I haven't been. My only instructor has been the word of God through the confirmation of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Sheepman]

Hello EarnestQ,



People have assumed that the information that I am proclaiming on these posts comes from another teacher or teachers that have instructed me, which could not be further from the truth. And I am thankful that I have not been swayed by men to adopt their own positions regarding Biblical subjects.

Everything that I am sharing here comes from many years of personal study, cross-referencing scripture and comparing the same scriptures side by side with the major translations.

I am not a reader of books by other teachers, depending on them teach me the word of God, nor a video or YouTube adherent. I believe that there is no other place that the truth of God's word can be known but by searching out His word. So in the future, please refrain from inferring that "I have been instructed" because I haven't been. My only instructor has been the word of God through the confirmation of the Holy Spirit. [/COLOR][/SIZE]

Thats a great answer brother. Keep your integrity just like Jesus said. Its so sad when people use them bibles to mob the joy out of you.

You seem to be a great man in Christ.

Lookin forward reeding the tribulationstuff.

It should never be a topic that separate brothers and sisters.

It needs to be discussed now more than ever.

I lean towards posttrip unfortunately. But I pray everyday that if I will have to be crucified for my King I will do it as Stephanus did when he was stoned to death and just marveled at the glory he saw while getting beat up.