Total Depravity vs. Freewill

[GreenNnice]

God gives us faith but we still have to have faith in what God gave us.

Does Scripture back this dual condition for being saved?

Far from TOTAL DEPAVITY, isn't it ?

 

[tribesman]

...we receive this righteousness by faith only; not indeed as if faith were another ground for our justification, and not indeed as if faith were a condition which, on our part, we must fulfill in order to be justified, but simply as the means whereby we are engrafted into Christ, and therefore become partakers of all His benefits, also of the benefit of justification...justification implies an eternal righteousness, a righteousness that can never be lost and that gives us the right to eternal life.

- Herman Hoeksema

 

[loveme1]

May I ask?

Do you strive each and every day to obey all of Christ's literal comands in the Gospels?

If you do not(I will wait for your response on this) would you feel comfortable asking others/teaching them to do that which you did not do yourself?

Or do you believe certain of Christ's literal commands are to be striven to be kept but others are not important.

If you believe the latter, could you tell me which of Christ's literal commands should be followed and which are unimportant to follow

Thankyou, only I seek to understand exactly where you are coming from here.

The Messiah teaches us much and the Holy Spirit is our guide and comforter to ask if i would pick and choose and state which is or is not important is not something i have authority or desire authority to state.

This comes to mind:

Matthew 22

34But when the Pharisees had heard that he had put the Sadducees to silence, they were gathered together. 35Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying, 36Master, which is the great commandment in the law? 37Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38This is the first and great commandment. 39And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Luke 10

[SUP]29 [/SUP]But he wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?”
[SUP]30 [/SUP]In reply Jesus said: “A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he was attacked by robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. [SUP]31 [/SUP]A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side. [SUP]32 [/SUP]So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. [SUP]33 [/SUP]But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him. [SUP]34 [/SUP]He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, brought him to an inn and took care of him. [SUP]35 [/SUP]The next day he took out two denarii[SUP][c][/SUP] and gave them to the innkeeper. ‘Look after him,’ he said, ‘and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.’
[SUP]36 [/SUP]“Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?”
[SUP]37 [/SUP]The expert in the law replied, “The one who had mercy on him.”
Jesus told him, “Go and do likewise.”

There is no boundary on who we call neighbour...

Ezekiel 11

[SUP]16 [/SUP]Therefore say, Thus saith the Lord God; Although I have cast them far off among the heathen, and although I have scattered them among the countries, yet will I be to them as a little sanctuary in the countries where they shall come.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Therefore say, Thus saith the Lord God; I will even gather you from the people, and assemble you out of the countries where ye have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]And they shall come thither, and they shall take away all the detestable things thereof and all the abominations thereof from thence.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:
[SUP]20 [/SUP]That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.

Back to what prompted our conversation i stand by what i said to you to begin with, and that is line upon line.

Repentance.

Ezekiel 18

18 The word of the Lord came unto me again, saying,
[SUP]2 [/SUP]What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge?
[SUP]3 [/SUP]As I live, saith the Lord God, ye shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]But if a man be just, and do that which is lawful and right,
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And hath not eaten upon the mountains, neither hath lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, neither hath defiled his neighbour's wife, neither hath come near to a menstruous woman,
[SUP]7 [/SUP]And hath not oppressed any, but hath restored to the debtor his pledge, hath spoiled none by violence, hath given his bread to the hungry, and hath covered the naked with a garment;
[SUP]8 [/SUP]He that hath not given forth upon usury, neither hath taken any increase, that hath withdrawn his hand from iniquity, hath executed true judgment between man and man,
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Hath walked in my statutes, and hath kept my judgments, to deal truly; he is just, he shall surely live, saith the Lord God.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]If he beget a son that is a robber, a shedder of blood, and that doeth the like to any one of these things,
[SUP]11 [/SUP]And that doeth not any of those duties, but even hath eaten upon the mountains, and defiled his neighbour's wife,
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Hath oppressed the poor and needy, hath spoiled by violence, hath not restored the pledge, and hath lifted up his eyes to the idols, hath committed abomination,
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Hath given forth upon usury, and hath taken increase: shall he then live? he shall not live: he hath done all these abominations; he shall surely die; his blood shall be upon him.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]Now, lo, if he beget a son, that seeth all his father's sins which he hath done, and considereth, and doeth not such like,
[SUP]15 [/SUP]That hath not eaten upon the mountains, neither hath lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, hath not defiled his neighbour's wife,
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Neither hath oppressed any, hath not withholden the pledge, neither hath spoiled by violence, but hath given his bread to the hungry, and hath covered the naked with a garment,
[SUP]17 [/SUP]That hath taken off his hand from the poor, that hath not received usury nor increase, hath executed my judgments, hath walked in my statutes; he shall not die for the iniquity of his father, he shall surely live.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]As for his father, because he cruelly oppressed, spoiled his brother by violence, and did that which is not good among his people, lo, even he shall die in his iniquity.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord God: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?
[SUP]24 [/SUP]But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?
[SUP]26 [/SUP]When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.
[SUP]27 [/SUP]Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.
[SUP]28 [/SUP]Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
[SUP]29 [/SUP]Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the Lord is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal?
[SUP]30 [/SUP]Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord God. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.
[SUP]31 [/SUP]Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
[SUP]32 [/SUP]For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord God: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

above the charitable heart is being taught and below.

Matthew 25

[SUP]34 [/SUP]Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
[SUP]35 [/SUP]For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
[SUP]36 [/SUP]Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.






[SUP]
37 [/SUP]Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
[SUP]38 [/SUP]When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
[SUP]39 [/SUP]Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
[SUP]40 [/SUP]And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
[SUP]41 [/SUP]Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
[SUP]42 [/SUP]For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
[SUP]43 [/SUP]I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
[SUP]44 [/SUP]Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
[SUP]45 [/SUP]Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
[SUP]46 [/SUP]And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal

 

[Abiding]

Haven't heard that particular debate, but can say in general that literalism or "read as it is written" even at is uttermost efforts usually end at some point with error or worse when it becomes clear that one has to make a distinction between what is "spiritual" and "physical", at the least. Then the hard work of plausible interpretation comes in and fundamentalists all sorts have huge problems here with historical facts, church history, tradition and hermeneutics. Just to name a few examples there are too many who think that the Bible can be read without any assumptions or that everything in the Bible indicates universal address.

Well as you probably guessed im pretty new at this, you probably got me
started to look into something i purposely avoided.
So ill mingle over in the monergism side a bit.

Its hard for me to deal with answers until i have
the questions. And this plunge showed me some questions
i never had...thinking i already had good answers to..like
you said literalism. But not purposely.

 

[GreenNnice]

God gives us faith but we still have to have faith in what God gave us.

Does Scripture back this dual condition for being saved?

Far from TOTAL DEPAVITY, isn't it ?

ok, so you have your own opinion on 'faith' as what happens from God but from us too, who must have faith?

God gives us our faith.
We are to have faith in the faith that God gives.

The Lord leads.

 

[mark54]

The Messiah teaches us much and the Holy Spirit is our guide and comforter to ask if i would pick and choose and state which is or is not important is not something i have authority or desire authority to state.

This comes to mind:

Matthew 22



Luke 10



There is no boundary on who we call neighbour...

Ezekiel 11



Back to what prompted our conversation i stand by what i said to you to begin with, and that is line upon line.

Repentance.

Ezekiel 18



above the charitable heart is being taught and below.

Matthew 25

You didn't answer my question

I assume therefore that you do not strive to obey each and every literal command of Christ.
So when you say we must teach and obey the teachings/commands of Christ, you are not meaning we should strive to obey them all

 

[RickShafer]

God gives us faith but we still have to have faith in what God gave us.

Does Scripture back this dual condition for being saved?

Far from TOTAL DEPRAVITY, isn't it ?

Total depravity is a theological term that means the inherent state of being less than perfect, and unable to become righteous by our own power.
- It doesn't mean being heinously evil, as in a serial killer or Stalin or Hitler.

 

[mark54]

The Messiah teaches us much and the Holy Spirit is our guide and comforter to ask if i would pick and choose and state which is or is not important is not something i have authority or desire authority to state.

This is the way I see it. Christ's teachings had a central theme:
Love God, love your neighbour, and Christ in his teachings constantly gave examples of this.
So I would say we can sum up His teachings in those two central commands.

John told us to obey God's commands, and then he said:

This is His command. To believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ and to love one another.

But I think Paul; sums it up best:

Carry each others burdens and so fulfill th law of Christ
Gal6:2

I'm going to be honest here. The Holy Spirit lives in us, and he has given us a heart of flesh, a heart that loves God and wants to please him. Because He lives in us, I know we are not required to look to each and every literal commandment/law and strive to obey them. For he has given us the desire to obey from the heart, not the letter.

But as Jesus said:

No one after drinking the old wine wants the new, for he says
'The old is better'
Luke5:39

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Haven't heard that particular debate, but can say in general that literalism or "read as it is written" even at is uttermost efforts usually end at some point with error or worse when it becomes clear that one has to make a distinction between what is "spiritual" and "physical", at the least. Then the hard work of plausible interpretation comes in and fundamentalists all sorts have huge problems here with historical facts, church history, tradition and hermeneutics. Just to name a few examples there are too many who think that the Bible can be read without any assumptions or that everything in the Bible indicates universal address.

To be honest. I think all of us read the bible with certain assumptions in hand.. Thats why there are so many views.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Well as you probably guessed im pretty new at this, you probably got me
started to look into something i purposely avoided.
So ill mingle over in the monergism side a bit.

Its hard for me to deal with answers until i have
the questions. And this plunge showed me some questions
i never had...thinking i already had good answers to..like
you said literalism. But not purposely.

be careful there. When we ook at things like this, we risk falling into the ame trap as many. Like raultoe saying we love sin because he is trained in what to believe. Stick to the word, and ask god for help, and you will find truth.

 

[tribesman]

Well as you probably guessed im pretty new at this, you probably got me
started to look into something i purposely avoided.
So ill mingle over in the monergism side a bit.

Its hard for me to deal with answers until i have
the questions. And this plunge showed me some questions
i never had...thinking i already had good answers to..like
you said literalism. But not purposely.

How come you purposely avoided these things?

 

[zone]

I listened to James White shred Roger Olsons book for a couple hours.
Helped me see a bigger picture than id never have gotten from reading
the bible alone. Prolly due to my simple mind.

i listened to this last night.
it confirmed everything i heard from Roger Olson in the Horton & Olson debate.
everything from the repeated requests to Arminians to explain how they STILL have God going ahead with creation even after He saw this and that.....all the His being at our freewill beck and call.....right up to the bordering on universalism thing i was sensing.

thanks for those vids Abiding
they are over at Monergism.com

 

[jimmydiggs]

i listened to this last night.
it confirmed everything i heard from Roger Olson in the Horton & Olson debate.
everything from the repeated requests to Arminians to explain how they STILL have God going ahead with creation even after He saw this and that.....all the His being at our freewill beck and call.....right up to the bordering on universalism thing i was sensing.

thanks for those vids Abiding
they are over at Monergism.com

Which page were they posted on? I love James White. The man sure knows how to study!

 

[Abiding]

Which page were they posted on? I love James White. The man sure knows how to study!

James White’s Review of Roger Olsen’s Book “Against Calvinism”

 

[Abiding]

How come you purposely avoided these things?

Well unlike you said, that it takes more bible reading. I dont think people
would get tulip from the bible. It comes from studying others work. It comes
from imposing questions on the bible.

Plus calvinists always rubbed me the wrong way.

But then whiney pencil necked arminians do too so.....

 

[Abiding]

be careful there. When we ook at things like this, we risk falling into the ame trap as many. Like raultoe saying we love sin because he is trained in what to believe. Stick to the word, and ask god for help, and you will find truth.

ty I pray also, that i dont play into just a system. I have certain concerns going into it.
Ive seen just too many arrogant nonboasters

 

[eternally-gratefull]

ty I pray also, that i dont play into just a system. I have certain concerns going into it.
Ive seen just too many arrogant nonboasters

So true!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Well unlike you said, that it takes more bible reading. I dont think people
would get tulip from the bible. It comes from studying others work. It comes
from imposing questions on the bible.

Plus calvinists always rubbed me the wrong way.

But then whiney pencil necked arminians do too so.....

lol. Thats what happens when people stick to a system.. and don;t just take the word at face value. It is not about calvins vs arminians.. It is about belief systems. When we try to protect our system, we risk running making serious accusations not based on fact, but on religion.

 

[zone]

Which page were they posted on? I love James White. The man sure knows how to study!

here it is at Monergism also diggs:

James White's review of Roger Olson's book "Against Calvinism" (Parts 1 and 2) (Monergism MP3) < click

i guess i fell asleep before the end of part 2 last nite cuz today when i listened there was a phone call from a dispy guy..oopsie.

 

[zone]

nope...synergism do not verk.
no how.