True love is the mark of a real Believer.
- Thread starter Jason0047
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Jason, first of all do you actually think I mean a real whip? Serious!
Second....God said to BEAT your child with a rod (by the hand of Solomon) to spare his soul from hell and to not spare the rod because of their crying and if you spare the rod you hate your child.....what do you think God meant by those statements?
Proverbs 13:24, 22:15, 23:13-14
For some reason you always have problems reading in what I had written. The problem is that you skate past what I actually had written and you just assume the worst. I said.... quote,
"I am assuming that is not what you meant."
Many folks can make a wrong theology on just a few small verses. It's very easy to do. But the whole of Scripture should be looked at when making one's decision, though. As you might have guessed, I do not hold to your interpretive view on those passages. I don't believe you are prayerfully looking deep enough at what they are saying. If you interested in my view on those passages, I hold to the second interpretative view on these verses at this article posted here:
What exactly is the rod mentioned in Proverbs
"I am assuming that is not what you meant."
Many folks can make a wrong theology on just a few small verses. It's very easy to do. But the whole of Scripture should be looked at when making one's decision, though. As you might have guessed, I do not hold to your interpretive view on those passages. I don't believe you are prayerfully looking deep enough at what they are saying. If you interested in my view on those passages, I hold to the second interpretative view on these verses at this article posted here:
What exactly is the rod mentioned in Proverbs
Last edited:
I say this because.... well... kids do die every year from being beaten so as to correct them.
Yet, Proverbs says they will not die.
So clearly this is not talking about a real physical rod whereby parents could potentially kill them or accidently harm them. So we know that the "rod" here is speaking metaphorically as in verbal correction yet.... with love.
For if you beat a dog every time it poops on the carpet or barks at cars, your dog is going to be afraid of you.
Think about it.
Yet, Proverbs says they will not die.
So clearly this is not talking about a real physical rod whereby parents could potentially kill them or accidently harm them. So we know that the "rod" here is speaking metaphorically as in verbal correction yet.... with love.
For if you beat a dog every time it poops on the carpet or barks at cars, your dog is going to be afraid of you.
Think about it.
I mean... what makes more sense?
Beating your child senseless? Or talking to him or her in love and telling him that such things are wrong? Do you think a child is going to look back at his Dad or Mom and thank them for being beaten? Unless they enjoy punishment or pain, I say thee nay. No way.
Talk to parents and children who have grown up on both sides of this viewpoint. I bet you that more children (who have grown up now) and who had parents who used a metaphorical rod think of their parents as more loving then those who have beaten them physically when they were young.
Beating your child senseless? Or talking to him or her in love and telling him that such things are wrong? Do you think a child is going to look back at his Dad or Mom and thank them for being beaten? Unless they enjoy punishment or pain, I say thee nay. No way.
Talk to parents and children who have grown up on both sides of this viewpoint. I bet you that more children (who have grown up now) and who had parents who used a metaphorical rod think of their parents as more loving then those who have beaten them physically when they were young.
Last edited:
[h=1]Matthew 22:36-40King James Version (KJV)[/h]36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
If you want a parental example I can share my experience. One child was hyper active, got so wrapped up in what they were doing, that physical intervention was needed. You had to read their mood, and act if necessary. Sometimes when they did something wrong, biting, turning on the gas cooker, not listening to mum or dad, a smack was the only way to get their attention. I never thought I would have to do this, but nothing else seemed to work, being nice did not cut it.
I had to put in emotional boundaries and reflect back the same emotion that came out, not because I really felt it, but so they knew what it felt like, and they got a reaction. It took 6 years+ to help them control their own issues.
Alongside this if they were hurt, or needed support, we were there straight away, no doubt, day or night.
Now the other two, were much more sensitive, and just getting annoyed was enough to get a response. It was so odd to have two different strategies with the children at the same time. The sensitive ones found it hard to understand why we had to use a different strategy on their sibling, but we did.
Later in life the smack turned into withdrawal of something they really really liked, for a specific time. I was told in no uncertain terms they hated this, because it lasted a longer time and they could do nothing to stop it, once the situation had been set up.
On the positive side it was seeing what they really enjoyed and encouraging them to pursue it with all their strength. It was not projecting our opinions or desires on to them, but listening and helping from our experience to find the things that made a difference. I cannot tell you how much this mattered to them.
Love works, it really matters, it makes life possible.
I had to put in emotional boundaries and reflect back the same emotion that came out, not because I really felt it, but so they knew what it felt like, and they got a reaction. It took 6 years+ to help them control their own issues.
Alongside this if they were hurt, or needed support, we were there straight away, no doubt, day or night.
Now the other two, were much more sensitive, and just getting annoyed was enough to get a response. It was so odd to have two different strategies with the children at the same time. The sensitive ones found it hard to understand why we had to use a different strategy on their sibling, but we did.
Later in life the smack turned into withdrawal of something they really really liked, for a specific time. I was told in no uncertain terms they hated this, because it lasted a longer time and they could do nothing to stop it, once the situation had been set up.
On the positive side it was seeing what they really enjoyed and encouraging them to pursue it with all their strength. It was not projecting our opinions or desires on to them, but listening and helping from our experience to find the things that made a difference. I cannot tell you how much this mattered to them.
Love works, it really matters, it makes life possible.
A 2013 study by Elizabeth Gershoff and her team (cited in the article link) reviewed the previous two decades of research and confirmed that children who are spanked are more likely to exhibit depression, anxiety, drug use, and aggression as they get older. Children who have suffered more severe corporal punishment have been shown to have less gray matter in their frontal cortex, and to have amygdalas that are more hyper-vigilant. The only positive outcome that's ever been shown from spanking is immediate compliance; however, corporal punishment is associated with less long-term compliance. Corporal punishment has repeatedly been linked with nine other negative outcomes, including increased rates of aggression, delinquency, mental health problems, and problems in relationships with their parents.
Large, peer-reviewed studies repeatedly show that the more children are hit, the more likely they are to hit others, including peers and siblings. As adults, they are more likely to hit their spouses. The more parents spank children for antisocial behavior, the more the antisocial behavior increases. All of the peer reviewed studies being published continue to confirm these findings.
Source:
Should You Spank Your Child?
Large, peer-reviewed studies repeatedly show that the more children are hit, the more likely they are to hit others, including peers and siblings. As adults, they are more likely to hit their spouses. The more parents spank children for antisocial behavior, the more the antisocial behavior increases. All of the peer reviewed studies being published continue to confirm these findings.
Source:
Should You Spank Your Child?
What is interesting in this area, is what I found, not that a smack was used as corporal punishment, but as merely a way to get attention. I do not think smacking should ever progress to spanking, or extreme violence.
The reality is though, parents are simply those who set the limits, and one smack often resolves a conflict situation.
I also think it only has relevence between 2 and 6 years old, where other means have failed.
The problem with the research you quote is it is about abuse and domination, which is not a good idea, and obviously has bad consequences.
I also know from personal experience, a smack can be preferable to exploiting other fears etc children may have.
One of my children told me with absolute certainty they would never smack a child.
Another was faced with a child who kicked, spat and threw their shoes at her, and as she said, if the child was hers, there is no way it would not have been smacked.
So to all those who are not involved in a moment of rage from children, you know there side can be very violent and problematic, it is obvious were this is going to end with a much stronger and stressed parent no matter what best intentions there are in play.
When one of my children was 2 about I was carrying them upstairs and they decided to bit me in the shoulder. The pain and reaction to drop the child was immense. But my love was to care and not hurt the child but slowly put them down and find out what was going on. They did not know and were very frightened. I just reassured them and emphasised this was not a good idea, especially if I had dropped them etc.
What I am trying to get across, is in a loving relationship there is a power play that really matters, and you need to know on your side you are in control and know why and what you doing. If at all possible all other tactics other than smacking should be used, but sometimes it appears to be the only option. Funnily for those who say I am so wrong, it is actually biblical.
The reality is though, parents are simply those who set the limits, and one smack often resolves a conflict situation.
I also think it only has relevence between 2 and 6 years old, where other means have failed.
The problem with the research you quote is it is about abuse and domination, which is not a good idea, and obviously has bad consequences.
I also know from personal experience, a smack can be preferable to exploiting other fears etc children may have.
One of my children told me with absolute certainty they would never smack a child.
Another was faced with a child who kicked, spat and threw their shoes at her, and as she said, if the child was hers, there is no way it would not have been smacked.
So to all those who are not involved in a moment of rage from children, you know there side can be very violent and problematic, it is obvious were this is going to end with a much stronger and stressed parent no matter what best intentions there are in play.
When one of my children was 2 about I was carrying them upstairs and they decided to bit me in the shoulder. The pain and reaction to drop the child was immense. But my love was to care and not hurt the child but slowly put them down and find out what was going on. They did not know and were very frightened. I just reassured them and emphasised this was not a good idea, especially if I had dropped them etc.
What I am trying to get across, is in a loving relationship there is a power play that really matters, and you need to know on your side you are in control and know why and what you doing. If at all possible all other tactics other than smacking should be used, but sometimes it appears to be the only option. Funnily for those who say I am so wrong, it is actually biblical.
By the way, my children have done exceptionally well at school, have got the highest grades, have great social lives and are part of friendship groups that are active and lively. So whatever the scare mongers are about loving children as you would like to be loved, it really does work.
The research I have heared about is the best parents use both letting the children freely express themselves and experiment with the limits of who they are, along with discipline when things go too far, and if the child has no boundaries they can set for themselves, will intervene and put them in place.
One thing I will share is how we are all individuals. I used to take one child who was having a temper tantrum and carry them up to their room. I would then stay at the door with the door open and leave them in the room until they calmed down. Now to a claustrophobic this was terrible, but to someone who refused to sit still, and was just letting everything fly, it gave them space to do what they wanted, but I was there to stop it going too far. The child would say, "Let me down stairs." I would say, "When you have calmed down.", They would shout, "I am calmed down." After 15 minutes or so things would be ok, and we could go back to where we were.
I preferred this approach to shutting the door as I had learnt from friends who as children had found this very frightening.
The truth is though, whatever you do it is always going to be a compromise, but it is worthwhile learning from others.
What as a couple we found funny was going to a parenting course, and hearing, "Just tell you child to behave"
We both laughed, along with another couple who had a hyper active child. If only things were that simple.
The research I have heared about is the best parents use both letting the children freely express themselves and experiment with the limits of who they are, along with discipline when things go too far, and if the child has no boundaries they can set for themselves, will intervene and put them in place.
One thing I will share is how we are all individuals. I used to take one child who was having a temper tantrum and carry them up to their room. I would then stay at the door with the door open and leave them in the room until they calmed down. Now to a claustrophobic this was terrible, but to someone who refused to sit still, and was just letting everything fly, it gave them space to do what they wanted, but I was there to stop it going too far. The child would say, "Let me down stairs." I would say, "When you have calmed down.", They would shout, "I am calmed down." After 15 minutes or so things would be ok, and we could go back to where we were.
I preferred this approach to shutting the door as I had learnt from friends who as children had found this very frightening.
The truth is though, whatever you do it is always going to be a compromise, but it is worthwhile learning from others.
What as a couple we found funny was going to a parenting course, and hearing, "Just tell you child to behave"
We both laughed, along with another couple who had a hyper active child. If only things were that simple.
But see, what you are doing is basing your belief on the Old Testament and nothing in the New Testament, though. Proverbs can sometimes line up with what is said in the New Testament, but sometimes it cannot be. For the New Testament Law of Christ replaces the Old Testament Law of Moses. Jesus said if someone smites you on the cheek turn to them the other also. Love. Yeah, it's a crazy concept and almost laughable by some, but when love is patient and kind it can speak more volumes than any book. For the Lord inspired Paul to write very clearly about the importance of love (1 Corinthians 13). I mean, we always think... hey... that kind of love is just for the other guy. No. The love in 1 Corinthians 13 is for all human beings. Be not overcome with evil, but overcome evil with good. That is what Paul said. Even Jesus said do not render evil for evil. Evil here is speaking in terms of how you think you need to return violence for violence. I believe there are other alternatives to lovingly disciplining a child (who is excessively violent). Take away their privileges. Hold a pillow against them and or hold them in a way that they cannot kick or bite you. Hold them and say.... I am going to hold you all day until you calm down. Do you want that little buddy? Chances are kids do not want to be restrained in such a way. It would restrict their freedom. But you are not harming the child. You can also yell at them and hold them there. If they do not behave, lock them in their room and take way their benefits like TV, internet, play toys, etc. If they kick the walls, then holding them and telling them you love them and you want them to calm down is the better option than smacking them upside the head. Sure, you may have gotten results by your method, but you have to realize how many others have not gotten good results, though. They will not trust you completely because they may not know if you are going to smack them or not instead of the parent choosing to listen to them and hear their side of the story. Love. Yeah, crazy concept. I know. Doesn't make sense to alot of people.
Unfortunately whatever technique is used, it involves force. Now if however you behave it becomes unpredictable that is the problem. Now the trouble with young children is they vary so much, and the pressures on parents and how they cope also varies. It helps if parents have a good understanding of their emotional makeup, so they know where they are.
I have to say one technique which often worked was the count down to a smack. It was a punishment they did not like, and they had time to think about it, and they knew exactly why it was happening, and what they needed to do to avoid it.
The truth was you had to be 100% consistent, and they would get what was going to be done. Now you know what you are dealing with when still this is ignored. Later it became some punishment which was usually withdrawal of something they liked. Would I do things in the same way now, as I did then? No. I would have looked at other punishments other than smaking that might have worked. Why it was usefull, was it was over and done with quickly, and it was something to be avoided.
The problem is, by putting pressure on parents to create other punishments may not work so well. One uses the idea a child catcher will come and take the badly behaved children away. Another uses soap in the mouth. What would definately help is training about what works and what does not. Most parents often learn by themselves, and do not talk openly with others about it. My father I think got thrashed as they called it by his dad. Men often do not know what to do, and go way too far. So it makes sense governments have got involved, because abuse is too common.
So if I ever have grand children, what will I do, probably use humour, restraint and restrictions, but not smacking.
Funnily handling teenagers has all the same ingredients, but the ball game is different. Here psychology and variation is important, though somehow in the right mood they can be positively insulting for no good reason other than they feel like it.
I have found assertive behaviour works quite well, pointing out the problem, and then ignoring it because of there total lack of maturity and respect, which they actually really want more than anything. But then this is now a mind game, rather than force. I have been with families who end up in a swearing conflict, over nothing, which ends in hurt feelings and too much agression. But that is life is you want people to be real, it is healthy and safe hopefully to be like this in a family, and it is where real love can be demonstrated.
I have to say one technique which often worked was the count down to a smack. It was a punishment they did not like, and they had time to think about it, and they knew exactly why it was happening, and what they needed to do to avoid it.
The truth was you had to be 100% consistent, and they would get what was going to be done. Now you know what you are dealing with when still this is ignored. Later it became some punishment which was usually withdrawal of something they liked. Would I do things in the same way now, as I did then? No. I would have looked at other punishments other than smaking that might have worked. Why it was usefull, was it was over and done with quickly, and it was something to be avoided.
The problem is, by putting pressure on parents to create other punishments may not work so well. One uses the idea a child catcher will come and take the badly behaved children away. Another uses soap in the mouth. What would definately help is training about what works and what does not. Most parents often learn by themselves, and do not talk openly with others about it. My father I think got thrashed as they called it by his dad. Men often do not know what to do, and go way too far. So it makes sense governments have got involved, because abuse is too common.
So if I ever have grand children, what will I do, probably use humour, restraint and restrictions, but not smacking.
Funnily handling teenagers has all the same ingredients, but the ball game is different. Here psychology and variation is important, though somehow in the right mood they can be positively insulting for no good reason other than they feel like it.
I have found assertive behaviour works quite well, pointing out the problem, and then ignoring it because of there total lack of maturity and respect, which they actually really want more than anything. But then this is now a mind game, rather than force. I have been with families who end up in a swearing conflict, over nothing, which ends in hurt feelings and too much agression. But that is life is you want people to be real, it is healthy and safe hopefully to be like this in a family, and it is where real love can be demonstrated.
I suggest you study the word rod as it means exactly what it implies a stick or branch for PUNISHING I.E. a switch!
And I have no PROBLEM reading what you are writing as your question for clarification PROVED exactly what you were thinking....
God inspired words...not your prayer life......I will take the words and their definitions any day over your interpretation which lacks any real credibility because you reject the INSPIRED words that God gave!
Jason......the reason your theology is off is because you reject words that have been inspired by God...EVERY WORD of GOD is INSPIRED and given for a reason...the way you reject words, verb tenses etc. has led you down a path of error.....you really should re-evaluate the way you study and what you base belief on!
And I have no PROBLEM reading what you are writing as your question for clarification PROVED exactly what you were thinking....
God inspired words...not your prayer life......I will take the words and their definitions any day over your interpretation which lacks any real credibility because you reject the INSPIRED words that God gave!
Jason......the reason your theology is off is because you reject words that have been inspired by God...EVERY WORD of GOD is INSPIRED and given for a reason...the way you reject words, verb tenses etc. has led you down a path of error.....you really should re-evaluate the way you study and what you base belief on!
As usual you take everything to it's maximum extreme to try and justify your views.....! By the way....my dog....got beat once with a newspaper rolled up when he crapped on the carpet...got chunked outside for a day and has never crapped on the carpet again and loves me to death...so your extreme to the left stance is ridiculous!
The New Testament in God's Word talks alot about how we are to love as believers. We are to even to pray for our enemies and to do good unto them. We are to turn the other cheek if we are smitten. We are not to be overcome by evil but we are to overcome evil with good. For loving one's neighbor fulfills the law (See Romans 13:8-10). For if one loves, they will not covet their neighbor's stuff. If one loves, they will not hurt or murder them. If one loves, they will tell them the truth to them in love (So as to guide them correctly because they honestly care).
So this is a Wake up Call for all those who have failed to love.
I am calling upon all believers now to let go of any hate or sin in your life and to just love.
For God so loved the world.... which then resulted in Him sending His Son whereby He would save us.
However, sadly this image below sort of describes the state of some who profess to be Christian today.
For love is one of the fruits of the Spirit. Can you honestly say you have that fruit in your life? It is important that we do have it because salvation is a relationship (1 John 5:12). Salvation is not in anything you do. But salvation is in the works the Lord does in you. So if you have not put off the old man and his unloving ways, I encourage you to take a step of faith now to let go of the hate and just love. Forgive and forget and just love all people. Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. For the Scriptures say in....
And they also say in...
If you do not know how to love, I ask you to call upon the Lord now to help you.
For He will transform you from the inside out and make you to walk in His good ways where you will love in both word and deed (Because He is the One loving thru you).
Anyways, may the Lord's love shine upon you greatly today.
And please be well.
Sincerely,
~ Jason.
....
So this is a Wake up Call for all those who have failed to love.
I am calling upon all believers now to let go of any hate or sin in your life and to just love.
For God so loved the world.... which then resulted in Him sending His Son whereby He would save us.
However, sadly this image below sort of describes the state of some who profess to be Christian today.
For love is one of the fruits of the Spirit. Can you honestly say you have that fruit in your life? It is important that we do have it because salvation is a relationship (1 John 5:12). Salvation is not in anything you do. But salvation is in the works the Lord does in you. So if you have not put off the old man and his unloving ways, I encourage you to take a step of faith now to let go of the hate and just love. Forgive and forget and just love all people. Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. For the Scriptures say in....
And they also say in...
If you do not know how to love, I ask you to call upon the Lord now to help you.
For He will transform you from the inside out and make you to walk in His good ways where you will love in both word and deed (Because He is the One loving thru you).
Anyways, may the Lord's love shine upon you greatly today.
And please be well.
Sincerely,
~ Jason.
....
Btw I think you are spot on.