There Are Many Scriptures That Disprove The Trinity

[johnluke]

You forgot this little gem from Isaiah...

Isa 54.5

For your Makers (plural) are your husbands (plural); Yahweh of Hosts is His name; and your Redeemer is the Holy One of Israel; He is called the God of all the earth.

What version of the Bible are you quoting from. Also what version of the Bible do you quote expressing Ex. 3:1 ...mountain of the Gods...?

 

[johnluke]

Is God not omnipresent?

Just exactly what do you think omnipresent is?

 

[Bowman]

Mark 1 [10] And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him:
"like a dove" I think its metaphor.

Luke 3.22

και καταβηναι το πνευμα το αγιον σωματικω ειδει ως περιστεραν επ αυτον και φωνην εξ ουρανου γενεσθαι συ ει ο υιος μου ο αγαπητος εν σοι ευδοκησα



And the Holy Spirit came down in a bodily form as a dove upon Him. And there was a voice out of Heaven, saying, You are My Son, the Beloved; in You I have been delighting.


σωματικω is a dative neuter singular adjective describing the juxtaposed dative neuter singular noun, ειδει. These two terms are each only used this one time in the entire NT, and literally mean ‘corporeal visible form’.


The adverb ως describes the manner in which the Holy Spirit descended. In the case of Luke 3.22, Mark 1.10 & John 1.32, the rendering ‘as’…in Matt 3.16, the adverb ωσει, rendered ‘as’.


The juxtaposed accusative feminine singular noun, περιστεραν, completes the picture and informs the reader of the exact corporeal bodily form in which the Holy Spirit manifested.


Further confirming that the Holy Spirit manifested in the form of a dove is revealed to the reader in the Matt 3.16 account which declares that the dove was ‘lighting’ upon Him.

Thus, there is simply no escaping the fact that The Holy Spirit is declared to be seen manifest in the physical form of a dove.

This is the case in English and most assuredly in Greek.

 

[Bowman]

No scripture thwarts The Trinity...

Matthew 3:16-17 God the Father is in the sky speaking from within a cloud (1). At the same time Jesus is coming out of the River Jordan on the earth (+1). At the same time the Holy Spirit is in between God in the sky and Jesus on the earth (+1).
This is a rare picture of the 3 members of the Godhead all present and accounted for. Demonstrating in a crystal clear moment that they are not 3 Persons in 1 Being. They are 3 Persons in 3 Beings (1+1+1 = 3 Beings).

The only way even remotely make your worldview work is to completely turn your back on the remainder of scripture which completes the formula - in the same book no less!

Three persons; One being (Mat 28.19)

Don't run from it.

Embrace it.

If they are 3 Persons in 1 Being (1x1x1 = 1) that definition would mandate that all 3 Persons would have to be in 1 location at the same time, always. This scripture denies that relationship.

What rule of Biblical grammar mandates this lame assertion?

None.

 

[Bowman]

Your knowledge of scripture is pitiful....

It because of this exact example that I say that the Son of God (Jesus) can't be God. Jesus who is visible and is approachable cannot be God, if God is invisible and unapproachable.

Jesus is God on the merits of the established rules of Greek grammar, alone...completely independent of your world-view.....such that you are without excuse.

Jesus, who has a body of flesh and bone and spirit, cannot be God if God is only a spirit.

Whoever said that God is ONLY spirit?

Don't ever take me wrong on this Jesus and God discussion. Jesus is a Diety, he is a God in his own right, he is just not God the Father. God the Father is a separate and distinct Being than Jesus.

Whoever said that The Son was The Father, besides YOU?

For you to even mention this informs us of your jacked-up notion of what The Trinity even is.

You reject a strawman.

 

[homwardbound]

The Holy Spirit manifested as a Dove at Jesus' Baptism.

That was John was told and John is the one that saw as God told him when he saw the dove descend upon him, that would be the Christ and for him to witness this to the first chosen. God can do anything Bowman anything even as John said these stones into Jews, worshiping.
But God would rather we by free choice Choose to serve God, bot ever be forced to be a bond-servant


And regardless to this day here and now we no longer know him in the flesh, only in the Spirit as posted John 4:23-24

And today we are not Justified by anything other that:
1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
1 Corinthians 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God
2 Corinthians 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

 

[homwardbound]

One of the most impressive examples given of the Triadic Unity is that of the baptism of Jesus. The divine triad is represented by Jesus who came down from heaven now standing in the flesh as part of the material world, the Holy Spirit himself coming down out of heaven assuming a bodily for like that of a dove thus linking the two worlds (This is the only time the Holy Spirit has ever been described as assuming any type of physical form), and the voice of the Father from heaven declaring Jesus as the Son of God. This is indeed a unique event that has no parallel. In this event we find the ONLY time all three members of the Triadic Unity are present in a single manifestation. It never seems to have occurred before and has not occurred since.

Thank you for that insight, appreciated

 

[homwardbound]

Matthew 3:16-17 God the Father is in the sky speaking from within a cloud (1). At the same time Jesus is coming out of the River Jordan on the earth (+1). At the same time the Holy Spirit is in between God in the sky and Jesus on the earth (+1).
This is a rare picture of the 3 members of the Godhead all present and accounted for. Demonstrating in a crystal clear moment that they are not 3 Persons in 1 Being. They are 3 Persons in 3 Beings (1+1+1 = 3 Beings).

If they are 3 Persons in 1 Being (1x1x1 = 1) that definition would mandate that all 3 Persons would have to be in 1 location at the same time, always. This scripture denies that relationship.

If this Class A scripture is difficult for you to process, then any other scipture will not be recieved, so I will not spend the time to exegete the rest until we finish with this scripture.

Does water come in two other forms? Steam and ice? God the Father God the Son and God the Holy Spirit are like as water is in more than one form , yet all is still water
Sorry you do not see this as all 3 one, and one as all three, or do you see it both ways?

 

[homwardbound]

Re: Jesus is God.

It because of this exact example that I say that the Son of God (Jesus) can't be God. Jesus who is visible and is approachable cannot be God, if God is invisible and unapproachable.

Jesus, who has a body of flesh and bone and spirit, cannot be God if God is only a spirit.

Don't ever take me wrong on this Jesus and God discussion. Jesus is a Diety, he is a God in his own right, he is just not God the Father. God the Father is a separate and distinct Being than Jesus.

Yet Christ is the way, the truth and the new life, and no one gets to the Father but through the Son, and the two are one as he says in John
One way, one truth, one God revealed to us through Son. If you make them three God;s you allow for the enemy to come as an angel of light, and possibly fool the very elect, as has been doin g since Adam and Eve, trying to nullify truth
There are three manifestations of God from God who can only be worshiped in Spirit and truth here today after the cross it is done, we recieve the same Spirit of Christ that led Christ and we are made one with God the Father through Christ's work for us. By him we are redeemed as now see as one also.

 

[oldhermit]

Re: Jesus is God.

It because of this exact example that I say that the Son of God (Jesus) can't be God. Jesus who is visible and is approachable cannot be God, if God is invisible and unapproachable.

Jesus, who has a body of flesh and bone and spirit, cannot be God if God is only a spirit.

Don't ever take me wrong on this Jesus and God discussion. Jesus is a Diety, he is a God in his own right, he is just not God the Father. God the Father is a separate and distinct Being than Jesus.

This is nothing more than pantheism. There is not grammatical example one can point to in scripture that describes Jesus as 'A' god.

 

[johnluke]

Jesus was never using "I AM" to make a point the way trinitarians claim. The claim states that Jesus quoted Exo 3:14 where God said (in the Hebrew "I AM THAT I AM"). But they never deal with the reality that Jesus did not qulte the Hebrew, but the Greek, which has Moses asking God about his name so he will know what to tell Israel when they question him about "who sent you?" So he asks "What is your name?" "What shall I say unto them?"

In verse 14, God said to Moses "I AM THE BEING" using singular grammar. The significance of "singular" is that it tells us how many persons are involved with the word under consideration. He is therefore a singular-person being.

When he said I AM THE BEING he said "egw eimi 'o wn (phonetically "ego hiemi ho hone") tell them Ho Hone sent you." So God did not tell Moses his name is "I AM" He told him his name is "Ho Hone." Jesus did not quote this in John 8:58.

Is your point here that trinitarians use John 8:58 to prove that Jesus was Yahweh of the OT?

What is the English translation of "Ho Hone"?

Then why does trinitarian theology insist in a plurality of persons in a singular being, if upon the use of a singular being only one person is speaking?

Remember, I am not a trinitarian so I am not abliged to tie 3 Persons to the 1 God(consubstantiation) which can be difficult, if not impossible at times. They can not deal with singular as well as I can. I believe in 3 Persons, but all having their own separate being. I can see why at times one of the Godhead can be doing things separate from the other 2.

Isaiah tells us that Jehovah God is their Father who sends HIS Holy Spirit upon people. So Jehovah God the Father is the Holy spirit, and the Father to Israel.

That sounds a bit like Trinity doctrine. "Jehovah God the Father is the Holy Spirit". I believe that you are right that the Father does send the His Holy Spirit upon people. But the very act of "sending" His Holy Spirit, implies that that there are 2 entities, 1 that sends and stays behind, and 1 that is sent and goes forth from the sender.

I know it says "His" Holy Spirit. So 1 of 2 physical conditions must exist and they are:

"His" could mean that He sends His "own Holy Spirit" upon people. Does that mean He sends a part of "His own Spirit" to go from Him and dwell upon people?

or does "His" mean an entity that is His to command to do His will, separate from Him, but still "His" to command. So He sends "His" separate and distinct Person called Holy Spirit upon people?

Either way it implies a sender and something sent, which implies 2 entities of some sort. I just happern to believe in the latter. He commands and the Holy Spirit goes forth upon poeple.

All references you made to His Holy Spirit or the Spirit of the Lord falls under this consideration.

I happen to believe in a rather anthropomorphic Godhead and so that is why I have a hard time with your analogy of Jehovah Father also being His Holy Sprit.

That goes contrary to trinity doctrine who insist which insists there are three persons in one singular being. But it will serve to deal with the issue of singular-person-beings. It just disagrees with "orthodox theology." And it is still not scriptural.

Remember again, I do not believe in the 3 Persons in 1 Being. I believe in 3 Persons in 3 Beings, which is perfectly, and biblically orthodox.

I will comment on the last part later.

 

[johnluke]

Re: Jesus is God.

oldhermit;[/B]1427777]This is nothing more than pantheism. There is not grammatical example one can point to in scripture that describes Jesus as 'A' god.[/QUOTE

You can call it what you want. But I will tell you that this comment is exactly why about 170AD our Christian scholars and doctors started to argue about the make-up of the Godhead. Up to that date most Christians believed that Jesus was the Son of God, separate and distinct from God (see Justin Martyr, 1st apologist of the Church), mainly on the testimony of Stephen, the first Christian martyr. His testimony is, that he looked into the heavens and saw Jesus standing on the right hand of God. The Jews were so angry with him that he had spoken such blasphemy by promoting Jesus of Nazareth to Godhood and standing next to God that they killed him on the spot.

After 170 the Jews and pagans were pressing the Christians with slogans such as, you are not any better than the pagans who believe in more that one god (pantheism). You believe in God and His Son, and the Holy Spirit, how is that any different from Zues, and Apollos, and Jupiter. You see their argument even admits that the Christians believed in 3 separate and distinct Beings.

What the Christians did over the next 150 years leading to Nicea was to argue away the NT Godhead and created a
"one God with 3 Persons" God to compete with the Jews "one God" and do away with the pagan slogans of pantheism.

Pantheism is obviously not a true doctrine, it gives hundreds of gods of greater or lesser ranks access to humankind for pretty much what they want to do with humankind. No wonder this doctrine lost ground to the true religion brought to us by Jesus Christ, the Son of God.

However, part of the true religion is that there are 3 Beings involved in the creation and salvation of men, God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. These Beings make-up the Holy Godhead, not the holy pantheon. There are not hundreds of gods of various rank, but there are 3 Gods of equal majesty, power and authority all working in perfect harmony, mind, will, purpose, and actions as if they are actually 1 God.

In Hebrews 1:8-9 the God of Jesus acknowledges that His Son Jesus holds the rank of God. If God is God and Jesus, His Son is considered a God, and was annointed by his God, how many Gods do you have. The answer is 2 Gods. It is hard to argue against the God of Jesus. You can call them Persons if you think that eliminates pantheism, but remember there is no grammatical example one can point to in scripture that describes God the Father as a Person. To me it is rather a slap in the face for God to be considered just a Person.

So the way I look at it we both have to wrestle with definitions. You wrestle with pantheism for me and I wrestle with persons for you. I just believe that from the beginning, there have always been 3 separate and distinct Beings (Gods) that were involved in the creation and salvation of man. God the Son came to the earth and represented God the Father, who stayed in the heavens and continued to take care of the universe. After God the Son was resurrected and sat on the right hand of God the Father, they sent God the Holy Spirit to earth to continue to witness of the truth that Jesus in the Christ and is the Son of God the Father.

Both of us are witnesses that Jesus is the Christ and the savior of the world, do not let our differences reflect away that testimony.

 

[oldhermit]

Re: Jesus is God.

This is nothing more than pantheism. There is not grammatical example one can point to in scripture that describes Jesus as 'A' god.[/QUOTE

In Hebrews 1:8-9 the God of Jesus acknowledges that His Son Jesus holds the rank of God. If God is God and Jesus, His Son is considered a God, and was annointed by his God, how many Gods do you have. The answer is 2 Gods. It is hard to argue against the God of Jesus. You can call them Persons if you think that eliminates pantheism, but remember there is no grammatical example one can point to in scripture that describes God the Father as a Person. To me it is rather a slap in the face for God to be considered just a Person.

In Hebrews 1:8-9, The Father does not speak of Jesus as 'A' god but as GOD. This is vocative address. "YOUR THRONE, O GOD...." The fact that you are having trouble coming to grips with the nature of the Triadic Unity does not justify your representation of Jesus as a demigod.

 

[spectre]

sounds like apostolic or mormon,, would help to know which one

 

[johnluke]

Does water come in two other forms? Steam and ice? God the Father God the Son and God the Holy Spirit are like as water is in more than one form , yet all is still water
Sorry you do not see this as all 3 one, and one as all three, or do you see it both ways?

At the baptism of Jesus, if all 3 were all physically 1, then all would be in the 1 being of Jesus coming out of the Jordan river, there would be no one speaking from heaven and there would be no one half way between the cloud and Jesus. All 3 would be in 1 place.

This is how this scripture would read if God is 3 Persons in 1 Being:

And Jesus coming out of the water, looked into the heavens and lo a voice from Jesus's mouth said, this is my beloved Son in whom I am well please, hear ye him. And the Holy Ghost was in Jesus also. Is that what it says?

 

[johnluke]

Re: Jesus is God.

Yet Christ is the way, the truth and the new life, and no one gets to the Father but through the Son, and the two are one as he says in John
One way, one truth, one God revealed to us through Son. If you make them three God;s you allow for the enemy to come as an angel of light, and possibly fool the very elect, as has been doin g since Adam and Eve, trying to nullify truth
There are three manifestations of God from God who can only be worshiped in Spirit and truth here today after the cross it is done, we recieve the same Spirit of Christ that led Christ and we are made one with God the Father through Christ's work for us. By him we are redeemed as now see as one also.

When you become "one with God" through Christs's work are you going to be the 4th member of the Godhead or the Trinity?

Of course not! So being "one with God" must mean that we come into a perfect harmony, mind, will, purpose and actions with God and we by this harmony become "one with God". But we are still a separate and distinct being. This is the same "oneness" that Jesus enjoys with his God. They are not "one" physically, but they are "one" in perfect harmony. Thats why Jesus says, he does nothing except what the Father tells him to do. He loves righteousness and hates iniquity and is therefore "one" in harmonious actions with God.

You can do the same things as Jesus does and can also be "one" in harmonious actions with God. But you will never be "one" physically with God. You and Him will always be separated by space. When John said that Jesus and God are "one" he meant they were "one" in harmonious purpose. Jesus and God will always be separated by space, just like you and God.

 

[johnluke]

Re: Jesus is God.

In Hebrews 1:8-9, The Father does not speak of Jesus as 'A' god but as GOD. This is vocative address. "YOUR THRONE, O GOD...." The fact that you are having trouble coming to grips with the nature of the Triadic Unity does not justify your representation of Jesus as a demigod.

In Hebrews, does the God of Jesus call Jesus God?

 

[oldhermit]

Yes. The Father is addressing the The Son as God. It is vocative address.

 

[johnluke]

Yes. The Father is addressing the The Son as God. It is vocative address.

In Hebrews, vs 9 Did the God of Jesus annoint Jesus with the oil of gladness above his fellows?

 

[oldhermit]

In Hebrews, vs 9 Did the God of Jesus annoint Jesus with the oil of gladness above thy fellows?

Yes.......................