the rapture

DP · Nov 20, 2015

The 6th Seal events contain events of the 7th Vial, 7th Trumpet. The pre-trib secret rapture doctrine is what is blinding you from grasping this point. The way we are to interpret God's Word, is allow Scripture to interpret Scripture, not use a doctrine of men as the rule for interpreting. The latter is what you're doing, which is why you have misunderstood some of those events on the 6th Seal.

Rev 6:12-14
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
KJV

Part of Rev.6:12 and all of Rev.6:13 are tribulation events, but not Rev.6:14 and thereafter to the end of that Rev.6 chapter. Here's the parallel to the verse 14 6th Seal events, which below are 7th Vial events...

Rev 16:18-21
18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of His wrath.
20And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.
KJV

Notice when this Isaiah 13 Scripture puts that time of the sun being darkened with that "day of the LORD" coming. Another parallel Scripture is Joel 2:31...

Isa 13:9-11
9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and He shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
KJV

Now the "day of the LORD" is NOT the great tribulation timing that our Lord Jesus and His Apostles taught (Matt.24; 1 Thess.5; 2 Pet.3:10; 2 Thess.2). Instead, the "day of the Lord" is the FINAL day of this present world, and will END the great tribulation with Jesus' second coming. THAT... is when our Lord Jesus will gather His Church, on that day. That is the last day, the day of the resurrection also, the sounding of the final trumpet. It is also when the battle of Armageddon will occur.

I know you guys have been taught to look at the plagues in the Vials and treat that as this specific day of God's cup of wrath being poured out upon the wicked, but the OT prophets make a distinction with God's wrath that is poured out on the specific "day of the Lord" timing, and that is the wrath that Apostle Paul was teaching about in 1 Thess.5 that we are not appointed to. The wrath in the other Vials are not for us either, but it's this particular "day of the Lord" wrath that Paul was speaking of, because this "day of the Lord" is the specific timeline subject Paul is covering in 1 Thess.5.

Joel 3:12-17
12 Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about.
13 Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great.
14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.
15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.
16 The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.
17 So shall ye know that I am the LORD your God dwelling in Zion, My holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more.
KJV

Those events are about the "day of the Lord" when God will gather the nations around Jerusalem in order to pour out His cup of wrath upon them. That is the Armageddon timing our Lord Jesus foretold at the end of Rev.16 on the 7th Vial events. But Joel 3:16-17 is the specific time of the "day of the Lord" with Christ's second coming to do battle against those nations on the last day.

Rev 16:16-20
16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of His wrath.
20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
KJV

Those above events parallel with what our Lord Jesus said in Matt.24...

Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV

And then here's a huge parallel from Isaiah 2 that also shows what timing the Rev.6:15-17 verses are...

Isa 2:12-19
12 For the day of the LORD of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low:
13 And upon all the cedars of Lebanon, that are high and lifted up, and upon all the oaks of Bashan,
14 And upon all the high mountains, and upon all the hills that are lifted up,
15 And upon every high tower, and upon every fenced wall,
16 And upon all the ships of Tarshish, and upon all pleasant pictures.
17 And the loftiness of man shall be bowed down, and the haughtiness of men shall be made low: and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day.
18 And the idols he shall utterly abolish.
19 And they shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of His majesty, when He ariseth to shake terribly the earth.
KJV

As I have shown elsewhere, when the wicked try to hide from The Father and His Son on that day, it is because of the time of His wrath upon them. That's why they seek to go into the holes of the rocks and caves, "for fear of the LORD", and "for the glory of His majesty" which means Jesus coming in Glory, which is definitely the time when "He ariseth to shake terribly the earth".

As I showed in the above Scriptures, the time of God's cup of wrath being poured out on the wicked is about the "day of the Lord" events, which is what the Rev.6:14-17 events are. It is ONLY on that day that the earth will shake with the islands and mountains being moved. And Jesus showed that is when His coming is and gathering of His saints.

Ahwatukee · Nov 20, 2015

Good day DP,

Why would you claim that the sixth seal contains events of the seventh trumpet and seventh bowl judgment?

DP · Nov 20, 2015

P1LGR1M said:

Well no, you are mistaken. A pre-trib secret rapture idea was never... found in the teachings of the Church until the 1800's:

https://davemosher.wordpress.com/20...tribulational-rapture-theory-by-ed-f-sanders/

No, many scholars in Darby's day consistently wondered just where Darby got the doctrine (see above link again).

Harry Ironside[SUP](4)[/SUP]: In 1908 Ironside claimed Darby had rediscovered the apostolic teaching lost to the church: “Until brought to the fore through the writings and the preaching and teaching of the distinguished ex-clergyman, Mr. J. N. Darby, in the early part of the last century, [the pretribulational rapture] is scarcely to be found in a single book or sermon throughout a period of sixteen hundred years! If any doubt this statement, let them search, as the writer has in measure done, the remarks of the so-called Fathers, both pre- and post-Nicene, the theological treatises of the scholastic divines, Roman Catholic writers of all shades of thought; the literature of the reformation; the sermons and expositions of the Puritans; and the general theological works of the day. He will find “the mystery” conspicuous by its absence”. (Harry A. Ironside, The Mysteries of God, New York: Loizeaux Brothers, 1908, pp 50–51).

Some of the Pre-trib writers have been caught trying to Revise the writings and meanings of previous Church fathers:

Pretrib_Rapture_Dishonesty

You and I both know the word 'rapture' is not in God's Word, not even in the English KJV. The word Paul used was Greek harpazo which was translated to "caught up" in the KJV; from a Latin translation is where some derived the term rapture. So the NT Greek does teach Christ's Church being siezed (harpazo) by Christ at His coming, but that point is still irrelevant to the timing of the word rapture, because 1 Thess.4 does not show the when of that event. We have to depend on other Scripture evidence from Paul to understand the when, and he gave that in the 2 Thess.2 chapter, where he was specific that two major events must... occur before Christ's coming and our gathering; and that is the great falling away and the Antichrist being revealed sitting in the temple in Jerusalem.

John Darby who got the secret rapture idea started among the Plymouth Brethren is who created the theories of Dispensationalism also. It was his idea that Israel must be kept separate in Scripture from Christ's Church, not Jesus.

The timing our Lord Jesus showed for His second coming and gathering of His Church per Matt.24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 agrees with the event timing Apostle Paul taught in 2 Thess.2, and also the events of 1 Thess.4 about the Church being "caught up" on the day of His coming. Paul was very clear that the false one of 2 Thess.2:4 is destroyed... at the timing of Christ's coming:

2 Thess 2:1-4
2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
KJV

The subject is the "day of Christ" ("day of the Lord" actually, for the word Christ is actually the Greek word kurios which means 'lord'); and about the time of Jesus' coming and gathering of His Church. Those two events of the falling away, and that man of sin being revealed MUST occur first.

2 Thess 2:8
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming:
KJV

Paul made that very plain. That false one must be revealed sitting in that temple, and our Lord Jesus then comes to destroy him with the brightness of His coming (parousia).

There is NO secret rapture message in that. Instead, Paul declared a one-time return of our Lord Jesus to gather His Church and at the same time destroys that Wicked one with the "brightness of His coming." It doesn't get any easier than that.

That Wicked is the same pseudo-Christ that our Lord Jesus warned His disciples and us about in Matthew 24:23-26 involving the placing of the "abomination of desolation" idol in the temple at Jerusalem, as per the Book of Daniel. Per Daniel, the false one is to do that in the middle of the final "one week" of Dan.9. It is the specific subject of the "vile person" and "little horn" that causes the placing of that abomination in Jerusalem (Dan.8 & 11), and then the latter 1260 days of the symbolic "one week" is the time of "great tribulation" our Lord Jesus was talking about.

That event our Lord Jesus also showed us in His Revelation about the "dragon" having power 42 months (i.e, 1260 days, or 3.5 years, the latter half of Daniel's symbolic "one week"). It is also the time of God's two witnesses that will appear in Jerusalem and prophesy against the beast for 1260 days and then are killed by the beast (Rev.11).

Ahwatukee · Nov 20, 2015

Each event of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are individual events, separate from one another, which is why they are numbered 1 thru 7 for each set, to distinguish each event as being their own separate plague. For example, the sixth seal says that there is a great earthquake (EQ) and the seventh bowl says that the greatest earthquake to ever hit since man has been on the earth will take place. Therefore, just because the sixth seal and the seventh bowl judgment both mention earthquakes does not mean that they are the same event. In fact there are many earthquakes mentioned in Revelation, but that doesn't mean they are all referring to the same event. Furthermore, the EQ at the sixth seal is called "a great earthquake," where regarding the one that takes place at the seventh bowl it is said "no earthquake like it has ever occurred since mankind has been on earth." The EQ that takes place at the sixth seal moves/stirs the mountains and islands while remaining in their places, where at the pouring out of the seventh bowl, the mountains and islands disappear and cannot be found. We need to pay attention to the details instead of jumping to the conclusion that these events are synonymous with each other. They are individual events that take place in order inwhich they are presented.

"The day of the Lord," also called "the Hour of Trial" is neither a day nor an hour in length, but covers that entire last seven years with the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments being the fulfillment of that time of God's wrath. Jesus is the One opening the seals, which lead into the trumpets and bowls and He is therefore the One carrying out God's wrath. The sixth seal is followed by the seventh seal, which leads into the trumpets and bowl judgments with the Lord returning to the earth some time after the seven bowl has been poured out, which ends God's wrath.

DP · Nov 20, 2015

Ahwatukee said:

Study the Scripture evidence I posted.

Ahwatukee · Nov 20, 2015

DP said:

I did and it is wrong!

DP · Nov 21, 2015

Ahwatukee said:

The Scriptures I posted show more going on than just that one event of an earthquake. Study the Scripture evidence I gave before trying to convince me that they say something else. I'll make it easy for you, show when that event of the islands and mountains being moved is for per God's Word, which is an event on the 6th Seal of Rev.6:14. I didn't get to the event there of the heavens departing as a scroll from the OT prophets which is also a "day of the Lord" timing event.

When I studied our Lord's Book of Revelation years ago, I also relied solely on the sequential numbering idea of interpretation you've been taught, thinking the seals happen first, then the trumpets all happen next, and then the vials all occur last.

But when I discovered that our Lord Jesus was giving us the events of the seals of Rev.6 in His Olivet Discourse, I only found 7 signs of the end He gave there in Matt.24 and Mark 13. I noticed no 1st Seal is specifically mentioned with the rider on the white horse of Rev.6, the very first sign there. It is assumed that is the 1st Seal, when Scripture actually says, "one of the seals", meaning not necessarily the 1st Seal, but one of the seals.

That got me thinking about that rider on a white horse with bow of cheap fabric (per Greek toxon) and the crown. That couldn't be our Lord Jesus, because He comes on a white horse wielding many crowns (diadema) and a Sword. That Rev.6 white horse rider means an imposter, the pseudo-Christ He warned of in the Matt.24 and Mark 13 chapters.

And thing is, that pseudo-Christ would not be coming on the 1st seal. He is to come on either the 5th or 6th seal (I believe the 6th seal mainly). Then I remembered the very first sign of the end our Lord Jesus gave in His Olivet Discourse, to not allow any man to deceive us. That's what that rider on the white horse of Rev.6:1-2 represents, a deceiver, a fake Christ, the pseudo-Christ ("false Christs" per the Greek = a pseudo-Christ). In Matt.24:23-26 our Lord Jesus expands on that false one coming to deceive, working great signs and wonders.

That order of events reveals not everything mentioned in Rev.6 are in perfect sequential order, but instead follow the 7 signs our Lord Jesus gave in His Olivet Discourse.

Then when studying the OT prophets (which is a must to understand Revelation), we have all those Scripture parallels to those Revelation events, which also helps with their proper order, especially the events marked with the "day of the Lord" Message.

So the true order of events in our Lord's Revelation are giving us 3 Sets of 7 signs, that occur in a type of parallel, with some events overlapping each other, and some events starting on a specific seal, trumpet, and vial and continuing throughout the rest of the seals, trumpets, and vials. Our Lord Jesus gave only 7 signs in His Olivet Discourse, not 21.

This is revealed even the more when one notes our Lord Jesus warned His Church still within the 6th Vial timing that He comes "as a thief", so watch and be careful to keep your garments, relating to what Apostles Paul and Peter taught about the "day of the Lord" coming "as a thief in the night" per 1 Thess.5 and 2 Pet.3:10. The pseudo-Christ's coming is on the 6th Seal, 6th Trumpet, and 6th Vial (666).

prove-all · Nov 21, 2015

DP said:

1And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne
a book written within and on the backside, [sealed with seven seals].

Rev. 5: says it was sealed with [seven seals], and all seven seals [are] accounted for.
the first one was the first one, like the first day, worded different then the second day,
there was nothing to compare it to. This first rider causes the most damage.
This rider is religious deception, unlocked an started ride long ago.

Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah,the Root of David, hath prevailed
to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof” (Revelation 5:5).

Jesus earned right to the key of David here on earth,
after return to heaven he unlocks this prophecy, first seal.

Christ starts his church on pentacost,- see the woman in rev.12 .
but also unlocking the anti church started, - aka the woman in rev 17
Jesus unlocks first horse but does not ride this himself.

first four seals are the same as the olivet prophecy
The first and most deadly horseman is religious deception!

The word conquer means “to come off with the victory”
that the largest organized religious “cult”on Earth today
waged the bloodiest battles ever, in the name of God.

[insert has decieved the whole world]

The horseman has wreaked havoc on mankind with religious wars throughout history.

Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God;
because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

By this you know the Spirit of God: And every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ
has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist,

which you have heard was coming, and is now [already in] the world (I John 4:3 ).

Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming,
[even now many antichrists] have come-----

Ahwatukee · Nov 21, 2015

Good day DP,

Well, to repeat to you what I have already told you in the previous post, I do not have any teachers. I have done my own personal studies for over 40 years. Therefore, please refrain from inferring that "I have been taught" because no one has taught me but the Spirit of God through the scriptures. Also, just because you changed your view on the chronological order of the events of Revelation doesn't mean that all of a sudden everyone else is wrong and you are now correct. I have tried looking at seals, trumpets and bowls in different orders and it doesn't work. It becomes a big mess! That being said, they take place in exactly the order the God put them in.

I have encounter this teaching many times before and you are correct in that the seal that is opened first does not say "First seal," but that it says, "one of the seven seals." However, the following seals are referred to in each of the scriptures as second, third and fourth, fifth, sixth and seventh, therefore, since there are only seven seals and all the other numbers are accounted for, then it is apparent that the first seal that is being opened is in fact the first seal. Also, the fact that with a scroll that has seven seals, the first seal must be broken and opened first, as one could not skip to the second or third, etc., before breaking the fist one.

Why wouldn't he be coming at the first seal? It is the revealing of the antichrist that starts everything, that is, the making of the seven year covenant initiates that entire seven years and it is the rider on the white horse that does this. Also, since each time a seal is opened a separate event takes place, then the first seal that is opened must be its own event and not mixed with another seal. Also, as I previously stated, the words for each of the seals 2 through 7 appear in each of the succeeding verses and are therefore accounted for.

No, studying the OT prophets is not a must, but is helpful in supporting the detailed information that is contained in Revelation. They mention in part mostly the sixth seal, but Revelation is its own authority regarding these events and that because these things mentioned in Revelation are Apokalupsis, the word meaning "previously unknown to the extent (because "veiled, covered"). I consider Daniel a sister book to Revelation, which does support Revelation and include other details. However, when it comes to understanding the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, I can understand them right from the book of Revelation, as they are literal events that are going to take place.

Just because Jesus didn't mention all of them doesn't mean that they aren't going to take place. Revelation makes it clear that there more to take place than just the sixth seal. He did mention the setting up of abomination in Mt.24:15 and we know that this event takes place in the middle of Daniel's last seven years. The middle of the seven is also when Satan and his angels are thrown out of heaven and when woman/Israel flees out into the desert where she is cared for during that last 1,260 days (3 1/2 years), among other events.

The 6th seal, 6th trumpet and 6th bowl judgment, all take place in the order that they are found in Revelation and are not taking place at the same time and each are their own separate events. Also, there is nothing at the opening of the 6th seal that would support the antichrist coming during this seal. But, scripture does support that he comes at the opening of the first seal that is opened as all the other seals are identified by their specific number and therefore, "First seal" is the only one available and as I said, you cannot jump to any other seal, as the first seal must be broken first.

The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are a detailed account of the day of the Lord, which was prophesied by the prophets. It is neither a day nor an hour in length, but will cover that entire seven years leading up to the Lord's return to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom. These events are the fulfillment of the Rock (Christ) that was cut out of the mountain without human hands falling on the feet of the statue (human government) and smashing it to pieces like chaff on the threshing floor, never to be found again (end of human government). And the Rock that smashed the statue to pieces filled the entire earth (Christ's millennial reign).

Again, please show me anywhere from Rev.4 onward where you see the word "Church." Only the word "Saints" appears and is referring to the great tribulation saints introduced in Rev.7. The very fact that the elder is introducing them demonstrates that they are not the church. Also, the fact that John doesn't know who this group is after being asked by the elder, would also demonstrate that they are not the church. It is the great tribulation saints who are in view throughout the time period of God's wrath and not the church. I believe that at Rev.4:1 when John hears that voice that sounds like a trumpet, that it is prophetic of the church being resurrected and caught up. I believe that the voice that sounds like a trumpet which says "come up here" is synonymous with the "trumpet call of God" found in 1 Thes.4:16. That being the case, this would put the church as being removed prior to the first seal taking place and would explain why we don't see the word Ekklesia/church from that time on.

LORDOFHOSTS · Nov 21, 2015

Are we trolling? Or baiting?

VioletReigns · Nov 21, 2015

...................................

pottersclay · Nov 21, 2015

V.R. it's popcorn not chips "how dare you" now get rid of those greesey things.

popeye · Nov 21, 2015

VioletReigns said:

One of the foolish virgins. LOL

DP · Nov 21, 2015

prove-all said:

The point still is, that rider on the white horse is aligned with the first sign Jesus gave in His Olivet Discourse, which is about the Antichrist coming to deceive the whole world.

Matt 24:4-5
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

5 For many shall come in My name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
KJV

DP · Nov 21, 2015

Ahwatukee said:

I don't have a clue as to what you are talking about. What I wrote had nothing to do with you personally, it had to do with myself, giving an explanation of why I see the alignment in Revelation that I do. And I DO HAVE A TEACHER, His Name is The Holy Spirit!

I could care less what you believe, or what you think about how I view our Lord's Revelation; I showed how I LEFT MEN'S DOCTRINES THAT WERE ALWAYS CLOUDING UNDERSTANDING in Revelation, and I instead began listening to The LORD by The Holy Spirit, allowing God's Word to interpret God's Word (which I showed HOW to do in my above posts!).

So climb down off your HIGH HORSEY, because you are just posting a lot of baulderdash right now.

DP · Nov 21, 2015

Ahwatukee said:

No, you did NOT study those Scriptures I posted. And that is WHY... you already show no intention of discussing them. You would have to deny God's Word on those things, and not what I say. So have you figured out when the islands and mountains are moved yet, what timing that is???

prove-all · Nov 21, 2015

DP said:

this was [the spirit] of antichrists [plural]that wentout, many means more then one.

this man antichrist that will come later is not the same here

which you have heard was coming, and is now [already in] the world (I John 4:3 ).

Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that [the Antichrist] is coming[future],
[even now [many] antichrists] have come-----

this happened way back then, the church was taken over from within,

Paul cried for 3 years with tears because he knew this.

The horseman [has] wreaked havoc on mankind with false religion,
then followed war throughout history.

Ahwatukee · Nov 21, 2015

DP said:

Hi DP,

Most of what you wrote is misapplied and therefore, we'll just have to agree to disagree on this. But, since the chronological order in Revelation is seals 1 thru 7, Trumpets 1 thru 7 and bowls 1 thru 7 and I am in agreement with this order, then any other order other than what is listed and the burden of proof falls to you or anyone else who wants to change the line up.

Also, since for those who are in Christ Jesus there is now no condemnation and scripture also proclaims that we are not appointed to suffer wrath, that is, any wrath from God, then the church must be removed prior to the first seal and that because the seals are the beginning of God's wrath. Therefore, if you want to continue believing that God is going to build his church and then put it through his wrath you are free to do so. But I believe that the church will be gone before the first seal is opened.

The islands are stirred/moved in their places at the opening of the 6th seal when that great earthquake takes place. Then later at the end of the seven years at the pouring out of the 7th bowl another earthquake takes place, which is referred to as the greatest quake to hit since man has been on earth, where the mountains and islands are completely gone, making a distinction from the quake at the 6th seal.

prove-all · Nov 21, 2015

13For such are false apostles, deceitful workers,
transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.

14And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

15Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as

the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

Ahwatukee · Nov 21, 2015

prove-all said:

Hi Prove-all,

The only problem with that, and a big one, is that the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are all part of the signs that Jesus said would signal his return to the earth to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom. Regarding this, he also said that when those things began to take place that they would do so in the last generation. That being said, "The Horsemen," that is, the first four seals, could not have taken place throughout history, because they must be restricted to that last generation. For those who are here on the earth at that time, that political ruler that makes his seven year covenant with Israel is what will initiate that last seven years and that generation where that takes place will not have come to its close before the 7th bowl has been poured out, which completes God's wrath.

The 1st seal is yet to be opened and will be recognized when he, the antichrist, makes his seven year covenant. Following that will be the rest of the seals, followed by the seven trumpets, which are then followed by the seven bowls, in order.

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