Total Depravity vs. Freewill

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tribesman

tribesman

Senior Member
#501
Oct 13, 2011
4,612
274
83
#501
Abiding said:
cant see how it would make a bit of difference if God saves you...then gives you faith...then makes you believe.
and no choice enters the pic.
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Eph.2 says we were dead in trespasses and sins. Then God quickened, or raised us up, from the dead. He gave us new life. What followed was trust. And it was all God's doing, not of ourselves. Underline that. First life, then fruit. It is all God's doing. His gift to the lifeless and hopeless. Those who had no ability whatsoever to respond to His holy call.

By grace ... through faith. Faith is the instrument whereby we receive the gift. NOT a condition to receive same.

Eph.2

[1] And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
[2] Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
[3] Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
[4] But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
[5] Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, ( by grace ye are saved; )
[6] And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
[7] That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
[8] For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
[9] Not of works, lest any man should boast.
[10] For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
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A

Abiding

Guest
#502
#502
On a positive note i do not believe the 5 points to be a cloak for sin. Ha
:cool:
 
A

Abiding

Guest
#503
#503
tribesman said:
Eph.2 says we were dead in trespasses and sins. Then God quickened, or raised us up, from the dead. He gave us new life. What followed was trust. And it was all God's doing, not of ourselves. Underline that. First life, then fruit. It is all God's doing. His gift to the lifeless and hopeless. Those who had no ability whatsoever to respond to His holy call.

By grace ... through faith. Faith is the instrument whereby we receive the gift. NOT a condition to receive same.
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I totally agree.:) but im still stuck on the fact we have to receive it and repent with Gods enablement.
And i think some can reject that. Wrong or right its the many scriptures that say that that im hung on.
 
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Abiding

Guest
#506
#506
tribesman said:
No, you don't, even I wished you did. Be honest. You say faith is a condition that must be fulfilled in man before God can save him.
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Well i spose thats what im saying. But its not just my attitude or wish for it to be that way.
Seems to me God made that condition. And its all over the bible.
 
A

Abiding

Guest
#507
#507
tribesman said:
And noone but the anti-calvinists suggested they were. :eek:
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I know i wish there was a special hunting season for them:p

wait!!!! im not a calvinists and i see through that nonsense.
 
A

Abiding

Guest
#510
#510
ty for the dialogue:cool:
 
A

Abiding

Guest
#511
#511
well sorta ha id have to go add it up.
i may make it to heaven if i raise those numbers huh?:p
 
Bookends

Bookends

Senior Member
#512
Aug 28, 2012
4,225
99
48
#512
tribesman said:
Settled then. You do believe in salvation conditioned on the sinner.

Then Abraham could boast about being smart enough to "choose the right".

Btw, didn't all men without exception get the same "offer" as Abraham? He just simply outsmarted (most of) the rest.

PS. The deeper issue is of course what caused Abraham to believe.
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Couldn't you boast that God chose you over an unbeliever? I'm not saying you would do such a thing.
 
Bookends

Bookends

Senior Member
#513
Aug 28, 2012
4,225
99
48
#513
tribesman said:
How come you leave out the next verse:


How do you reconcile verse 12-13? By ignoring verse 13?
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That's easy, IMO God isn't talking about individual salvation and how it happens, He talking about the body, the OT and NT Church as a whole, it was always God's plan to have a remnant to redeem.
 
zone

zone

Senior Member
#516
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#516
[video=youtube;xg3_f0U5dLk]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xg3_f0U5dLk[/video]
 
tribesman

tribesman

Senior Member
#518
Oct 13, 2011
4,612
274
83
#518
Bookends said:
Couldn't you boast that God chose you over an unbeliever? I'm not saying you would do such a thing.
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One cannot boast of something someone else did (Rom.3:27). Paradoxically as it seems, while scripture indicates that boasting is something that the proud does (including the self- and works righteousness advocates who boast in the law, yet are oblivious that they do not keep the law - Rom.2:23) there is nevertheless a godly boasting, so to speak. It always boasts of God, never of self.

Ps.34

[2] My soul shall make her boast in the LORD: the humble shall hear thereof, and be glad.

Ps.44

[8] In God we boast all the day long, and praise thy name for ever. Selah.
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Paul said that if he would "glory" (some translations have "boast" - see also 2Cor.10:17) in anything, then it would be in the cross of Christ:

Gal.6

[14] But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world. (KJV)

Gal.6

[14] But may it never be that I would boast, except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. (NASB)
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With this I concur.
 
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A

Abiding

Guest
#519
#519
I listened to James White shred Roger Olsons book for a couple hours.
Helped me see a bigger picture than id never have gotten from reading
the bible alone. Prolly due to my simple mind.:p
 
tribesman

tribesman

Senior Member
#520
Oct 13, 2011
4,612
274
83
#520
Haven't heard that particular debate, but can say in general that literalism or "read as it is written" even at is uttermost efforts usually end at some point with error or worse when it becomes clear that one has to make a distinction between what is "spiritual" and "physical", at the least. Then the hard work of plausible interpretation comes in and fundamentalists all sorts have huge problems here with historical facts, church history, tradition and hermeneutics. Just to name a few examples there are too many who think that the Bible can be read without any assumptions or that everything in the Bible indicates universal address.
 
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