The words of "others"

[elf3]

OK let's look at the subject of "teachers" this way. We should all agree that only the Bible is infallible in its teaching. Besides Jesus there is no teacher who is infallible.

Let's use Spurgeon as an example. Let's say I am reading all of Spurgeon's sermons (quite a feat). There might be a few with which I totally agree upon and there might be a few that don't quite seem right. I am allowing the Holy Spirit to teach me through these sermons. Some Biblically correct some Biblically incorrect. I proof everything he says against the Bible. I find some of his teaching spot on but I find some that go against God's Word. I will follow God's Word in the teaching so I will reject some of Spurgeon's teaching.

Now let's say I am doing the same thing without proofing it against God's Word or allowing the Holy Spirit to guide me. I will for sure end up following Spurgeon's teaching and some of that teaching will be incorrect Biblically.

We are to use these teachers to help us understand God's Word but we are not to take their writing as truth unless they are 100 % Biblically correct. I seriously doubt we will ever find a "human" teacher beyond Christ who is 100 % Biblically correct. We must therefore completely rely upon the Holy Spirit when reading the writing of someone else. If we do this then He will teach us His truth through the writing of someone else. If we just rely upon the writing of a particular person then we have essentially created a "new cult" based on what this other person has said.

It can be a very fine line between truth and lie hense why we must rely 100 % upon the Holy Spirit for guidance.

 

[elf3]

Yes each person is given a measure of faith and lead at different times to accept different parts of His way.
Those that get on my nerves though is those who go to a bible college or seminary school for 4-6 years and think they know the bible perfectly cover to cover, and nobody can reveal by the Spirit anything new to them.

The word of God takes well more then 4-6 years to understand things completely and perfectly, as I know preachers who have over 25 years of study under their belt and they say they are revealed new truths still every year in the word.

Also if it is opposing views we can not really call them brothers and sisters in Christ, because the word of God says that there will be false teachers and that there is only one way through Christ unto eternal life, and part of that path through Christ is one sound doctrine not many opposing or differentiating doctrines.

As example: If a person claims that departing from the faith and not ending up with eternal life is impossible then they are speaking a contradictory doctrine message, for 1 Timothy 4 clearly says the Holy Spirit says that it is possible.

Plus the true definition of apostasy is one who was once in the truth but is now in false doctrine/teaching.

My dad has been a youth minister and pastor for over 50 years. He will be the first to admit that he does not know everything about God's Word. I will admit that I for sure do not know everything about God's Word. I agree with you that there are some who think that "they know it all" because of schooling. If someone knows it all then why is it so hard for anyone to perfectly explain the Trinity? Simple...because not a single one of us knows everything about God. There are some things that God keeps hidden from us about Himself so it is impossible for anyone to "know it all". Our pride is where this thinking comes from. Shoot satan knows more about God than any of us and he doesn't know it all. He knows just enough to cause us to twist God's Word in an incorrect way. He uses false teachers to draw us away from truth just enough so that we have an incorrect understanding of God's Word. We also know just enough to twist God's Word to what we want which is why God has given us teachers to help us in our growth. We must constantly be on guard for false teaching and rely upon the Holy Spirit to help us sort out truth from lies.

 

[KennethC]

Yes we do have to rely 100% on God that He will by His Holy Spirit lead us in all truth.

That fine line is a very narrow road for any deviation from the sound doctrine of Christ makes it a false doctrine that has no power to save through Jesus Christ. We must remember that not all that call Jesus Lord will get eternal life, and also even Paul says that just because some may mention the name Jesus the Jesus they preach on in their doctrines is different then the one from the gospel books.

(Luke 13:24) Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

Many will seek to enter and not be able to is because some will hear the name of Jesus and the good news, but will not adhere to following His sound doctrine (teachings and commands).

Here is some of the things I have been lead by the Holy Spirit to look for in others responses;

1) Do they deny we have to keep the Lord's teachings and commands

2) Do they use the Sword (word of God) in their responses......book, chapter, verse #

3) Do they have any love, exhortation, or esteeming by the word of God to others after rebuking or reproving another

4) Do they teach hatred is allowed toward others

5) Do they teach Apostle Paul taught a different gospel then our Lord Jesus, doing away with or overriding His teachings and commands

 

[MadParrotWoman]

Apologies to elf for going slightly off topic but when I read comments on threads such as this one I think to myself "is it any wonder the lost do not come to Christ when we can't even agree on anything ourselves?" Sometimes we are His worst enemies in the way we conduct ourselves among our own. Just sayin'.

 

[KennethC]

Apologies to elf for going slightly off topic but when I read comments on threads such as this one I think to myself "is it any wonder the lost do not come to Christ when we can't even agree on anything ourselves?" Sometimes we are His worst enemies in the way we conduct ourselves among our own. Just sayin'.

This here is why we must be careful because it is the evil one who wants this division to happen, he will lead others to believe that those who constantly oppose others or have unedifying attitudes toward others are following the true gospel teachings of Christ when they are not.

Love for all is expressed throughout the new testament, and is part of that sound doctrine.
We are told by Apostle Paul that there is not to be any divisions between us and we are all to come together with one mind (sound doctrine), and not be carried away by every whim of man that changes the gospel of Christ to a means to allow lewdness (acceptance of continuous sinning).

 

[shotgunner]

I completely agree with what you have said but would add to that though that if the people who are in discussion with one another are giving opposing views, they both can not have received their information from the Holy Spirit.

For the Holy Spirit can not tell one person one thing and then tell another something that contradicts what He told the other.

We pray to God for understanding and through the Holy Spirit He will give us that understanding, either personally or He will guide us to another for that info. We are never to seek out others without His guidance !!!

Kenneth, Often I think that we who believe we have heard from God don't disagree as much as we might think. I think we simply sometimes add to the actual revelation with our own understanding.

Take for example you and I. We agree on about 90% of what we discuss with each other. I don't see that 10% as causing either of us to be wrong, as if one of us didn't hear correctly. That 10% is more likely a failure to communicate brought about by our personal views. I think that if we could simply see through each other's hearts we could agree 100%.

 

[KennethC]

Kenneth, Often I think that we who believe we have heard from God don't disagree as much as we might think. I think we simply sometimes add to the actual revelation with our own understanding.

Take for example you and I. We agree on about 90% of what we discuss with each other. I don't see that 10% as causing either of us to be wrong, as if one of us didn't hear correctly. That 10% is more likely a failure to communicate brought about by our personal views. I think that if we could simply see through each other's hearts we could agree 100%.

Yes I understand that and I am not talking about situations like you and me have where we only don't agree a small percentage of time because even in those we stay respectful and friendly with one another.

I am speaking on those who blatantly twist the word, add or take away from it, and constantly belittle or demean others in unedifying ways. Those who do this are not operating in the Spirit and of the sound doctrine of Christ, nor are those who constantly say Jesus teachings in the gospel books were for the old covenant or Jews only.

Stating the last underlined part by some means they deny the great commission in Matthew 28:19-20..........

 

[convallaria]

This here is why we must be careful because it is the evil one who wants this division to happen, he will lead others to believe that those who constantly oppose others or have unedifying attitudes toward others are following the true gospel teachings of Christ when they are not.

Love for all is expressed throughout the new testament, and is part of that sound doctrine.
We are told by Apostle Paul that there is not to be any divisions between us and we are all to come together with one mind (sound doctrine), and not be carried away by every whim of man that changes the gospel of Christ to a means to allow lewdness (acceptance of continuous sinning).

Unity in the Holy Spirit is not really hard to achieve, while light having fellowship with darkness is to be avoided

One of the red flag triggers for me is when someone says something blatantly unbiblical and then goes to great lengths to prove they are right. Why would anyone need to do that if it were true? What things God has taught us Himself are a like solid building blocks in the edification of our faith. Whereas false doctrines tend to undermine that building work and question everything we know that we know.

The enemy has not come but to kill to steal and destroy.

If someone shows me something I don't know, that's awesome. If someone shows me where I am going wrong, that's even better.

But if someone tries to tell me something is black when it is clearly white...if you know what I mean....I have to wonder about their foundation.

 

[JesusistheChrist]

I know you did not say "everyone". But by the placement of the word "people" in your sentence it can mean "everyone" and by using the word "people" in the way you did it includes "everyone". If you did not mean it that way you should have said "some people". And by your argument you did reject this quote by Spurgeon. You immediately said "who said.." then you follow it up by responding "Spurgeon?" Can you prove that Spurgeon is wrong by saying "certain people"? By his use of the words "certain people" Spurgeon is completely correct in that "certain people"... "think so little of what the Holy Spirit has revealed to others".

Oh, please. I used the word "everyone" in relation to those who think themselves to be teachers and you apparently misread my post. I used the word "people" in regard to Spurgeon's "certain men". Personally, I cannot recall ever encountering anybody who rejected teachers altogether and that is why I questioned the validity of Spurgeon's assertion. In fact, my own experience has been heavily tilted to the polar extreme. IOW, I've personally encountered multitudes of people over the last 27 years who rely heavily on "teachers" and you cannot even get any of them to talk about Jesus. I say "Jesus" and they say, "Charles Stanley, Rick Warren, Joel Osteen, John McArthur, Chuck Swindoll, etc., etc., etc." ad infinitum. I'm not joking. In the last 27 years, I can literally remember 2 people out of thousands upon thousands of professing Christians whom I've personally encountered face to face who actually were willing to speak with me about Jesus without shifting the conversation to what their favorite "teacher" had to say. 2 people in 27 years...and I'm not exaggerating or lying.

My point is that God has given us teachers to help us understand His Word. To find out who these teachers truly are we need the guidance of the Holy Spirit. We cannot rely upon ourselves as there are so many "false teachers" out there who speak so well that they can twist one little word thus changing the whole meaning of a verse.

The best example of this is what the Jehovahs Witness do in their "false" Bible the "The New World Translation". In John 1:1 they add a single letter to completely change the true meaning of the verse. Because we rely on the Holy Spirit for guidance and understanding, we as true followers of Christ, know that their translation is completely wrong and blasphemous. I worked with two guys who are JW and because they followed the teaching of this "cult" they refused to see the error in this verse. They relied upon someone besides the Holy Spirit for teaching and understanding.

I agree with what you said here, but such a problem is not limited to Jehovah's Witnesses by any means. Again, my personal face to face experience with multitudes of professing Christians over the last 27 years tells me that they're pretty much all "cult members" in the manner in which you just described. IOW, you can't admonish any of them to actually prove things according to the scriptures. Their favorite "pastor", "evangelist", "teacher", "prophet", whoever said it and therefore it is true. Again, I'm not exaggerating or lying. Perhaps this hasn't been your own experience, but God knows that it's been mine and it's horrifyingly scary.

 

[JesusistheChrist]

OK let's look at the subject of "teachers" this way. We should all agree that only the Bible is infallible in its teaching. Besides Jesus there is no teacher who is infallible.

Let's use Spurgeon as an example. Let's say I am reading all of Spurgeon's sermons (quite a feat). There might be a few with which I totally agree upon and there might be a few that don't quite seem right. I am allowing the Holy Spirit to teach me through these sermons. Some Biblically correct some Biblically incorrect. I proof everything he says against the Bible. I find some of his teaching spot on but I find some that go against God's Word. I will follow God's Word in the teaching so I will reject some of Spurgeon's teaching.

Now let's say I am doing the same thing without proofing it against God's Word or allowing the Holy Spirit to guide me. I will for sure end up following Spurgeon's teaching and some of that teaching will be incorrect Biblically.

We are to use these teachers to help us understand God's Word but we are not to take their writing as truth unless they are 100 % Biblically correct. I seriously doubt we will ever find a "human" teacher beyond Christ who is 100 % Biblically correct. We must therefore completely rely upon the Holy Spirit when reading the writing of someone else. If we do this then He will teach us His truth through the writing of someone else. If we just rely upon the writing of a particular person then we have essentially created a "new cult" based on what this other person has said.

It can be a very fine line between truth and lie hense why we must rely 100 % upon the Holy Spirit for guidance.

This is precisely the point that I was seeking to make earlier. As I said, even Spurgeon was wrong in certain points. As such, even though we shouldn't totally disregard teachers, we still need to prove everything that they say against the rightly divided Word of God to see whether or not they are true or false teachers.

 

[JesusistheChrist]

I agree with you on this. As there are always two sides to an argument one is right and one is wrong. As I said before we must rely on the Holy Spirit for understanding. We must also remember that we are brothers and sisters in Christ so therefore certain things should not be argued so much that we end up "at each other's throats". God teaches each one of us in different ways and also at different "speeds". What you might know now God has not revealed to me yet as I am not ready for that teaching. The same goes the other way. We must allow God to teach each one of us at His "speed" not ours. We must also be "willing" to learn from someone else. I am sure I have learned things from you and you have learned things from me but we don't realize it because it was the Holy Spirit doing the teaching not you or I.

I personally think it is really neat when I see how God used someone else to teach me something. I proofed what they said against God's Word then all the sudden the "lights come on" and I think "wow that was cool".

I honestly don't want to single out your posts, but there are often more than two sides to an argument and often two disputing factions are both wrong. Take, for example, the timing of Christ's return. Well, some say that it's pre-trib, some say mid-trib, some say post-trib, some say post-trib/pre-wrath...and some say that He's already returned (the lunatic fringe). We've seen these arguments here and people disputing two of the above options can easily both be wrong and they often are.

 

[KennethC]

Unity in the Holy Spirit is not really hard to achieve, while light having fellowship with darkness is to be avoided

One of the red flag triggers for me is when someone says something blatantly unbiblical and then goes to great lengths to prove they are right. Why would anyone need to do that if it were true? What things God has taught us Himself are a like solid building blocks in the edification of our faith. Whereas false doctrines tend to undermine that building work and question everything we know that we know.

The enemy has not come but to kill to steal and destroy.

If someone shows me something I don't know, that's awesome. If someone shows me where I am going wrong, that's even better.

But if someone tries to tell me something is black when it is clearly white...if you know what I mean....I have to wonder about their foundation.

Yes I see where you come from here as I see constantly where people reverse the order of things in the scriptures, and to keep this thread from getting derailed I will use letters instead of the actual misuse of scripture.

If the scriptures say A and then B takes place and then C comes later, it amazes how many debate and try to say C comes first then A and B, or they say A comes then C and B is a result of C.

 

[cmarieh]

God has shown me in the last few years to ask for wisdom and understanding from others, but I am extremely careful who I ask and what I take from it. The first thing I do is pray who to go to for a concern and when they give me their views on it, I pray a second time and dig into the word of God. If the advice or viewpoint doesn't line up with the word I don't take it because the bible is truth and people misinterpret and allow their feelings to take over. God knows what will happen as he created the heavens and the earth so for that reason I don't question the bible which I believe is the inherent word of God and he knows best.

And what do people know compared to what God knows? We are nothing without him

 

[elf3]

I honestly don't want to single out your posts, but there are often more than two sides to an argument and often two disputing factions are both wrong. Take, for example, the timing of Christ's return. Well, some say that it's pre-trib, some say mid-trib, some say post-trib, some say post-trib/pre-wrath...and some say that He's already returned (the lunatic fringe). We've seen these arguments here and people disputing two of the above options can easily both be wrong and they often are.

There are always only two sides in an argument. A right one and a wrong one. If they are both wrong or both right then it's only one side of the argument. By your example of the timing of Christ's return only one of them is right. In your example we have about 4 or 5 maybe even more arguments on this subject but only one would be right. The other arguments would be "facets" of the wrong argument. Still only two sides one right one wrong. Sometimes they are so hard to distinguish we see it as more than two sides but it is still only two sides.

And as for my JW example you are correct that they are not the only group doing this but I only mentioned them because I have had direct contact and discussions with them.

 

[convallaria]

This is precisely the point that I was seeking to make earlier. As I said, even Spurgeon was wrong in certain points. As such, even though we shouldn't totally disregard teachers, we still need to prove everything that they say against the rightly divided Word of God to see whether or not they are true or false teachers.

I think that teachers in the ministry and calling of teacher are not the same as members of the body who are apt to teach. It is a bit like the prophetic aspects of ministry are not the same as the office of prophet in the congregation.

Some things are 100% clear and simple, so much so that you know they must be delivered exactly as they are received. They do not need to be ruminated on and intellectualized because they come from the Lord directly as revelation. Such is that which is received by someone who is a teacher in the Lord.

Other things however, within the liberty an individual has in his walk, give room for latitudes of expression of faith, as follows:

Romans 14:14 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

That to me is an enormous verse that demands a sermon. We know that whatsoever is not of faith is sin. If a brother or sister in faith is doing something that we think is unacceptable, but he sees it as "clean" to do, we must not criticize but note verse 15:

But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died.

So out of love we do not destroy the faith of others who believe they must do things a certain way, even if ourselves we have faith to do otherwise.

False teachers are therefore those who would state something false as though it is true, and received by revelation. They are not necessarily those who would simply disagree with how another conducts himself in the body.

 

[convallaria]

Yes I see where you come from here as I see constantly where people reverse the order of things in the scriptures, and to keep this thread from getting derailed I will use letters instead of the actual misuse of scripture.

If the scriptures say A and then B takes place and then C comes later, it amazes how many debate and try to say C comes first then A and B, or they say A comes then C and B is a result of C.

Haha I totally understand

 

[JesusistheChrist]

I think that teachers in the ministry and calling of teacher are not the same as members of the body who are apt to teach. It is a bit like the prophetic aspects of ministry are not the same as the office of prophet in the congregation.

Some things are 100% clear and simple, so much so that you know they must be delivered exactly as they are received. They do not need to be ruminated on and intellectualized because they come from the Lord directly as revelation. Such is that which is received by someone who is a teacher in the Lord.

Other things however, within the liberty an individual has in his walk, give room for latitudes of expression of faith, as follows:

Romans 14:14 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

That to me is an enormous verse that demands a sermon. We know that whatsoever is not of faith is sin. If a brother or sister in faith is doing something that we think is unacceptable, but he sees it as "clean" to do, we must not criticize but note verse 15:

But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died.

So out of love we do not destroy the faith of others who believe they must do things a certain way, even if ourselves we have faith to do otherwise.

False teachers are therefore those who would state something false as though it is true, and received by revelation. They are not necessarily those who would simply disagree with how another conducts himself in the body.

If you ask me, then Peter gave a pretty thorough description of "false teachers" in II Peter chapter 2:

"But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not. For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly; And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly; And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked: (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds); The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished: But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities. Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord. But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption; And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you; Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children: Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness; But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet. These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever. For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error. While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage. For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire." (II Peter 2:1-22)

I'd venture to say that the aforementioned "damnable heresies" which are propagated by "false teachers" are not only prevalent throughout much of professing Christendom, but also that some of them are prevalent right here on this forum.

 

[elf3]

OK here is a question that pertains to this subject of "teachers". Since God has ordained some to be teaches ect ect do we think God still inspires the writing of these people He has ordained? DISCLAIMER; I am not saying in the same way that the Bible is the inspired Word of God but that God has and does inspire certain writings. I am also not saying all of the writings someone may have writen but certain parts of it. For example like the same way God inspires certain sermons by pastors.

 

[JesusistheChrist]

OK here is a question that pertains to this subject of "teachers". Since God has ordained some to be teaches ect ect do we think God still inspires the writing of these people He has ordained? DISCLAIMER; I am not saying in the same way that the Bible is the inspired Word of God but that God has and does inspire certain writings. I am also not saying all of the writings someone may have writen but certain parts of it. For example like the same way God inspires certain sermons by pastors.

Yes, He does.

 

[elf3]

I believe He does also. I asked the question to someone years ago and they argued that God does not inspire any more. I thought that a pretty odd response as through the inspiration of others is one of the ways God teaches us. They even said pastors are not inspired. They said God's inspiration "died" along with the last Apostle of Christ. I was kind of "dumbfounded" by that.