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Pardon me! Here are some backgrounds on both of the above uninspired texts!
The EPISTLE of Barnabas
"Nothing certain is known as to the author of the following Epistle. The writer's name is Barnabas, but scarcely any scholars now ascribe it to the illustrious friend and companion of St. Paul. External and internal evidence here come into direct collision. The ancient writers who refer to this Epistle unanimously attribute it to Barnabas the Levite, of Cyprus, who held such an honourable place in the infant Church. Clement of Alexandria does so again and again (Strom., ii. 6, ii. 7, etc.). Origen describes it as "a Catholic Epistle" (Cont. Cels., i. 63), and seems to rank it among the Sacred Scriptures (Comm. in Rom., i. 24). Other statements have been quoted from the fathers, to show that they held this to be an authentic production of the apostolic Barnabas; and certainly no other name is ever hinted at in Christian antiquity as that of the writer. But notwithstanding this, the internal evidence is now generally regarded as conclusive against this opinion. On perusing the Epistle, the reader will be in circumstances to judge of this matter for himself. He will be led to consider whether the spirit and tone of the writing, as so decidedly opposed to all respect for Judaism-the numerous inaccuracies which it contains with respect to Mosaic enactments and observances-the absurd and trifling interpretations of Scripture which it suggests-and the many silly vaunts of superior knowledge in which its writer indulges-can possibly comport with its ascription to the fellow-labourer of St. Paul. When it is remembered that no one ascribes the Epistle to the apostolic Barnabas till the times of Clement of Alexandria, and that it is ranked by Eusebius among the "spurious" writings, which, however much known and read in the Church, were never regarded as authoritative, little doubt can remain that the external evidence is of itself weak, and should not make us hesitate for a moment in refusing to ascribe this writing to Barnabas the Apostle."
Introductory Note to the Epistle of Barnabas. - Bible Study Tools
The Acts of Barnabas
The text of the pseudepigraphical Acts of Barnabas claims to identify its author as "John Mark," the companion of Paul, as if writing an account of Barnabas, the Cypriot Jew who was a member of the earliest church at Jerusalem; through the services of Barnabas, the convert Saul was welcomed into the apostolic community. Three pseudepigraphical works are linked with the name of Barnabas: the Epistle of Barnabas, written between AD 70 and 135, this Acts and the medieval text Gospel of Barnabas. None of them were accepted into the Biblical canon.
The language and the ecclesiastical politics of Acts of Barnabas reveal it to be a work of the 5th century, designed to strengthen the claims of the church of Cyprus to apostolic foundation as the site of Barnabas' grave, and therefore of its bishops' independence from the patriarch of Antioch. These are 5th century concerns, the independence of the Church of Cyprus having been declared by the First Council of Ephesus in 431 and confirmed by Emperor Zeno in 488."
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acts_of_Barnabas
The EPISTLE of Barnabas
"Nothing certain is known as to the author of the following Epistle. The writer's name is Barnabas, but scarcely any scholars now ascribe it to the illustrious friend and companion of St. Paul. External and internal evidence here come into direct collision. The ancient writers who refer to this Epistle unanimously attribute it to Barnabas the Levite, of Cyprus, who held such an honourable place in the infant Church. Clement of Alexandria does so again and again (Strom., ii. 6, ii. 7, etc.). Origen describes it as "a Catholic Epistle" (Cont. Cels., i. 63), and seems to rank it among the Sacred Scriptures (Comm. in Rom., i. 24). Other statements have been quoted from the fathers, to show that they held this to be an authentic production of the apostolic Barnabas; and certainly no other name is ever hinted at in Christian antiquity as that of the writer. But notwithstanding this, the internal evidence is now generally regarded as conclusive against this opinion. On perusing the Epistle, the reader will be in circumstances to judge of this matter for himself. He will be led to consider whether the spirit and tone of the writing, as so decidedly opposed to all respect for Judaism-the numerous inaccuracies which it contains with respect to Mosaic enactments and observances-the absurd and trifling interpretations of Scripture which it suggests-and the many silly vaunts of superior knowledge in which its writer indulges-can possibly comport with its ascription to the fellow-labourer of St. Paul. When it is remembered that no one ascribes the Epistle to the apostolic Barnabas till the times of Clement of Alexandria, and that it is ranked by Eusebius among the "spurious" writings, which, however much known and read in the Church, were never regarded as authoritative, little doubt can remain that the external evidence is of itself weak, and should not make us hesitate for a moment in refusing to ascribe this writing to Barnabas the Apostle."
Introductory Note to the Epistle of Barnabas. - Bible Study Tools
The Acts of Barnabas
The text of the pseudepigraphical Acts of Barnabas claims to identify its author as "John Mark," the companion of Paul, as if writing an account of Barnabas, the Cypriot Jew who was a member of the earliest church at Jerusalem; through the services of Barnabas, the convert Saul was welcomed into the apostolic community. Three pseudepigraphical works are linked with the name of Barnabas: the Epistle of Barnabas, written between AD 70 and 135, this Acts and the medieval text Gospel of Barnabas. None of them were accepted into the Biblical canon.
The language and the ecclesiastical politics of Acts of Barnabas reveal it to be a work of the 5th century, designed to strengthen the claims of the church of Cyprus to apostolic foundation as the site of Barnabas' grave, and therefore of its bishops' independence from the patriarch of Antioch. These are 5th century concerns, the independence of the Church of Cyprus having been declared by the First Council of Ephesus in 431 and confirmed by Emperor Zeno in 488."
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acts_of_Barnabas
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I would stop talking if I were you!
The writings after Revelation were not inspired. Not from the Holy Spirit, although perhaps from men who were inspired or led by the Holy Spirit. But not perfect, which is the standard we require from the Bible.
Really, once again, this is your Catholic background coming out- in which the "early church fathers" are revered as equal to the Bible.
So I think you should read my above post. About the two pseudopigrapha you mentioned which are NOT canon, not reliable and not even accurate.
This is why you really should go to Seminary, Kenneth. Because you are being led astray in so many ways. You might learn how to correctly interpret both the Bible. And to understand the difference between the Bible and the writings which we use for some historical information, but not to guide doctrine or our lives in any way, shape or form!
The writings after Revelation were not inspired. Not from the Holy Spirit, although perhaps from men who were inspired or led by the Holy Spirit. But not perfect, which is the standard we require from the Bible.
Really, once again, this is your Catholic background coming out- in which the "early church fathers" are revered as equal to the Bible.
So I think you should read my above post. About the two pseudopigrapha you mentioned which are NOT canon, not reliable and not even accurate.
This is why you really should go to Seminary, Kenneth. Because you are being led astray in so many ways. You might learn how to correctly interpret both the Bible. And to understand the difference between the Bible and the writings which we use for some historical information, but not to guide doctrine or our lives in any way, shape or form!
K
Be careful with your sources because both have been attributed to the 2nd century by many scholars, not the 5th century as your statement on the Acts of Barnabas says.
Also I can tell you first source is wrong because it mentions Origen calling it a Catholic epistle.
The Catholic church did not exist tell the 4th century, it was not around in the 2nd century when this epistle was written.
What proof do you have that the writings after Revelation was not inspired by the Holy Spirit ???
There you go again trying to make this a Catholic thing when this has nothing to do with them or their church, and I did read your above post and showed how they were in error. For a 2nd century document can not be that of the Catholic church which did not exist tell the 4th century.
I correctly interpret the bible just fine thanks to God and His Holy Spirit, I do not need to put men before Him.
Do you still believe falling away from the faith and not ending up with eternal life is impossible ???
Which would be denying Apostle Paul's words in Acts 20:28-31 and 1 Timothy 4, not to mention also James 5:12-20.
E
So basically Ken you are saying the Bible is incomplete and there are books that should not have been added. So God allowed "men" to compile His Word which is in a sense wrong? So are we reading the Word of God that is actually incorrect? So God has let this "inaccurate" Bible exist without Him "fixing" it? If any or all of these are true then what can we believe in God's Word if one little part is wrong?
Hi Ken, I am sorry to see that the Holy Spirit was quenched on this thread since I last visited 
Therefore in an effort to restore us to our more joyful position....
....I agree with what you said above, and the process of making it a gospel of man seems to me to be very subtle, so that things appealing intellectually are favoured over the clear word of God, or things said by people who are regarded as scholars are favoured, regardless of what God says clearly.
Often I feel I want to go back to the Gospels and speak Jesus' words because that simplicity is too often abandoned.
Jesus said Matt 18:3
And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Also Luke 18:17
Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein.
Easy enough, you would think lol.
Then Paul backs this up by his experience in 1 Cor 2 1 And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.
2 For I determined not to know any thing among you,
save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.
4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom,
but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
And further down in the chapter he says something interesting, that there are 2 types of spiritual under the Holy Ghost’s eye:
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world (1),
but the spirit which is of God; (2)
that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth,
but which the Holy Ghost teacheth;
comparing spiritual things with spiritual. (1 and 2)
….There is the the stuff which man’s wisdom speaks… and then there is that which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual with spiritual.
IMO man’s wisdom will lead us up the garden path into dangerous complexity, while the Holy Spirit will always straighten things out in simplicity.
It's all in there Ken!!!
Therefore in an effort to restore us to our more joyful position........I agree with what you said above, and the process of making it a gospel of man seems to me to be very subtle, so that things appealing intellectually are favoured over the clear word of God, or things said by people who are regarded as scholars are favoured, regardless of what God says clearly.
Often I feel I want to go back to the Gospels and speak Jesus' words because that simplicity is too often abandoned.
Jesus said Matt 18:3
And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Also Luke 18:17
Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein.
Easy enough, you would think lol.
Then Paul backs this up by his experience in 1 Cor 2 1 And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.
2 For I determined not to know any thing among you,
save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.
4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom,
but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
And further down in the chapter he says something interesting, that there are 2 types of spiritual under the Holy Ghost’s eye:
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world (1),
but the spirit which is of God; (2)
that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth,
but which the Holy Ghost teacheth;
comparing spiritual things with spiritual. (1 and 2)
….There is the the stuff which man’s wisdom speaks… and then there is that which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual with spiritual.
IMO man’s wisdom will lead us up the garden path into dangerous complexity, while the Holy Spirit will always straighten things out in simplicity.
It's all in there Ken!!!
i'm perplexed.... why wouldn't we want to stand on the shoulders of God gifted teachers?
both those who came before and those who are with us now?
GOD gave them the gift of teaching for the edification and building up of the Body.
that's good enough for me.
both those who came before and those who are with us now?
GOD gave them the gift of teaching for the edification and building up of the Body.
that's good enough for me.
So in these modern times we have things like cessationism which contradicts all the scriptures relating to the gifts of the Spirit; we have pretribulation rapture which cannot be supported in the light of Matthew 24, Mark 13, the last trumpet and the day of the Lord; we have all manner of "isms" such as calvinism, preterism, hypercalvinism, dispensationalism, and probably no end of other isms I can't currently bring to mind.
None of these things were known to the early church but have developed over the centuries causing divisions and schisms and so we have all the denominations in the church today.
When we all die and come face to face with Jesus, there will not be different gates for pentecostals cessationinsts methodists calvinists etc. There is One Lord, one faith.
Only One way: Jesus
He is the Way the Truth and the Life
No man cometh to the Father but by Him
And He said ye must be born again.
Everything follows from there
P
The problem is that many are acclaimed as God-gifted teachers while teaching things that are plainly inscriptural. The Holy Ghost never contradicts Himself. A teacher who is called by God is able to expound the scriptures without denominational bias and without changing one word of what we read in the Bible.
So in these modern times we have things like cessationism which contradicts all the scriptures relating to the gifts of the Spirit; we have pretribulation rapture which cannot be supported in the light of Matthew 24, Mark 13, the last trumpet and the day of the Lord; we have all manner of "isms" such as calvinism, preterism, hypercalvinism, dispensationalism, and probably no end of other isms I can't currently bring to mind.
None of these things were known to the early church but have developed over the centuries causing divisions and schisms and so we have all the denominations in the church today.
When we all die and come face to face with Jesus, there will not be different gates for pentecostals cessationinsts methodists calvinists etc. There is One Lord, one faith.
Only One way: Jesus
He is the Way the Truth and the Life
No man cometh to the Father but by Him
And He said ye must be born again.
Everything follows from there
So in these modern times we have things like cessationism which contradicts all the scriptures relating to the gifts of the Spirit; we have pretribulation rapture which cannot be supported in the light of Matthew 24, Mark 13, the last trumpet and the day of the Lord; we have all manner of "isms" such as calvinism, preterism, hypercalvinism, dispensationalism, and probably no end of other isms I can't currently bring to mind.
None of these things were known to the early church but have developed over the centuries causing divisions and schisms and so we have all the denominations in the church today.
When we all die and come face to face with Jesus, there will not be different gates for pentecostals cessationinsts methodists calvinists etc. There is One Lord, one faith.
Only One way: Jesus
He is the Way the Truth and the Life
No man cometh to the Father but by Him
And He said ye must be born again.
Everything follows from there
and 'isms' aren't bad in themselves so long as they're Scriptural.
for example, i bet you're okay with 'continuationism', right?
1 John 2
24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.
26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.
26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
well, i certainly agree we should have teachers who teach Biblical truth and listen only to them.
and 'isms' aren't bad in themselves so long as they're Scriptural.
for example, i bet you're okay with 'continuationism', right?
and 'isms' aren't bad in themselves so long as they're Scriptural.
for example, i bet you're okay with 'continuationism', right?
I used to read a lot of Watchman Nee in the early days of being saved. He seemed to have an experience that matched up perfectly with the word of God and I was impressed. There came a time when I stopped reading those things because they can become habitual and subtly divert you from what God wants to say to you in the present tense.
Difficulties and struggle seemed to propel me into a new era of trusting God for instruction, because there were problems in the present tense and I couldn't be looking it all up in books...although the Lord did send me stuff at the beginning so that I didn't think I was going mad when the people in church that I should have been able to trust turned on me and lied about me.
Having discovered that the Lord indeed is an ever-present help in time of trouble, it kind of weaned me off all the "how-to" books and popular doctrine.
I like your gracious responses
P
i don't wish to be argumentative. but let's not forget the preceding verses for context.
These things I have written to you concerning those who are trying to deceive you (v 26)
in verses 18-23 John is warning the believers about antichrists.... those who deny Christ came in the flesh.
those who 'went out from us because they were not of us'...
i think we must also reconcile the whole counsel of God, as in this passage in 1 Cor 12.
Now you are Christ’s body, and individually members of it. And God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers (v 27-28a)
however, you are free to believe as you wish
i don't wish to be argumentative. but let's not forget the preceding verses for context.
These things I have written to you concerning those who are trying to deceive you (v 26)
in verses 18-23 John is warning the believers about antichrists.... those who deny Christ came in the flesh.
those who 'went out from us because they were not of us'...
i think we must also reconcile the whole counsel of God, as in this passage in 1 Cor 12.
Now you are Christ’s body, and individually members of it. And God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers (v 27-28a)
however, you are free to believe as you wish
, so posted a portion of it....I am finding that while writing the Lord will bring to mind a verse and I look it up and keep going ooooooh because it is all so perfect, then before I know where I am, I have posted the whole chapter.Even so such is the power of God that a single verse can stand alone. That there are those who would seduce us is more or less the crux of what I was trying to put over, and whatever their motivation or the nature of the seduction, we all have to ensure we are not led astray by anything. So the Lord comforts us by saying that as born again people we have the Holy Spirit, Who is the source of the anointing that teaches us all things.
In other words, we can afford to trust Him Who is Trustworthy....even when the whole world is trying to bomb us off track, seemingly.
J
"Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing. For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil." (Hebrews 5:11-14)
Is it possible that some rely too heavily upon "teachers" because of their own dullness of hearing and spiritual immaturity when they ought to have already reached the stage where they themselves are "teachers"? It seems so to me.
Is it possible that some rely too heavily upon "teachers" because of their own dullness of hearing and spiritual immaturity when they ought to have already reached the stage where they themselves are "teachers"? It seems so to me.
That is a really good point. The last two sentences of the scripture you posted shows that in order to teach, you must have learned something practical about what is good and evil, and therefore have something to give, because of digging deep and being able to take the strong meat, out of necessity, out of experience.
I keep meeting people who seem to think that spiritual maturity comes automatically through the passing of years. But you can spend all your life under an unspiritual preacher and learn nothing about the necessity of having the trial of your faith, more precious than gold which perishes...
Great discussion! Thanks for your input.
I keep meeting people who seem to think that spiritual maturity comes automatically through the passing of years. But you can spend all your life under an unspiritual preacher and learn nothing about the necessity of having the trial of your faith, more precious than gold which perishes...
Great discussion! Thanks for your input.
More proof of your ignorance....
Thou therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus.
And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.
God uses men every day to give his word, make the sense known and give a reasonable application<--Ezra
Thou therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus.
And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.
God uses men every day to give his word, make the sense known and give a reasonable application<--Ezra
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