the rapture

DP · Nov 21, 2015

Look again, you've missed something.

Apostle John's concept of "antichrist" is given in the singular tense, and in the plural tense with "many antichrists". It's because of the subject of the "mystery of iniquity" that Apostle Paul mentioned in 2 Thess.2 while also warning us about that specific false one that will sit in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God, and exalting himself over all that is called God, or that is worshiped.

In reality per Scripture, that's TWO objects, a singular false one, and then the many false ones.

Our Lord Jesus covered the same idea in His Olivet Discourse. In Matt.24:5 He warned us about the idea of many who come in His name saying they are Christ. That's the "many antichrists" of John (1 John 2:18).

But in the Matt.24:23-26 verses, our Lord Jesus is warning us of a specific false one, the one that's to come to sit in the temple that Paul taught in 2 Thess.2.

Matt 24:21-26
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

23 Then if any man shall say unto you, "Lo, here is Christ, or there"; believe it not.

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25 Behold, I have told you before.

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, "Behold, he is in the desert"; go not forth: "behold, he is in the secret chambers"; believe it not.
KJV

Those parts in Red are about specific false messiah that is to come, the one of 2 Thess.2:3-4 that Jesus will destroy with the brightness of His coming. The KJV translators translated Greek pseudochristos to "false Christs" there, when the warnings just before it and right after it are in the singular tense (the parts in red). This is why Dr. James Strong in his Strong's Exhaustive Concordance has the translation of pseudochristos as 'a spurious Messiah' (Strong's no.5580), pointing to a singular false messiah.

So what was already... at work in the world? The "many antichrists" which is what Paul's "mystery of iniquity" is about, and also what our Lord Jesus' warning about many false prophets coming in His name saying they are Christ. We have already had many examples of that working in our time, fakes who say they are Christ.

But the one of Matt.24:23-26 and 2 Thess.2:4, which is also the same "another beast" of Rev.13:11 forward, we have NOT seen that one appear on earth yet, for he is to come at the end during the tribulation, and is that beast king of Rev.17, the "vile person" of Dan.11, and the "little horn" of Dan.8. It is he that the ten horns (ten kings) of Rev.17 will give their power to for "one hour".

DP · Nov 21, 2015

Ahwatukee said:

You are not just disagreeing with me. You disagreeing with the Scripture as written. I'll show you again...

6th Seal
Rev.6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
KJV

7th Vial
Rev 16:18-21
18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of His wrath.
20And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.
KJV

Ahwatukee · Nov 21, 2015

prove-all said:

Me again,

I also wanted to point out some thing regarding the events of the horsemen, as you said, "taking place throughout history:" These seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are not meant to be passive events that take place in the background of history. But, they are to take place within close proximity to each other like a woman having birth pains and are meant to be unavoidable to the inhabitants of the earth when they begin to take place. As I have said before and as scripture demonstrates, these events of wrath are meant to decimate the immediate population of the earth during that last generation and for the dismantling of all human government in order to make way for Christ's kingdom, which is what Daniel 2:31-45 is demonstrating.

When these things begin to take place, they will be very obvious to those who will be here and who know the word of God. There will be no need to guess at whether or not they are taking place, like people try to proclaim today. Also, though the spirit of lawlessness is here and there are many who are proclaiming and will continue to proclaim to be the Messiah, there is a specific man coming, that antichrist who is an actual person, who will be controlled by the beast that comes up out of the Abyss and who will fulfill all that is written of him.

DP · Nov 21, 2015

prove-all said:

Yes, those servants of the devil that appear as ministers of righteousness are the "many antichrists" and "mystery of iniquity" working. They are the ones who say they are Christ of Matt.24:5.

But Paul's idea there that even Satan is "transformed" as "an angel of light" is about the coming pseudo-Messiah to sit in the temple like Paul showed in 2 Thess.2:4. The Greek for "transformed" can also mean disguised. That one Apostle Paul point to in that 2 Cor.11 chapter as the "another Jesus", which is the actual meaning of "antichrist" in the Greek (anti can also mean in place of or instead of, and Greek christos of course means Christ).

Ahwatukee · Nov 21, 2015

DP said:

You are not just disagreeing with me. You disagreeing with the Scripture as written. I'll show you again...

6th Seal
Rev.6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
KJV

7th Vial
Rev 16:18-21
18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of His wrath.
20And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.
KJV

No! I am disagreeing with your interpretation of scripture.

KJV1611 · Nov 21, 2015

DP said:

Yes, those servants of the devil that appear as ministers of righteousness are the "many antichrists" and "mystery of iniquity" working. They are the ones who say they are Christ of Matt.24:5.

But Paul's idea there that even Satan is "transformed" as "an angel of light" is about the coming pseudo-Messiah to sit in the temple like Paul showed in 2 Thess.2:4. The Greek for "transformed" can also mean disguised. That one Apostle Paul point to in that 2 Cor.11 chapter as the "another Jesus", which is the actual meaning of "antichrist" in the Greek (anti can also mean in place of or instead of, and Greek christos of course means Christ).

Which one is the correct translation transformed or disguished?

Ahwatukee · Nov 21, 2015

The two earthquakes that you list above, one taking place at the 6th seal and the other at the 7th bowl are two different earthquakes. You are trying to make them the same one and I am saying that the first one, though a great earthquake, is not the same as the quake that take place at the 7th bowl judgment. At the first seal, though the mountains and islands are moved/stirred, the still remain. The greatest earthquake at the 7th bowl is worse than the one that takes place at the 6th seal, which causes the mountains and islands to disappear. When you try to make the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments running parallel, then you are not keeping with scripture. For scripture has them laid out in order and you are changing that, where I am not. Therefore, it is you would are in disagreement with this interpretation. As I said, if you want to believe this interpretation, you are free to do so.

prove-all · Nov 21, 2015

[the actual meaning of "antichrist" in the Greek (anti can also mean in place of or instead of]

the Vicars of Christ?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vicar_of_Christ
a vicar is of "earthly representative of God or Christ"
person acting as parish priest in place of Christ.(the pope)
now used in Catholicism to refer to the bishops,more specifically to the Bishop of Rome .

Simon Peter Versus Simon Magus:
Who Was The Real First Pope ?

The whole population of Samaria gave earnest heed to Simon.
All those in Samaria, from the least to the greatest, believed him!

In fact, the people worshiped him as the “great power of God.”
They believed he was God in the flesh.

This man is known in secular history as Simon Magus.
The surname “magus” reveals that he was a member of the priestly caste of ancient Persia.
this Simon was a priest of the Babylonian mystery religion.

The sin of simony, or paying for position and influence in the church, is named for Simon.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simony

This account actually reveals the beginning of the great false church described
in the book of Revelation as “the great whore” and “Mystery, Babylon the Great,
the Mother of Harlots and Abominations of the Earth”!

Simon Magus was a foundational role in the history of that church!

Satan used this man to begin building that church. It all began right here in bible.
Christ raised up His Church in a.d. 31—and Simon Magus immediately
came on the scene in a.d. 33! That is not difficult to prove.
Even Catholics will tell you today that their church began in a.d. 33!

Wherever God’s Church is, you will always find a counterfeit religion.

It has committed many violent crimes—especially against God’s true Church
(e.g. Revelation 17:1-6).

-Primacy of Simon Peter
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primacy_of_Simon_Peter

Primacy of Simon Peter, also known as Petrine primacy (from the Latin Petrus for "Peter"),
is the position of preeminence that is attributed to the Apostle Peter among the Twelve Apostles.

It is to be distinguished from the primacy of the Bishop of Rome, also known as the Roman primacy,
whose link with the primacy of the Apostle Peter[ is disputed and is none biblical]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primacy_of_the_Bishop_of_Rome

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Peter
The Roman Catholic Church considers [but not true] him to be the first Pope,
ordained by Jesus in the "Rock of My Church" dialogue in Matthew 16:18.

-The Pontifex Maximus
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontifex_Maximus

The Pontifex Maximus (Latin, literally: "greatest pontiff" or "greatest bridge-builder")
was the high priest of the College of Pontiffs (Collegium Pontificum) in ancient Rome.
This was the most important position in the ancient Roman religion

The word "pontifex" later became a term used for Christian bishops,[4]
including the Bishop of Rome,

the title of "Pontifex Maximus" was applied within the Roman Catholic Church
to the Pope as its chief bishop

-Nicolaism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicolaism

Nicolaism (also Nicholaism, Nicolationism, or Nicolaitanism) is a Christian heresy,
first mentioned (twice) in the Book of Revelation of the New Testament, whose adherents
were called Nicolaitans, Nicolaitanes, or Nicolaites. According to Revelation 2, vv. 6 and 15,
they were known in the cities of Ephesus and Pergamum.

In this chapter, the church at Ephesus is commended for "hating the deeds of the Nicolaitans,
which I also hate" and the church in Pergamos is blamed "So hast thou also them that hold
the doctrine of the Nicolaitans".

Several of the early church fathers, including Irenaeus, Hippolytus,[2] Epiphanius, and Theodoret
mentioned this group, and stated that the deacon Nicolas was the author of the heresy and the sect
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catego...istian_martyrs

The root of the word Nicolaitans comes from Greek nikao, to conquer or overcome,
and laos, which means people and which the word laity comes from.

The two words together especially means the destruction of the people and refers
to the earliest form of what we call a priestly order or clergy which later on in
church history divided people and allowed for leadership other than those led
by the spirit of the risen Lord.

A good translation of Nicolaitan would be "those who prevail over the people."
This clerical system later developed into the papal hierarchy of priests and clergy
lording over the flock.

The Council of Trent stated, "If anyone shall say that there is not in the Catholic Church a
hierarchy established by the divine ordination, consisting of bishops, presbyters and ministers,
let him be anathema."

first horseman, false religion that started long ago

DP · Nov 21, 2015

Ahwatukee said:

No, you are disagreeing with the timing of these Scripture witnesses...

6th Seal

Rev.6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
KJV

7th Vial

Rev 16:18-21
18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of His wrath.
20And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.
KJV

Do you say then, that every island and mountains being moved is NOT the same timing???

DP · Nov 21, 2015

prove-all said:

No sense in me responding to all that, because the coming Antichrist, i.e, pseudo-Messiah, is not a Catholic bishop of bishops, i.e, pope. That is what many in the early Church had thought about Rome and the Roman emperors also, and then the later Reformers during the persecutions of the Protestants.

God's Word, like Dan.7, 8, and 11 is specific that the one that will place the "abomination of desolation" idol will do that in a temple in JERUSALEM, not Rome.

And our Lord Jesus showed us that the deceived will be saying that is Christ because of the great signs and wonders, i.e., miracles, that false one will do in Jerusalem. That means he will come playing Messiah, and fool the orthodox Jews, which for them he is required to come from the house of David like our Lord Jesus. That is even more so with how our Lord Jesus said in Matt.24:24 that false one doing those great signs and miracles would, IF POSSIBLE, deceive even His very elect servants.

So what LEVEL of false miracle working would be required to ALMOST... deceive even Christ's elect, because His elect cannot be deceived as He showed? No pope is going to do that, for our Lord Jesus is speaking of a supernatural working of wonders and miracles, even raining fire down from heaven in the sight of men per the Rev.13:11 forward Scripture.

DP · Nov 21, 2015

KJV1611 said:

Regarding the coming Antichrist/pseudo-Messiah, the interpretation of 'disguised' is a better fit; that because transformed is equal to the idea of being transfigured. That false messiah coming is not going to be literally transfigured on earth. He is coming in disguise as God (2 Thess.2:4) which is a very, very important point when all those Scriptures about that pseudo-Christ is put together that I have covered many times here on this forum.

Could it be someone like Rodney Brown who at the simple gesture of a giggle can make a whole congregation go into an uncontrollable laughing frenzy??? No, because who does he claim that power is from? Likewise with the pope, he claims to be a representative on earth.

But the pseudo-Christ per our Lord Jesus in Matt.24:23-26, and Apostle Paul in 2 Thess.2:4, that is showing he will come in power literally with the level of supernatural working that would trick the whole world into believing he is God. That's what Paul meaning of his exalting himself over all that is called... God, or that is worshiped, is about.

DP · Nov 21, 2015

Ahwatukee said:

So you concentrate of the topic of earthquakes instead the subject of what I put in red bold there? Why are you skipping what I put in RED?

6th Seal

Rev.6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
KJV

7th Vial

Rev 16:18-21
18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of His wrath.
20And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.
KJV

prove-all · Nov 21, 2015

DP said:

and (the great horn) that is between his eyes is the (first king).

The goat represents the Greco-Macedonian Empire,
and the notable horn stands for its first king— (Alexander the Great).

6And he came to the (ram) that had (two horns), which I had seen standing before the river,
and ran unto him in the fury of his power.
7And I saw him come close unto the ram, and he was moved with choler against him, and smote the ram,
and brake his two horns: and there was no power in the ram to stand before him, but he cast him down
to the ground, and stamped upon him: and there was none that could deliver the ram out of his hand.

Alexander’s empire overwhelmed the Medo-Persians in 331 b.c.,
just as verses 6 and 7 prophesied it would!

8Therefore the he goat waxed very great:
and when he was strong, the great horn was broken;
and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.

-The horn that represented the first Grecian king,Alexander, was suddenly broken.
Alexander the Great, at the height of his power, died of fever suddenly while in Babylon.
He was only 33 years old.

“Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it,
four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.”

-After Alexander died in 323 b.c., his kingdom was divided into (four major parts),
none of which were as strong as Alexander’s empire, .

9And (out of one of them)came forth a (little horn), which waxed exceeding great,
toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.

-First, so there is no confusion, this is not referring to the
(little horn) mentioned in Daniel 7:8. That little horn rose up in the midst of the other horns.
In Daniel 8:9, the little horn springs up out of one of the four horns from Alexander’s empire.

10And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some
of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them

this little horn in Daniel 8 is: Antiochus Epiphanes.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antiochus_Epiphanes
He came up out of one of the four divisions and, in a sense, bridged
the gap between the Greco-Macedonian Empire and the Roman Empire.

Antiochus was a ruthless dictator who, through deceitful
lies and flatteries, obtained rule in Palestine in 176 b.c.

In 168 b.c., Antiochus pillaged and desecrated the Jews’ temple in Jerusalem.
He also burdened the Jews with unbearable taxes.

But never before, neither under the Assyrians nor under the Babylonians,
had it received such a blow as the edict issued by Antiochus Epiphanes by which
he hoped to crush and destroy the faith of Israel

-This prophecy in Daniel also applies to an end-time Antiochus.
His goal will be to crush the faith of (spiritual) Israel—God’s Church.
The temple, today, is God’s Church (Ephesians 2:20-21).

people are looking for the wrong sign if waiting for sacrifices to start.
the daily in prophecy refers to the sacrifice, or work, of the Church.

There is also an end-time abomination of desolation, as
prophesied here in Daniel 8 and in Matthew 24 and Luke 21.

But what we have not understood is the spiritual dimension to this prophecy.
Anciently, Antiochus went to Jerusalem and desecrated
the temple first. Afterward, he ransacked the whole city.

Notice, here the daily is taken away because of transgression.
So this is a different event than in Daniel 12:11, where there
is a “daily” taken away because of righteousness—to the place
of safety. Also, in Daniel 12 an end-time Antiochus violently
shatters the power of the holy people. But here in Daniel 8, he
subtly comes to the temple with flatteries.

Daniel 8 is discussing transgression, truth being cast
to the ground—a satanic host practicing and prospering
at destroying the daily(continual) all from within the sanctuary,
God’s own Church.

There is a duality here. First, there is an Antiochus used by Satan
to destroy God’s Church, spiritual Israel, from the inside.

Then there is an Antiochus, leading the Holy Roman Empire,
who destroys the nations of Israel.

cgaviria · Nov 21, 2015

The rapture is a false teaching and a misunderstanding of the second coming of the Lord. Those that will be taken away ARE the ones that will be taken up whether already alive or dead (they will be resurrected), to meet the Lord in the air as he descends. So in reality you could say the rapture and the second coming are really on the same day! Let me know if you need bible verses and I'll gladly provide!

Also, mark of the beast! I am speculating on this as I have not yet formed a solid opinion on this, but I strongly believe the USA is the beast of the earth, that is, the false prophet, and I believe the mark of the beast to be tied to a debt system in the US, where it is almost impossible to do anything unless you are given this "mark". I don't think the mark is a literal mark, as Revelation is mainly figurative, and I believe the receiving of it on "right hand" and "forehead" indicates your ACTIONS and your THOUGHTS being centered on this thing that enables you to sell and buy, that is, live in the things of the world. And even in other verses in Revelation we see the 144,000 elected having marks on their "foreheads", i believe this too, is figurative. I strongly believe the fulfillment of the mark of the beast prophecy is the social security system implemented by the US and assigned to all of us. You virtually cannot do anything unless this number is assigned to you. And it is indeed tied to a debt system.

prove-all · Nov 21, 2015

[mystery of iniquity]
7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let,
until he be taken out of the way.

[Iniquity] is wickedness or a sin, it was [allready at work] back then,
the bible does not say who is restraing, but once restraint removed ,
it will get worse, or it is allready unrestrained now.

And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion,
that [they should believe] a lie:

again this spirit was allready started , in the world then , false religions,

many will come in my name, Christ - ianity
[different denomations] saying they are the way, the truth , the light

Christianity used Christs name, then shead tons of blood, in the name of Christ.

the crusades ring a bell

turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness [lawlessness]

popeye · Nov 21, 2015

cgaviria said:

The rapture is a false teaching and a misunderstanding of the second coming of the Lord. Those that will be taken away ARE the ones that will be taken up whether already alive or dead (they will be resurrected), to meet the Lord in the air as he descends. So in reality you could say the rapture and the second coming are really on the same day! Let me know if you need bible verses and I'll gladly provide!

Also, mark of the beast! I am speculating on this as I have not yet formed a solid opinion on this, but I strongly believe the USA is the beast of the earth, that is, the false prophet, and I believe the mark of the beast to be tied to a debt system in the US, where it is almost impossible to do anything unless you are given this "mark". I don't think the mark is a literal mark, as Revelation is mainly figurative, and I believe the receiving of it on "right hand" and "forehead" indicates your ACTIONS and your THOUGHTS being centered on this thing that enables you to sell and buy, that is, live in the things of the world. And even in other verses in Revelation we see the 144,000 elected having marks on their "foreheads", i believe this too, is figurative. I strongly believe the fulfillment of the mark of the beast prophecy is the social security system implemented by the US and assigned to all of us. You virtually cannot do anything unless this number is assigned to you. And it is indeed tied to a debt system.

Factor in the bride, bridegroom,and the wedding supper.

Mat 25,the 10 virgins has roughly half the saints left behind and half leaving with Jesus.

Your theory lacks all the dynamics.

prove-all · Nov 21, 2015

the daily

“And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination
that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days” (Daniel 12:11).

The word “sacrifice” is in italics in the King James Version of the Bible.
That means the translators added it.

The only word that Daniel used is daily. That word is used about 100 times in the Old Testament. And 80 percent of the time it is translated continual or continually. It is translated always about 5 percent of the time. The Cambridge Bible reads, “the continual shall be taken away.” Our focus needs to be on the daily, or continual—not on a word (sacrifice) that is not even in the original Hebrew text.

Strong’s Concordance and Gesenius’ Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon define the Hebrew word for daily as perpetual. Webster’s Dictionary defines perpetual as “continuing forever, everlasting, valid for all time.”

The daily is God’s Work. It must continue because Christ prophesied that it would.
“And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church;
and the gates of [the grave] shall not prevail against it” (Matthew 16:18).
The work of God’s Church is the continual. That means it will never die, or Christ is a liar.

The Work is continual!

ukok102nak · Nov 21, 2015

ok then let us give an example of what the right hand and forehead means
spiritually . ...

:smoke: before you can buy anything those evil things said
" have you not committed any adultery and even an incest or an orgy unto anyone and its best
to do it with those beast ( a dunkey for example ) "

:now: are you an idiot we are not here to do that we just want to buy
some snacks :rofl:

and the evil things said . . . ....
take them all to the pit and put them unto trials of
the mark of the breast este mark of the beast and if they did not pass
kill them all but if they succed then gave them a
literal mark from their forehead and right hand as a sign that the evil things
gave them all the rights to be in their kingdom of darkness to come :haha:

:dontknow: if this real or not
its up to you people to
:think: about it :hmm:

God bless us all always

:ty:

prove-all · Nov 21, 2015

ukok102nak said:

The forehead is where our conscious thoughts reside.
The right hand is where our works are manifested.

The mark is spiritual, in the sense that we can be obsessed with the beast.
The mark is physical, in the sense that we can manifest our works on it's behalf.

prove-all · Nov 21, 2015

The forehead is where we make our decision, we choose to worship the beast ,
or we choose true worship of God,

in the hand means by our actions or non action we make a choice to worship either one.

Worship is mentioned 8 times in Revelation 13 & 14.

the rapture

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