The tares (weeds) are born-again, but are going to hell

Yiska · Dec 9, 2016

Jesus provides vignettes to help people understand God's thoughts which are above our thoughts. In another parable (Matthew 13) Jesus talked about all the types of ground that The Word of God could not flourish in. As a person who has spent much time in farming country this is Good News. One thing I remember growing-up is seeing (in the corners of many hay fields) were large piles of stones. In this way and many other ways farmers prepare their fields to become "good ground." People put tin foil plates in their cherry trees and scare crows in fields to help keep birds away; topsoil and compost is put on shallow ground to make it plentiful: thorns are gathered and burned, while chick weed is gathered and feed to livestock.

God wants us to pray for those who are astray, and minister to those who seem to have no good fruit in their lives. People who know about farming can see this in parables such as this one:

"Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground? And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it: And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down." - Luke 13:7-9 King James Version (KJV)

In the above verse we see a servant who is pleading with his Lord not to cut down the fruitless tree until he has done all he can to improve its ground and help it start producing. Abraham was also a man who pleaded with God not to destroy people. While Abraham pleaded for the righteous, Jesus pleads for sinners.

lastofall · Dec 9, 2016

The tares are not at all born again, because according to the Lord Jesus Christ they are of the devil, and cannot be born again in their current state, but only except they repent: and if not, then they shall die in their sins.

ZacharyB · Dec 9, 2016

Grace777x70 said:

IMO, you only talk about verses which appear to back your biases.

Now, how about dealing with what Jesus says in Matthew 13!

Matthew 13:
Jesus' angels will remove the wicked from the kingdom of God,
and throw them in the fire to be burned.

ZacharyB · Dec 9, 2016

Chris2552 said:

Because of the following, I used to be convinced that they were the same ...

“And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you
to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes,
to be cast into hell fire” (Mark 9:47)

“Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the
foundation of the world … inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these,
you did not do it to Me. And these will go away into everlasting punishment,
but the righteous into eternal life.” (Matt 25:34-46)

Entering the kingdom of God appears to be the opposite of being cast into hell.

Inheriting the kingdom of God appears to be for the righteous who gain eternal life.

So, we consider entering the kingdom of God/heaven as gaining eternal life.

ZacharyB · Dec 9, 2016

posthuman said:

Dis might just be the most insane comment dat I've ever read on any Christian forum!
Many hearty congratulations!

Grace777x70 · Dec 9, 2016

ZacharyB said:

I already did in this post below - but it conflicts with your religion and so you don't see it.

http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...-born-again-but-going-hell-5.html#post2896921

The message of the Lord Jesus Christ will always conflict with religion.

Jesus is not a liar. He loves us and if we are in Christ - we are safe in Him.

We can walk after the flesh and this will bring death to us in this earth. Take up shooting heroin in your arms and you will see exactly what I mean.

The Holy Spirit is with us forever Jesus said.

John 14:16-17 (NASB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]"I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever;

[SUP]17 [/SUP]that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.

Ephesians 1:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

The Spirit of truth is with us forever!

2 John 1:2 (NASB)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] for the sake of the truth which abides in us and will be with us forever:

Jesus said that the Holy Spirit will be with us and in us forever. John 14:16-17.

Our Lord is NOT a liar.

John says we are safe in the Lord as He keeps us. Isn't that exciting to know that?

1 John 5:18 (NASB)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him.

Jesus Himself keeps us from the evil one.

We are joined as one spirit with the Lord. in our new creation in Christ - which has been created in righteousness and holiness. 1 Cor. 6:17 Eph. 4:24

ZacharyB · Dec 9, 2016

Depleted said:

You have the correct revelation of this ... so you definitely are worth listening to!

Obviously, you believe OSAS is false.
Obviously, you believe we must persevere.
Obviously, you believe salvation is a process.

P.S. No one desires to see the 10 NT verses that say:
Jimbo needs to endure in in his faith until the end of his life to receive eternal life!

ZacharyB · Dec 9, 2016

Grace777x70 said:

As per always, you ignore the verses that you don't like.
Please take note of verse 15.
Might we consider that the Spirit only remains in those who are obedient?

IMO, believers who are habitual (unrepentant) sinners
are NOT any longer to be considered "in Christ".

[SUP]15[/SUP] If you love Me, keep My commandments.
[SUP]16[/SUP] And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper,
that He may abide with you forever —
[SUP]17[/SUP] the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive,
because it neither sees Him nor knows Him;
but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.

Grace777x70 · Dec 9, 2016

ZacharyB said:

Ohh...thank you. I love verse 15! It speaks of the work of Christ for us in the new creation.

A very big factor in looking at scripture is the "lens" you use to view the scripture.

In the Old Covenant " you had to do or else"..If you do this..then I God will do that.." = conditional on the person performing

All works-based mindsets are based on the Old Covenant which stems from the religious idea that "we do " things in order to receive from the work of Christ.

This is a major stumbling block for those that think they can earn the righteousness of God by what they do.

New Covenant = Jesus has done it for you which empowers you to "do"

Let's take a look at a common scripture with these 2 mindsets.

Jesus said.." If you love Me, you will keep My commandments" John 14:15

Old Covenant mindset= conditional on the person "doing"..

So they would read it this way.."IF you love Me you will keep My commandments"..in their mind it's saying.."Keep My commandment and you will prove you love Me."

New Covenant mindset = it's a description of who you are in Christ.

They would see this "Jesus' love is in me so I keep His commandments"..it stems out of relationship and it is not conditional but descriptive of the believer.

1 John 4:18-19 (NASB)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love.

[SUP]19 [/SUP] We love, because He first loved us.

Then there is more..lol..there seems to be more sometimes eh?..just what are His commandments anyway?..Be perfect as My Father in heaven is perfect?...can we possibly do that?..of course not..that is Moses 2.0

Ahhh..found His commandments in 1 John 3.

1 John 3:23 (NASB)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us.

...the "lens" that we view scriptures greatly affects us. We try to mix the Old Covenant ( before the cross and resurrection ) with the New Covenant and we get a religious mess.

Like mixing works with grace for salvation as in going to be with the Lord for eternity.

Religious traditions of men, philosophies of men, ..what we were told all our lives in church or in the world etc. ..all influence how we view scripture. Sometimes some of our "sacred cows" can get sacrificed and it's painful.

Colossians 2:8 (NASB)
[SUP]8[/SUP] See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ.

ZacharyB · Dec 9, 2016

John 14:[SUP]
15[/SUP] If you love Me, keep My commandments.
[SUP]16[/SUP] And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper,
that He may abide with you forever —
[SUP]17[/SUP] the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive,
because it neither sees Him nor knows Him;
but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.

Perhaps all we read about the Holy Spirit indwelling believers
hinges on their walk with Christ?

Those who really love Him will keep (obey) His commandments!
Today's believers in American churches do not wish to accept this!

All I can think of at the moment is David saying,
"Please, Lord, do not take your Spirit from me?"

Grace777x70 · Dec 9, 2016

And yet we make Jesus a liar when He says that the Holy Spirit will be with us forever by trying to compare someone in the OT who was not born-again by the Spirit of God - was not under the blood of the Lord Jesus Christ.

When we try to mix the Old Covenant with the New Covenant - we end up in a complete mess and it creates a works-based religion such as those born-again in the kingdom of God are going to hell. Complete foolishness.

We have a better covenant based upon better promises and of which the blood of Jesus speaks of better things. We can believe in Christ's finished work for us.

He is faithful - He who began a good work in you will complete it just like He said He would. Phil. 1:6

The Holy Spirit is with us forever Jesus said.

John 14:16-17 (NASB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]"I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever;

[SUP]17 [/SUP]that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.

Ephesians 1:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

The Spirit of truth is with us forever!

2 John 1:2 (NASB)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] for the sake of the truth which abides in us and will be with us forever:

Jesus said that the Holy Spirit will be with us and in us forever. John 14:16-17.

Our Lord is NOT a liar.

John says we are safe in the Lord as He keeps us. Isn't that exciting to know that?

1 John 5:18 (NASB)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him.

Jesus Himself keeps us from the evil one.

Do not let any works-based religions of any form rob you of the security that is in Christ.

Yiska · Dec 9, 2016

ZacharyB said:

I looked closer at your concern and then looked up the passage in the Interlinear Bible which is word for word from the Greek. The online Interlinear Bible also enables a person to look up short definitions and to look up where else in the Bible the same word/s have been applied.

Matthew 13:41 Interlinear Bible

Yiska · Dec 9, 2016

Additionally, with a little study I believe that I may have found an explanation in Revelation 11:15

Chris2552 · Dec 9, 2016

Yes exactly, the kingdom of god is going to be the world, during revelations god is going to wipe out sin from this world, and make it into his kingdom.

Hence the seperation of the tares from the wheat. The removal of unbelievers or those not born again.

Has nothing to do with heaven, the devil can't put unbelievers in heaven. God wouldn't let unbelievers in heaven.

KJV1611 · Dec 9, 2016

ZacharyB said:

.
John 3 (NKJV)
[SUP]3[/SUP] “Most assuredly, I say to you,
unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
[SUP]5[/SUP] “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit,
he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
[SUP]6[/SUP] That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

John 3 (NLT)
[SUP]3 [/SUP]“I tell you the truth,
unless you are born again, you cannot see the Kingdom of God.”
[SUP]5 [/SUP]“I assure you, no one can enter the Kingdom of God without being born of water and the Spirit.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Humans can reproduce only human life, but the Holy Spirit gives birth to spiritual life.

John 3 (TLB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP]“With all the earnestness I possess I tell you this:
Unless you are born again, you can never get into the Kingdom of God.”
[SUP]5 [/SUP]“What I am telling you so earnestly is this:
Unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the Kingdom of God.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Men can only reproduce human life, but the Holy Spirit gives new life from heaven

(From the above) Jesus says:
Everyone in the kingdom of God has been born-again!

Matthew 13 (NLT) • Jesus’ Explanation of His Parable of the Wheat and Weeds
[SUP]37 [/SUP]The Son of Man is the farmer who plants the good seed.
[SUP]38 [/SUP]The field is the world, and the good seed represents the people of the Kingdom.
The weeds are the people who belong to the evil one.
[SUP]39 [/SUP]The enemy who planted the weeds among the wheat is the devil.
The harvest is the end of the world, and the harvesters are the angels.
[SUP]40 [/SUP]Just as the weeds are sorted out and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the world.
[SUP]41 [/SUP]The Son of Man will send his angels, and
they will remove from his Kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil.
[SUP]42 [/SUP]And the angels will throw them into the fiery furnace,
where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

The NASB states the underlined like this:
[SUP]41[/SUP] “they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks,
and those who commit lawlessness”

The Amplified Bible (2015 edition) states the underlined like this:
[SUP]41[/SUP] “they will gather out of His kingdom all causes of offense
[persons by whom others are drawn into error or sin]
and all who do iniquity and act wickedly”

The Kingdom of God has both Good and Bad seeds planted in it.
Everyone in the kingdom of God has been born-again.
What happens to the 2 types of born-again people in the Kingdom?

v.38 … the good seed represents the people that Jesus planted in the Kingdom
v.39 … the weeds were planted among the wheat by the enemy, the devil
v.40 … the weeds are sorted out and burned in the fire
v.41 … the angels will remove everything (the weeds) that causes sin and all who do evil
v.42 … the angels will throw them (the weeds) into the fiery furnace

How can the tares be born again when tare seeds are not the same kind of seed as the good seeds... i.e. wheat seeds verses rag weed seeds. Those two are not the same plant.

Chris2552 · Dec 9, 2016

Zach, sin comes from the flesh, not the spirit. We sin because of the desires of the flesh, the desire to sin does not come from the spirit given to us by God.

Thats why we are told to walk in the spirit and not the flesh. Because the spirit we are given after baptism, always wants to do the right thing, no matter what. We can't sin in the spirit. We may ignore it, the spirit has not sinned, its told us to do the right thing, but the flesh has sinned.

Hence those who have not received the spirit of God, still have the spirit of the world, and that spirit will always sin in Gods eyes and the price of sin is death.

Therefore those without the spirit of god, will never see the kingdom of God, but the spirit given to us by God is always righteous and sinless. Once the flesh goes, the desire to sin also goes because all sin, comes from the flesh

NarrowRoadDisciple · Dec 9, 2016

Chris2552 said:

Indeed, and until we receive our glorified bodies, we still have flesh bodies that have fleshly desires.
This is why we are exhorted by God to walk in the Spirit and not by the flesh and to bring all thoughts captive unto the Lord. Only in Him can we have real power. When we walk by the flesh, we reap what comes from the flesh. When we walk by the Spirit, we can have victory in Christ.

notmyown · Dec 10, 2016

ZacharyB said:

i think you're not grasping the doctrine of perseverance of the saints.

those whom God saves, He enables to persevere to the end. like this--

Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy, to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen. (Jude 1:24-25)

yes, we have to persevere.
and no, not by our own strength.

plainguy · Dec 10, 2016

notmyown said:

Amen notmyown

. Of our own strength, we can do nothing. Never could. It's when we accept this truth about ourselves that we truly learn to lean on Him in all things. And give Him all the glory

.

notmyown · Dec 10, 2016

plainguy said:

well... yeah! who's gonna stand in His presence and brag about how they kept themselves??

He will not share His glory with another, i think He said.

"without Me, you can do nothing."

i looked up the Greek... it means 'nothing'. lol

The tares (weeds) are born-again, but are going to hell

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