There Are Many Scriptures That Disprove The Trinity
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M
That mathematical paradigm requires Jesus to have said "Me the Father is greater than me the son." But that is not what Jesus said.
"My father is greater than I." makes 1and 1 + one; because the Father is the Holy spirit (1 and 1) and begat a son (+ One).
It was Jesus who said "I and the Father are one" but it was also Jesus who, speaking of the brethren, said "they are one as we are one" which eliminates any pretense of meaning a numerical one, but is speaking of one in agreement, in spirit, and in goal.
"My father is greater than I." makes 1and 1 + one; because the Father is the Holy spirit (1 and 1) and begat a son (+ One).
It was Jesus who said "I and the Father are one" but it was also Jesus who, speaking of the brethren, said "they are one as we are one" which eliminates any pretense of meaning a numerical one, but is speaking of one in agreement, in spirit, and in goal.
M
Because it was not the same operation to create Adam from red earth, and to form Eve from a rib. God created from nothing, and modified Adam, and reformed a rib to fashion and make a woman.
Genesis 1:27 So God *created man in his own image, in the image of God *created he him; male and female *created he them.[NOTE: (*) From GREEK evpoi,hsen Meaning: make, do, cause, effect, bring about, accomplish, perform, provide; create (of God);Hebrew 1254 {baw-raw'} Meaning:to create, shape, form]
Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God *formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.[NOTE: (*) From GREEK e;plasen = mold, form; create;Hebrew 3335 {yaw-tsar'} Meaning: 1) to form, fashion, frame]
Gen 2:22 And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, *made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.[NOTE: (*) From Greek wv|kodo,mhsen = to make, erect, build up; Hebrew 1129 {baw-naw'} Meaning: 1) to build, rebuild (build again), establish]
Have you seriously considered doing your own exegesis? Or do you always depend upon commentaries?
Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God *formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.[NOTE: (*) From GREEK e;plasen = mold, form; create;Hebrew 3335 {yaw-tsar'} Meaning: 1) to form, fashion, frame]
Gen 2:22 And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, *made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.[NOTE: (*) From Greek wv|kodo,mhsen = to make, erect, build up; Hebrew 1129 {baw-naw'} Meaning: 1) to build, rebuild (build again), establish]
Have you seriously considered doing your own exegesis? Or do you always depend upon commentaries?
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fisrt.. question for you, who is Jesus? was Jesus seen or unseen?
We are all in an arena, Christ is the center, and we all have a view at Christ, each from a different view point and see him. We see what ii is that we see and what we see is truth to us.
From my viewpoint I see 1x1x1 equals 1 and you see 1+1+1 = 3. I see this both ways, depending on whether I am seeing Spiritually or physically.
Christ is the embodiment of God the Father and Father is the Spirit, known as the Holy Spirit that came upon him at Baptism, showing us the connection that would be coming to us after the death, burial, resurrection and ascension of Christ and did starting at the day of Pentecost. Where they had to wait to tell of Christ and others to be saved by belief, only accomplished by the Holy Spirit living God's life through them, their flesh out of the way.
There is the body that we today are that body redeemed through Christ's body and are alive now in Spirit to Father as one with Father in Christ. We no longer know him in the flesh, seeing them as one in Spirit as we are those that are born again
You are viewing this from your angle, and from your angle you are right, as well as from my angle I am as well.
So down here on earth we see physically, in Heaven Spiritually, and we as people that think, go in and out of pasture, being led by flesh or the Spirit of God learning from God to walk by Spirit while in this flesh 100% and are thankful when we are buffeted to keep us humble never being perfect in and of self ever.
For God's grace is sufficient for us all. In ones weakness God's strength is made perfect. Therefore I glory in my weaknesses of this unredeemed flesh and trust in the Spirit of God (truth) where in this we are free to be
All in love to you God's type not man's
From my viewpoint I see 1x1x1 equals 1 and you see 1+1+1 = 3. I see this both ways, depending on whether I am seeing Spiritually or physically.
Christ is the embodiment of God the Father and Father is the Spirit, known as the Holy Spirit that came upon him at Baptism, showing us the connection that would be coming to us after the death, burial, resurrection and ascension of Christ and did starting at the day of Pentecost. Where they had to wait to tell of Christ and others to be saved by belief, only accomplished by the Holy Spirit living God's life through them, their flesh out of the way.
There is the body that we today are that body redeemed through Christ's body and are alive now in Spirit to Father as one with Father in Christ. We no longer know him in the flesh, seeing them as one in Spirit as we are those that are born again
You are viewing this from your angle, and from your angle you are right, as well as from my angle I am as well.
So down here on earth we see physically, in Heaven Spiritually, and we as people that think, go in and out of pasture, being led by flesh or the Spirit of God learning from God to walk by Spirit while in this flesh 100% and are thankful when we are buffeted to keep us humble never being perfect in and of self ever.
For God's grace is sufficient for us all. In ones weakness God's strength is made perfect. Therefore I glory in my weaknesses of this unredeemed flesh and trust in the Spirit of God (truth) where in this we are free to be
All in love to you God's type not man's
Holy Spirit was and to my knowledge has never been seen as a person, just as a person, has a body, soul and spirit one body and two other parts that make it whole and is what one is in need of is the Spirit to be alive in God through Christ
Anyway
John 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
The complete person to be whole, has three parts, Body Soul and Spirit
Jesus the Body, Holy Spirit the Soul, and God the Father Spirit, just what I see from the view I am sitting at in the arena where Christ is at in the center.
Anyway
John 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
The complete person to be whole, has three parts, Body Soul and Spirit
Jesus the Body, Holy Spirit the Soul, and God the Father Spirit, just what I see from the view I am sitting at in the arena where Christ is at in the center.
I'm not sure how much farther we can go with this discussion, but try one last thing. You say that knowing what the scripture says and and knowing what God is saying, can be two entirely different things. Give me 1 of your best scriptures and see if I can read and know what God is saying the same as you. I think we are not that far apart on most of the scriptures, so try this for me and lets see what happens. Thanks for trying.
Just using physical analogies to bring home Spiritual realities. If one can not understand the physical analogy, then one can not see the Spiritual reality in being brought into the kingdom as one with Father and Son, by belief in what Father did for us through Son it is finished for us to rest in God through Son, two yet one. Now receive the Holy Spirit of God and be led as Christ was led as one in Father and Son
T
Please, no discussion is offensive. I want to learn about how you believe in God. I want to tell you how I believe in God. Somehow, I suspect we will not agree on everything, put it is the peaceful discussion that is important. I believe the study of the relationship between God and man is the most important topic to study in the world, I enjoy all that surrounds it. So feel free to say what you know and there will not be offense to it.
I would like to tell you what I know about the very interesting name of Elohim.
1) Elohim is the plural of the name Eloi, or El, which Hebrew and Christian translators have translated into the word "God" or "Gods".
2) Elohim is the first name of God that we are introduced to in Genesis chapter 1. Elohim is the only God mentioned in Genesis chapter 1.
3) Elohim is a mysterious name that has referene to "the Mighty Ones", "Gods" or even "the counsil of the Gods". It also has reference to "judges, "majistrates", and "rulers". Elohim even said that Moses was to be Elohim to his people.
4) Hebrew scholars and doctors for centuries have wrestled with this name because in its plural form It seems to indicate that there was more than 1 God present at the creation. In fact it is a blasphemous problem that they had to explain away and so for centuries they have made up special plural noun rules and noun to verb rules and all sorts of grammar and philosophical metaphoric devises to get around the problem Moses created when he used a plural name for "God".
4) Genesis 1:26 confirms the name of Elohim is appropriate when it says "Let us..." and there are many verses in Genesis that refer to "us" that must be disturbing to "one God" proponents.
5) Hebrew scholars insist that Elohim was talking to angels during the creation. Trinitarian Christians counter by saying Elohim clearly reflects the 3 in 1 God. Hebrew scholars counter that by saying, does that mean Elohim was talking to Himself during the creation process and isn't that kind of nutty.
6) There is a second God introduced in Genesis chapter 2. The name of this God is Yahweh Elohim. In later chapter of Genesis and the OT the Elohim is dropped and only Yahweh is used. The translation of Yahweh Elohim into English is
"LORD God". Elohim is translated into English as "God".
7) Only Elohim in Genesis chapter 1 and both Elohim and Yahweh Elohim in chapter 2.
8) When Jesus was dying on the cross, he called out to his God and asked why his God had forsaken him. The name he used to address his God was "Eloi", the singular form of Elohim.
So here is what I think about all this.
I believe that Elohim being the first to be introduced is equivalent to "God the Father". I believe that His Son is The Lord Jesus Christ (his NT name) who is known in the OT as Yahweh Elohim (LORD God) and later just LORD.
It is God the Father (Elohim) and His Son The LORD Jesus (Yahweh) and the Holy Spirit that make up the Godhead and created the universe. Elohim gave us a first look or rough draft or spiritual creation in chapter 1 of Genesis, but it was Yahweh that did the physical forming and makeing of all that was created. So it was through Elohim and by Yahweh to all things were created.
Yahweh sat on the right side of the Elohim before the world in a spirit form. That spirit was then incarnated into the "only begotten" body that was generated by Elohim and Mary. Jesus was born, taught us the true gospel, and saved us from our sins when he died on the cross. After his resurrection, he went again to sit on the right hand of Elohim and is there today, awaiting the time of his second coming.
The reference of Jesus as Wisdom is a Christian mainstay. It is interesting that you picked up on the feminine/masculine issue. Here is my take on that. As the Hebrew scholars and doctors read the original manuscripts of the OT they became increasingly embarassed by the first advent of their Messiah. They could not reconcile the scriptures that prophecied that the Messiah would be the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords, subduing their rivals and ruling the earth with other scriptures that prophecied that their Messiah would be a lowly commoner, born in a manjor, crusified on a cross etc. and so over the centuries they systematically esponged scripture that describe the first advent Messiah.
Prophets like Isaiah had to start hiding phophecies of the lowly Messiah in order for them to not be removed.
The writer of Proverbs 8 in my opionion even got more poetic and instead of using the name of a masculine Jesus, he used the feminine name of Wisdom. This had its effect and was saved from scrutiny and we have a very rare picture of Jesus pre-existent with Elohim at the beginning of the creation, which is confirmed in the first 2 chapters of Genesis as Elohim and Yahweh go through the creative process together.
I will respond to other parts of your post later. Thanks again.
I would like to tell you what I know about the very interesting name of Elohim.
1) Elohim is the plural of the name Eloi, or El, which Hebrew and Christian translators have translated into the word "God" or "Gods".
2) Elohim is the first name of God that we are introduced to in Genesis chapter 1. Elohim is the only God mentioned in Genesis chapter 1.
3) Elohim is a mysterious name that has referene to "the Mighty Ones", "Gods" or even "the counsil of the Gods". It also has reference to "judges, "majistrates", and "rulers". Elohim even said that Moses was to be Elohim to his people.
4) Hebrew scholars and doctors for centuries have wrestled with this name because in its plural form It seems to indicate that there was more than 1 God present at the creation. In fact it is a blasphemous problem that they had to explain away and so for centuries they have made up special plural noun rules and noun to verb rules and all sorts of grammar and philosophical metaphoric devises to get around the problem Moses created when he used a plural name for "God".
4) Genesis 1:26 confirms the name of Elohim is appropriate when it says "Let us..." and there are many verses in Genesis that refer to "us" that must be disturbing to "one God" proponents.
5) Hebrew scholars insist that Elohim was talking to angels during the creation. Trinitarian Christians counter by saying Elohim clearly reflects the 3 in 1 God. Hebrew scholars counter that by saying, does that mean Elohim was talking to Himself during the creation process and isn't that kind of nutty.
6) There is a second God introduced in Genesis chapter 2. The name of this God is Yahweh Elohim. In later chapter of Genesis and the OT the Elohim is dropped and only Yahweh is used. The translation of Yahweh Elohim into English is
"LORD God". Elohim is translated into English as "God".
7) Only Elohim in Genesis chapter 1 and both Elohim and Yahweh Elohim in chapter 2.
8) When Jesus was dying on the cross, he called out to his God and asked why his God had forsaken him. The name he used to address his God was "Eloi", the singular form of Elohim.
So here is what I think about all this.
I believe that Elohim being the first to be introduced is equivalent to "God the Father". I believe that His Son is The Lord Jesus Christ (his NT name) who is known in the OT as Yahweh Elohim (LORD God) and later just LORD.
It is God the Father (Elohim) and His Son The LORD Jesus (Yahweh) and the Holy Spirit that make up the Godhead and created the universe. Elohim gave us a first look or rough draft or spiritual creation in chapter 1 of Genesis, but it was Yahweh that did the physical forming and makeing of all that was created. So it was through Elohim and by Yahweh to all things were created.
Yahweh sat on the right side of the Elohim before the world in a spirit form. That spirit was then incarnated into the "only begotten" body that was generated by Elohim and Mary. Jesus was born, taught us the true gospel, and saved us from our sins when he died on the cross. After his resurrection, he went again to sit on the right hand of Elohim and is there today, awaiting the time of his second coming.
The reference of Jesus as Wisdom is a Christian mainstay. It is interesting that you picked up on the feminine/masculine issue. Here is my take on that. As the Hebrew scholars and doctors read the original manuscripts of the OT they became increasingly embarassed by the first advent of their Messiah. They could not reconcile the scriptures that prophecied that the Messiah would be the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords, subduing their rivals and ruling the earth with other scriptures that prophecied that their Messiah would be a lowly commoner, born in a manjor, crusified on a cross etc. and so over the centuries they systematically esponged scripture that describe the first advent Messiah.
Prophets like Isaiah had to start hiding phophecies of the lowly Messiah in order for them to not be removed.
The writer of Proverbs 8 in my opionion even got more poetic and instead of using the name of a masculine Jesus, he used the feminine name of Wisdom. This had its effect and was saved from scrutiny and we have a very rare picture of Jesus pre-existent with Elohim at the beginning of the creation, which is confirmed in the first 2 chapters of Genesis as Elohim and Yahweh go through the creative process together.
I will respond to other parts of your post later. Thanks again.
I don't think it's a metaphor as well as I don't think that there was a random dove flying over the head of Jesus Christ at His baptism. Saint John the Baptiser saw the Holy Spirit that appeared "like a dove". Also, at the pentecost, the Holy Spirit descends over the heads of the apostoles in form of "tongues like of fire". Again, this is not a metaphor, it's a mystery that has been rended with a comparison so that we can understand that it was not an earthly fire, but a divine fire and the best way to explain it was by reffering to something that the human mind knows.
One of the most impressive examples given of the Triadic Unity is that of the baptism of Jesus. The divine triad is represented by Jesus who came down from heaven now standing in the flesh as part of the material world, the Holy Spirit himself coming down out of heaven assuming a bodily for like that of a dove thus linking the two worlds (This is the only time the Holy Spirit has ever been described as assuming any type of physical form), and the voice of the Father from heaven declaring Jesus as the Son of God. This is indeed a unique event that has no parallel. In this event we find the ONLY time all three members of the Triadic Unity are present in a single manifestation. It never seems to have occurred before and has not occurred since.
Matthew 3:16-17 God the Father is in the sky speaking from within a cloud (1). At the same time Jesus is coming out of the River Jordan on the earth (+1). At the same time the Holy Spirit is in between God in the sky and Jesus on the earth (+1).
This is a rare picture of the 3 members of the Godhead all present and accounted for. Demonstrating in a crystal clear moment that they are not 3 Persons in 1 Being. They are 3 Persons in 3 Beings (1+1+1 = 3 Beings).
If they are 3 Persons in 1 Being (1x1x1 = 1) that definition would mandate that all 3 Persons would have to be in 1 location at the same time, always. This scripture denies that relationship.
If this Class A scripture is difficult for you to process, then any other scipture will not be recieved, so I will not spend the time to exegete the rest until we finish with this scripture.
This is a rare picture of the 3 members of the Godhead all present and accounted for. Demonstrating in a crystal clear moment that they are not 3 Persons in 1 Being. They are 3 Persons in 3 Beings (1+1+1 = 3 Beings).
If they are 3 Persons in 1 Being (1x1x1 = 1) that definition would mandate that all 3 Persons would have to be in 1 location at the same time, always. This scripture denies that relationship.
If this Class A scripture is difficult for you to process, then any other scipture will not be recieved, so I will not spend the time to exegete the rest until we finish with this scripture.
Re: Jesus is God.
It because of this exact example that I say that the Son of God (Jesus) can't be God. Jesus who is visible and is approachable cannot be God, if God is invisible and unapproachable.
Jesus, who has a body of flesh and bone and spirit, cannot be God if God is only a spirit.
Don't ever take me wrong on this Jesus and God discussion. Jesus is a Diety, he is a God in his own right, he is just not God the Father. God the Father is a separate and distinct Being than Jesus.
It because of this exact example that I say that the Son of God (Jesus) can't be God. Jesus who is visible and is approachable cannot be God, if God is invisible and unapproachable.
Jesus, who has a body of flesh and bone and spirit, cannot be God if God is only a spirit.
Don't ever take me wrong on this Jesus and God discussion. Jesus is a Diety, he is a God in his own right, he is just not God the Father. God the Father is a separate and distinct Being than Jesus.