Veganism: Moral Superiority?

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Tommy379

Notorious Member
Jan 12, 2016
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#61
I don't get this whole argument that God didn't permit the eating of animal flesh before the flood. I read no stated prohibition in the bible before the flood. In fact, did not Abel have live stock, and did not God give favor to Abel's offerings?
 

BenFTW

Senior Member
Oct 7, 2012
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#62
After The Flood it was permitted (required?) for men to eat animal flesh
so long as it was killed (Gen. 9:2-4) and, preferably, cooked (Gen. 8:20-21).
Yes, the fact that God decreed such is informative of the fact that meat consumption in and of itself is not immoral. Now, the means by which you take its life and the way you treat the animal during its life, can be deemed immoral, abusive, and downright sick.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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#63
I don't get this whole argument that God didn't permit the eating of animal flesh before the flood. I read no stated prohibition in the bible before the flood. In fact, did not Abel have live stock, and did not God give favor to Abel's offerings?
That is certainly true :) However, animal flesh was not officially given for food until after the flood. Before that, fruit and seed bearing plants and tress as well as herbs were given for food. Gen 1:29-30 (pre flood)

God said, "I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds in the sky and all the creatures that move along the ground--everything that has the breath of life in it--I give every green plant for food." And it was so.

Post flood (Genesis 9)

God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth.

And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth, and upon every fowl of the air, upon all that moveth upon the earth, and upon all the fishes of the sea; into your hand are they delivered.

Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.

 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
56,086
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#64
So it seems that even animals were vegetarians before the flood. After that, following the great cleansing, animal flesh was given for food. Is that when animals started eating other animals? It is an interesting question because people often bring up the matter of animal compatibility on the ark, but if it is true that none ate meat until after the flood, then that would not be an issue :eek: Of course the world and all creation was already fallen, but in the world to come, all animals will again peacefully co-exist, without fear of one another, including humans.
 

BenFTW

Senior Member
Oct 7, 2012
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#65
That is certainly true :) However, animal flesh was not officially given for food until after the flood. Before that, fruit and seed bearing plants and tress as well as herbs were given for food. Gen 1:29-30 (pre flood)

God said, "I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds in the sky and all the creatures that move along the ground--everything that has the breath of life in it--I give every green plant for food." And it was so.

Post flood (Genesis 9)

God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth.

And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth, and upon every fowl of the air, upon all that moveth upon the earth, and upon all the fishes of the sea; into your hand are they delivered.

Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.

"And the fear of you and the dread of you", oh snap. lol We turned into predators that day. That wording sounds so strong.
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
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#66
You should check out the book The Plant Paradox by Dr Gundry MD. Learn about lectins in foods, its fascinating. People have resolved auto-immune diseases through it. Yes, you read that right.

Ben, this is so tedious! Don't you think I have tried every diet and quack nostrum? They don't work! I have eaten healthy most of my life, except the brief time my husband made me eat like him. (He remains incredibly healthy, despite lack of exercise and a penchant for chemicals and sugar!) Any evidence these diets work is placebo effect. In other words, all in their heads!

These diets don't work, and there are no double blind studies to show any diets work for RA. It is all anecdotal. It also defies the understanding of what autoimmune diseases are!
 

BenFTW

Senior Member
Oct 7, 2012
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#67
Ben, this is so tedious! Don't you think I have tried every diet and quack nostrum? They don't work! I have eaten healthy most of my life, except the brief time my husband made me eat like him. (He remains incredibly healthy, despite lack of exercise and a penchant for chemicals and sugar!) Any evidence these diets work is placebo effect. In other words, all in their heads!

These diets don't work, and there are no double blind studies to show any diets work for RA. It is all anecdotal. It also defies the understanding of what autoimmune diseases are!
My sister used to wake up with cramps in her hands and tightening due to arthritis, and within days of removing lectins from her diet she wakes up with no tightening or cramping. This isn't placebo, she just tried it. Out of 800 patients in a study where they removed lectins from their diet, all 800 resolved their auto-immune disease. All. Those results with just placebo? I think not. Surely there was a skeptic amongst them, and yet healed.
 

J7

Banned
Apr 2, 2017
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#68
I am not a vegan, my favorite thing to eat is steak. The only moral ground vegans really have (in my opinion) is how on many of the farms, the animals live in horrific conditions- like cows standing in feces all day, and chickens suffocating each other in crowded chicken houses. I'd much rather have my hamburgers and fried chicken enjoying a pleasant existence before they are killed for my consumption.

This is the only moral ground, that I can see. But it is one of those things that are secondary or tertiary. After all, Paul in Corinthians says that neither eating nor abstaing from meat commends us to God.
I think it is very important. Mosaic Law has a law of animal husbandry.

4 You shall not muzzle an ox while it is treading out the grain.

And Solomon says the righteous, us, know how to treat animals well

Proverbs 12:10 The righteous know the needs of their animals,

but the mercy of the wicked is cruel.
 

J7

Banned
Apr 2, 2017
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#69
I did a quasi Daniel diet recently, 21 days no meat. Basically veg and fruit and pulses, and a bit of dairy. Apparently you should not do dairy.

It actually worked wonders.

I was as stiff as a board, I mean all my joints were locking up, and now am loose as a goose,well not quite, but way better.
 
A

Ariel82

Guest
#70
My sister used to wake up with cramps in her hands and tightening due to arthritis, and within days of removing lectins from her diet she wakes up with no tightening or cramping. This isn't placebo, she just tried it. Out of 800 patients in a study where they removed lectins from their diet, all 800 resolved their auto-immune disease. All. Those results with just placebo? I think not. Surely there was a skeptic amongst them, and yet healed.
Don't know how you can cut it out of your diet...

All about lectins: Here's what you need to know | Precision Nutrition

It seems to be in most foods.
 
Dec 19, 2009
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#71
I think I'd rather not eat animals, but you have to get your amino acids somehow.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
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#72
Today's meat is not hunted somewhere in forests, these animals are bred just for this purpose.

So if you will not eat them, you will not save them. They will not be born at all.

Also, the theory that all creatures including carnivors, birds etc were vegans before the flood is a very strange one.
 
May 12, 2017
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#74
Today's meat is not hunted somewhere in forests, these animals are bred just for this purpose.

So if you will not eat them, you will not save them. They will not be born at all.

Also, the theory that all creatures including carnivors, birds etc were vegans before the flood is a very strange one.
Funny that you call a theory what the Bible calls a fact. This is unless you are theistic evolutionist.
 
May 12, 2017
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#75
Ben, this is so tedious! Don't you think I have tried every diet and quack nostrum? They don't work! I have eaten healthy most of my life, except the brief time my husband made me eat like him. (He remains incredibly healthy, despite lack of exercise and a penchant for chemicals and sugar!) Any evidence these diets work is placebo effect. In other words, all in their heads!

These diets don't work, and there are no double blind studies to show any diets work for RA. It is all anecdotal. It also defies the understanding of what autoimmune diseases are!
Food Science disagrees with you here and in spades. My wife was diagnosed with RA in both knees, the xrays showed it and everything. The medical doctors immediately started pharmaceutical therapies. They also wanted her to go to counseling to prepare her for sitting in a wheel chair the rest of her life. She took the info to our Chiropractor. He confirmed the RA and said it was very aggressive and would cripple her. He then told her not to eat any rices, grains, pasta, bread, flours, GMO based anything, certain dairy products, no more processed anything.

Only fresh veggies/ fruits, certain raw nuts and lean proteins, including copious amounts of humus and filtered water.
Her RA disappeared completely in 52 days, she lost over 45 lbs, and took off over 500lbs of pressure of her knees.

The medical doctors were stumped, expect for one dietician on her Dr's staff.

If I eat any kind of grain products I bloat up and my hands hurt. If I stay clear of them, I am fine.
 
May 12, 2017
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#76
I don't get this whole argument that God didn't permit the eating of animal flesh before the flood. I read no stated prohibition in the bible before the flood. In fact, did not Abel have live stock, and did not God give favor to Abel's offerings?
Gen 1.29-31
[SUP]29 [/SUP]Then God said, “Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the surface of all the earth, and every tree which has fruit yielding seed; it shall be food for you; [SUP]30 [/SUP]and to every beast of the earth and to every bird of the sky and to every thing that moves on the earth which has life, I have given every green plant for food”; and it was so. [SUP]31 [/SUP]God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.

Animals were not created by God for Food. They were created to be Adams help meet, before God saw they were unsuited to be Adams help meet and he created woman

Gen 2.18-20
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Then the Lord God said, “It is not good for the man to be alone; I will make him a helper suitable for him.” [SUP]19 [/SUP]Out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the sky, and brought them to the man to see what he would call them; and whatever the man called a living creature, that was its name. [SUP]20 [/SUP]The man gave names to all the cattle, and to the birds of the sky, and to every beast of the field, but for Adam there was not found a helper suitable for him


After the flood God made the animals afraid of human kind and gave them for humans to eat. In this passage God shows us that only green plants were for food before the flood.

Gen 9.1-5

9 And God blessed Noah and his sons and said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth. [SUP]2 [/SUP]The fear of you and the terror of you will be on every beast of the earth and on every bird of the sky; with everything that creeps on the ground, and all the fish of the sea, into your hand they are given. [SUP]3 [/SUP]Every moving thing that is alive shall be food for you; I give all to you, as I gave the green plant. [SUP]4 [/SUP]Only you shall not eat flesh with its life, that is, its blood. [SUP]5 [/SUP]Surely I will require your lifeblood; from every beast I will require it. And from every man, from every man’s brother I will require the life of man.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
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#77
Funny that you call a theory what the Bible calls a fact. This is unless you are theistic evolutionist.
Where does Bible say that nobody ate meat before the Flood?

Unless you are young Earth proponent.
 

Huckleberry

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
1,698
96
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#78
Where does Bible say that nobody ate meat before the Flood?
Meat was consumed prior to the Flood,
however it was for reasons of evil rather than survival.
The ancient Greeks, et al, didn't invent their religions out of thin air.
They were based on the true history of the antediluvian world.

Gen. 6:12
And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt;
for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.
 
May 12, 2017
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#79
Meat was consumed prior to the Flood,
however it was for reasons of evil rather than survival.
The ancient Greeks, et al, didn't invent their religions out of thin air.
They were based on the true history of the antediluvian world.

Gen. 6:12
And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt;
for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.
How does this verse have anything to do with eating meat?
 

notbythesword

Senior Member
Apr 28, 2015
305
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#80
Well, evolution is inherent in the conversation because vegans equate humans to animals. They attempt to put them on a level playing field, if you will. When we know that God created both humans and animals, not as one but as separately distinct creations. He even gave us dominion. Not as tyrants, of course. I understand that animals initially were not for food, in the Garden of Eden and that only at a later date did God grant permission to consume them. Obviously God, Almighty, didn't find it unethical to consume meat and if we are talking morality, I think God has the final say.

Yes, its wonderful that after all is said and done there will be peace and unity for all of God's creation. No death. No suffering. Just peace and tranquility.
God didn’t find it unethical to clothe Adam and Eve with skins either...Genesis 3:21
 
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