The tares (weeds) are born-again, but are going to hell
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are you sure?
i thought God made bad trees into good trees through the Gospel all the time.
i thought God made bad trees into good trees through the Gospel all the time.
After all love was always stronger than the hatred and evil of darkness it is my very firm and solid belief that Jesus saw something worth fighting for worth suffering greatly and intensely for worth dying for in even the most cold and cruel of hearts in even the most blood stained souls he would have gone through all he did a thousand times over for just one of us.
This is the love I saw in him and the very same love I sought after and refused to accept anything less than that. I do not speak empty and vain words when I say that today I would be willing to burn in the very fires of hell itself for a time for the sake of one such child and one day I may very well have to prove my words but I simply am not afraid I remember the love I saw in those eyes when i read revelation I remember why his eyes burned so fiercely and so strongly.
God has this funny way of turning our greatest weaknesses into our greatest strength and we are never to far gone for him, it doesn't matter how strong the fires or how severe the pain and thirst that hell has love was is and always will be stronger.
Only because they don't argue about the meaning of parables. To be in the kingdom merely means they are professing to be in. But of course they are not subject to the king. They are ALWAYS weeds.
As for error, the Bible clearly states that Christ will lose none of His again and again. So that is THE FACT,
As for error, the Bible clearly states that Christ will lose none of His again and again. So that is THE FACT,
Ask yourself the same question about why you would tell others or nonbelievers about Christ' work on the cross and the consequences if they don't receive His offer? It would be because you care about what might happen to them, based on your perception of scriptural truth. All it would be is you trying to warn others because you believe they would go to hell if they don't pay heed. There is no difference with Zachary trying to warn those who believe and call themselves Christians. If you love your neighbor, you would try to help them as best you could, wouldn't you? You too might be wrong in your interpretations and understandings of God's word and the way His kingdom operates, yet you tell others what you believe to be true. It would be one thing if you were purposefully trying to deceive others, but most on this forum I would think are not trying to be wicked, but truly believe what they write, and since all of us only have partial knowledge of most subjects of discussion, myself included, we may get a thing or two wrong. It also is the very reason why I make the same kind of posts.
2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
2Ti 3:6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
2Ti 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
This kind of person might be considered a tare.
2Ti 3:6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
2Ti 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
This kind of person might be considered a tare.
the same principle
john 15:1-6 "I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. 2Every branch IN ME that beareth NOT FRUIT he taketh AWAY: and every branch that BEARETH FRUIT, HE PURGETH IT, that it may bring forth more fruit. 3Now ye are clean through the word which I HAVE SPOKEN unto you. 4ABIDE IN ME, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, EXCEPT IT ABIDE in THE VINE; no more can ye, except ye ABIDE IN ME. 5I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that ABIDETH IN MY, and I in him, the same bringeth forth MUCH FRUIT: for without me ye can do nothing. 6If a man ABIDE NOT in me, he is CAST FORTH a branch, and is WITHERED; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are BURNED.
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Still tryin' to simplify the OP for da troops (not all of whom are born again from above):
John 3:
Everyone who is in the kingdom of God has been born-again.
Matthew 13:
Jesus' angels will remove the wicked from the kingdom of God,
and throw them in the fire to be burned.
So, are there really 2 different kingdom of Gods?
Still tryin' to simplify the OP for da troops (not all of whom are born again from above):
John 3:
Everyone who is in the kingdom of God has been born-again.
Matthew 13:
Jesus' angels will remove the wicked from the kingdom of God,
and throw them in the fire to be burned.
So, are there really 2 different kingdom of Gods?
Jesus is the Savior of the whole world whether they receive it or not. The earth is the Lord's and the fullness thereof. The "field" is the world of which belongs under the Lordship of Jesus Christ now - whether people acknowledge it now or not - they will all call Him Lord when they see Him for who He really is.
The secret to understanding this "world" and "kingdom" thing - is that we become sons of the kingdom by believing in Christ's finished work on the cross and resurrection - others that reject Christ do not become children of God.
Matthew 13:38 (NASB)
[SUP]38 [/SUP] and the field is the world; and as for the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil one;
The whole world's sin has been taken away by the Lord Jesus. Behold the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world.
John 4:42 (NASB)
[SUP]42 [/SUP] and they were saying to the woman, "It is no longer because of what you said that we believe, for we have heard for ourselves and know that this One is indeed the Savior of the world."
1 John 4:14 (NASB)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] We have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.
1 Timothy 4:10 (NASB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.
Romans 5:17-19 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.
[SUP]19 [/SUP] For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.
It is hard to believe but there are those that do reject Christ and what He has done. Those that are trying to maintain their own righteousness are denying the work of the Lord Jesus Christ. The church is full of these types of "believers".
He is changing all that by revealing the majesty and completeness of His finished work on the cross and resurrection and it all comes by grace through faith in Him alone.
The fruit of this right believing will bear good fruit that comes from His life manifesting in and through us to those in the world that need to see His love and grace for them.
The secret to understanding this "world" and "kingdom" thing - is that we become sons of the kingdom by believing in Christ's finished work on the cross and resurrection - others that reject Christ do not become children of God.
Matthew 13:38 (NASB)
[SUP]38 [/SUP] and the field is the world; and as for the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil one;
The whole world's sin has been taken away by the Lord Jesus. Behold the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world.
John 4:42 (NASB)
[SUP]42 [/SUP] and they were saying to the woman, "It is no longer because of what you said that we believe, for we have heard for ourselves and know that this One is indeed the Savior of the world."
1 John 4:14 (NASB)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] We have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.
1 Timothy 4:10 (NASB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.
Romans 5:17-19 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.
[SUP]19 [/SUP] For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.
It is hard to believe but there are those that do reject Christ and what He has done. Those that are trying to maintain their own righteousness are denying the work of the Lord Jesus Christ. The church is full of these types of "believers".
He is changing all that by revealing the majesty and completeness of His finished work on the cross and resurrection and it all comes by grace through faith in Him alone.
The fruit of this right believing will bear good fruit that comes from His life manifesting in and through us to those in the world that need to see His love and grace for them.
Im not sure about this could someone please explain it to me?
Is god talking about heaven when he says kingdom of god, or is he talking about this one?
Revelation 11:15-18
[SUP]15 Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, saying,
‘The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord
and of his Messiah, and he will reign for ever and ever.’
The way i see it is those scriptures make alot more sense when looked at the one that is coming to the world.[/SUP]
[h=2][/h]
Is god talking about heaven when he says kingdom of god, or is he talking about this one?
Revelation 11:15-18
[SUP]15 Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, saying,
‘The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord
and of his Messiah, and he will reign for ever and ever.’
The way i see it is those scriptures make alot more sense when looked at the one that is coming to the world.[/SUP]
[h=2][/h]
Actually now that i look at it, most the book of revelations fits into that perfectly as well.
[SIZE=+1]"But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words" (1st Thessalonians 4:13-18).
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Everyone who is dead is sleeping in Christ and awaiting his resurrection.
[SIZE=+1]"Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years" (Revelation 20:6).
[SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1]All those others who have died, will be raised and judged, and thrown into the lake of fire.[/SIZE][/SIZE]
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[SIZE=+1]"But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words" (1st Thessalonians 4:13-18).
[/SIZE]
Everyone who is dead is sleeping in Christ and awaiting his resurrection.
[SIZE=+1]"Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years" (Revelation 20:6).
[SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1]All those others who have died, will be raised and judged, and thrown into the lake of fire.[/SIZE][/SIZE]
[/SIZE][SIZE=+1]
"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works" (Revelation 20:12,13).
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you are in error, because you do not comprehend what being born of the Spirit is.
in the parable in Matthew 13, it is the Son of Man who sows the wheat, and the Devil who sows the tares.
Satan does not cause people to be reborn by the Spirit of God.
Christ does not sow tares. God does not remove the wicked heart from a man and put a new wicked one in its place.
The wheat are the sons of the kingdom, and the tares are the sons of the evil one - Matthew 13:38 - so how is it you think that the sons of God are the very same sons of the evil one?
do you see the kingdom, Zach?
or just everyone else's mistakes?
D
Psssst, ummm, anyone who believe that second paragraph you wrote IS OSAS. It just means "once saved, always saved," which of course is the ones Christ never loses. i.e. Assuming you believe what you wrote in that second paragraph, you are one of the "they" you describe in the first paragraph. (Although you can't really be, since I have no idea who "they" are in the first paragraph, other than maybe Tares? )
Welcome to the boat! We're in it together, thanks to Jesus.
)Welcome to the boat! We're in it together, thanks to Jesus.
D
In my thinking, (and I'm not positive, but I can't come up with another way to think this), God's kingdom is his domain. Where he rules. What he governs. He created everything that has been created, from all that is on this world, to all the universe, and yet who and what does he govern? His people. Those he chose.
And it's timeless, since God also created time and space, so moves in and out of it without even trying. (Also why he is omnipresent.)
Sort of comes back to tare and wheat. To us, the entire field looks like his. We can't tell which is his and which isn't, without a whole lot of effort, and probably years of investigating. (Even then, we're never sure.) We're not even sure we're wheat, so we press on in him. His will trust him enough to persevere and even that through his strength, grace, love, and glory. The rest fades away or God rips it out when it is no longer useful to him. (Remember Pharaoh and Judas. Not God's, but certainly used by God until used up for his good purposes.) But God know his kingdom. What he chose to be a part of it.
So it is now on earth, and in the heavens, and it was, and it will be in the future. Our hope is the future one when all that is left is his kingdom. But, if we are his, we're already the Kingdom of God. We're just not glorified yet. One day he will make us perfect to fit to his glory forever. That's the cool kingdom we all long for. (Although to God - it is already.)
And it's timeless, since God also created time and space, so moves in and out of it without even trying. (Also why he is omnipresent.)
Sort of comes back to tare and wheat. To us, the entire field looks like his. We can't tell which is his and which isn't, without a whole lot of effort, and probably years of investigating. (Even then, we're never sure.) We're not even sure we're wheat, so we press on in him. His will trust him enough to persevere and even that through his strength, grace, love, and glory. The rest fades away or God rips it out when it is no longer useful to him. (Remember Pharaoh and Judas. Not God's, but certainly used by God until used up for his good purposes.) But God know his kingdom. What he chose to be a part of it.
So it is now on earth, and in the heavens, and it was, and it will be in the future. Our hope is the future one when all that is left is his kingdom. But, if we are his, we're already the Kingdom of God. We're just not glorified yet. One day he will make us perfect to fit to his glory forever. That's the cool kingdom we all long for. (Although to God - it is already.)
Now having been questioned by the Pharisees as to when the kingdom of God was coming, He answered them and said,
“The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed; nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or, ‘There it is!’ For behold, the kingdom of God is in your midst.”
(Luke 17:20-21)
[HR][/HR][HR][/HR]
it seems to me that this verse from Luke illustrates something fundamental about what the kingdom is:
from John 3:3, it is something that cannot be perceived unless God chooses to make you alive through the Spirit.
from John 3:5, no one can enter it apart from being reborn by the will of God through the Spirit.
and from this passage in Luke, it is something among us, in the midst of us, within us. the meaning here is subtle.
directly after this passage, Christ explains to His disciples that His return is not something that can be missed - warning them not to follow people who say 'here it is' or 'there it is' -- because it will be like something that can be seen from one end of the sky to another.
some people interpret this ((Luke 17:22-24)) to mean that He will literally flash across the sky like lightning, and some people even say this means the earth must be flat, because how else could everyone on earth see something in the sky?
but it is not by any accident that He tells this to His disciples directly after telling those 'on the outside' -- those who cannot perceive the kingdom, not having been born of Spirit, because they are not His sheep, that the kingdom is not someplace to go and see, or something like an earthly kingdom that can be identified by borders, physical or temporal, but a thing 'within' or 'among' or 'amidst' them. yes, even those - the goats, the tares, the lost, the sons of the Devil, Jesus says the kingdom is in their midst: but they cannot perceive it, because they are not His sheep.
so -
to say that there are souls in the kingdom who are born of God but who are sons of the Devil is fatally flawed in understanding. the kingdom is not like an entire rock, whose undesirable parts will be chipped away, revealing a beautiful sculpture within. the kingdom is like the sculpture itself, waiting to be revealed when the rock surrounding it - which is not in the kingdom - is removed.
the sculpture is within the boulder, but the boulder itself is not the sculpture. unless you are given the eye to see this by God, you cannot see the sculpture within that boulder, until it has been carved, and then every eye will see it.
but on that day, some will be found to be rubble, and some will be found to be part of the art. this is a decision made by the Sculptor, not the stone - and nothing that is part of the sculpture will be removed, and nothing that is not part of the sculpture will remain.
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The kingdom of God is inside us and all around us we just have to have the eyes to perceive it. He is not speaking of a physical kingdom he is speaking of one that is unseen yet seen at the same time known yet unknown his kingdom is shown whenever a person shows love instead of hatred it is seen whenever you extend a hand to someone in need instead of walking by pretending you don't see them. Wherever a heart is to speak and give love and encouragement of any kind his kingdom is there and a crown not seen by the human eye lays atop that person.
When you see lowly poor man give the only small food he has to one who needs it you are looking at a king when you see a person who instead of throws a fist when attacked humbles themselves you are in the presence of the kingdom of God. The lowest and most poor person on this earth who has the heart of a servant is the greatest king in heaven and while you see an ordinary person wearing ordinary clothes in realty you are looking at a royal king or queen dressed with the finest robes and linen made of gold a crown and title adorned to them and the most interesting thing is often times they don't even know it
When you see lowly poor man give the only small food he has to one who needs it you are looking at a king when you see a person who instead of throws a fist when attacked humbles themselves you are in the presence of the kingdom of God. The lowest and most poor person on this earth who has the heart of a servant is the greatest king in heaven and while you see an ordinary person wearing ordinary clothes in realty you are looking at a royal king or queen dressed with the finest robes and linen made of gold a crown and title adorned to them and the most interesting thing is often times they don't even know it