WE ARE CLEAN

Grace777x70 · Oct 19, 2016

It is interesting that in the 2 word for word descriptions of Peter and Paul preaching the gospel in acts 10 and 13 that not once is the word "repentance" used...any yet the people repented when they heard about Jesus and His complete forgiveness of sins. I found this so interesting in light of our modern day evangelical religious traditions. I wrote about this..I'll see if I can go find it...

Grace777x70 · Oct 19, 2016

Let's look at it through what scripture has to say about repentance ( changing our mind - the way we think ) concerning preaching the gospel. I know we have been taught differently through our religious upbringing and beliefs handed down to us. Let's let God's word speak life to us.

Peter preached the gospel of the grace of Christ. to Cornelius ..no word used for repentence was said

Acts 10:43-44 (NASB)
[SUP]43 [/SUP] "Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins."

[SUP]44 [/SUP] While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message.

They were not told to "repent" here.

I love how the Holy Spirit "falls upon " them as soon as they hear about the forgiveness of sins proclaimed to them because of Christ!

Peter got in trouble with the Jewish Christians when he went back because he went into a gentile's house and preached the gospel to them...he says in Acts 11:17,18

Acts 11:17-18 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] "Therefore if God gave to them the same gift as He gave to us also after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God's way?"

[SUP]18 [/SUP] When they heard this, they quieted down and glorified God, saying, "Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life."

What was there repentance even tho the word "repent" was not used?...they changed their mind toward God and had faith in Jesus and in His complete forgiveness of sins. This is the gospel message.

Notice that it was God that granted them repentance.

New Covenant repentance is not something we conjure up on our own nor is it a work we produce.

2 Tim 2:24-25 says that God may grant them repentance so that they may know the truth. God grants the repentance..not a work we do on our own.

Paul preached the gospel of grace here in the only recorded time in scripture.

Acts 13:38-39 (NASB)
[SUP]38 [/SUP] "Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through Him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you,

[SUP]39 [/SUP] and through Him everyone who believes is freed from all things, from which you could not be freed through the Law of Moses.

Again ..no telling them to "repent" was voiced here either by Paul...but Paul did tell them .." urged them to continue in the grace of God"

Both of the examples we have of New Covenant preaching about the gospel of grace had NO words of telling people to repent.

These clearly show that "repentance " was not told to them and yet they did repent.

So, repentance does not mean "turn from sin '..it means change your mind ( change your way of thinking and rely on God only for things dealing with your life) and turn to God and believe in Jesus and what He has already done.

There is a change after we come to Christ and His life in us transforms us. This is where we see the "fruit" of repentance. Fruit is not the "root" of repentance. And Yes!...this does mean to stop sinning as we rely on the life of Christ to transforms us by the Holy Spirit within us

Fruit of an exchanged life comes after we have "repented " - changed our thinking to rely on Christ's work only for salvation and this does include our view of sinning.

We all need to repent every day as we hear the beauty of our Lord proclaimed!

Brethern ...I urge you to believe in the awesome greatness and splendor of our Lord's magnificent finished work on our behalf!

Angela53510 · Oct 19, 2016

Grace777x70 said:

Why is it malice for me to ask you to answer one simple question? And since you do not ever seem to answer, but instead you divert and try and make people feel sorry for you, because somehow I am attacking you, rather than the truth that I am begging you to show me, in the Bible, the following:

Where is healing included in the atonement?

I simply do not understand why you keep thinking you are the only ones who have a handle on the "wonderfulness of what Christ has done for us" or that I as a believer of 36 years have no comprehension that "[Jesus] shed his blood for us," or that "Jesus is Lord and sits at the right hand of the Father" or that I and other non-hyper grace believers do not believe in "the goodness and love of our Lord for us." Finally, how and why would you infer that I do not "believe that He is a good, good, loving Father?"

The real insult in this thread, besides the hurtful statements that if I am not healed, it is my faith that is at fault, are the complete lies that I and others like me do not believe in the amazing grace of God! Amazing grace is my theme song! I sang it in bars, before I was saved, and when God saved me, and I realized the meaning of the words, I have rejoiced ever since! I believe in God's love, his caring, his provision, and I have experienced daily his incredible mercy in not only saving me, but walking with me daily, and transforming me into his image - which will be complete when I see him face to face. (1 Cor. 13:12; 1 John 3:2)

God has called me to faithfully minister the truth of his love, mercy and grace, and that reconciliation to God is found only in Christ Jesus. I would post Scriptures for all these basic truths, but that would mean writing out a good portion of the Bible, because that is the message of the Bible, from Genesis to Revelation!

Of course, there is the part where we need to repent of our sins, and confess them before those we have injured, and God. So if you think my purpose in posting here is to wound you, in any way, shape or form, I apologize. My goal is to show people the lie of hyper grace. And since you and LadyLynn seem to be both members of this terrible cult, and keep posting over and over the same unbiblical things, I guess it may seem like I am attacking you, when in fact, I am solely discussing this terrible theology, which is unjust and condemning of the sick and simply NOT in the Bible.

And I have news for you, everyone ends up sick, sooner or later in this life, unless they die early in a car crash or some such similar tragedy.

So, one more time.

The cross is about Jesus death as a sacrifice for our sins! It is an incredible display of the power and love of God. We can all "claim" salvation through the cross. Jesus' death on the cross is the propitiation (or offering) for our sins - once for all, and once forever! I can post many scriptures that affirm the declaration:

JESUS DIED ON THE CROSS FOR OUR SINS!

"and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility." Eph. 2:16

"And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses,14 by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross." Col. 2:13-14

"looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God." Hebrews 12:2

I ask you to post one verse that is exegetically correct that proves that the cross of Christ, the atonement for our sins, was also for our healing. Because if you can show that, I will concede that I am 100% wrong, and that I can now begin (once again, sigh!) claiming my healing. My New Covenant healing, which is found in the atonement, not in the goodness and power of God. SO:

Where is healing included in the atonement?

Do not side step me again, with your repetitious nonsense about superabounding! I do believe in the incredible abundance of God's grace! But that is a simple model of the gospel, which includes so much more. BUT, it does NOT include automatic healing which we can claim.

And if you want to take this as a direct attack on you, please do not! You are the one who keeps defending this indefensible position. I am trying to discuss what the BIBLE says about healing, and how it is NOT included in the atonement.

So please show the Scriptures which definitely say that healing is found in the atonement. Thanks!

Grace777x70 · Oct 19, 2016

Angela, I am not having this discussion with you because of how it affects you. I have already showed you in the scriptures where I believe that Jesus heals everyone that comes to Him. Hebrews 1:2-3 shows that Jesus is the exact representation of the nature of the Father. Jesus came to do the Father's will.

Jesus is perfect theology.

Jesus came to reveal the will of the Father and to do the will of the Father. In no place can we see Jesus refusing to heal anyone. - No place. He healed "every" person that came to Him.

No where do we see Jesus saying to people coming to Him for healing any of the following statements:

1) I can't heal you because the Father wants you to suffer.

2) I will not heal you until you forgive your mother-in-law for all the bad things she did to you.

3) I can't heal you because of un-confessed sin in your life.

4) I will not heal you until you show me that you are starting to eat right. ( funny thing is that they were all on the Mediterranean Diet )

5) I will not heal you because the Father is disciplining you and "refining your character".

Also in post # 124

There are NO scriptures "proving" that God refuses to heal people that have come to Jesus while He was on this earth.

Here is the link where I show that healing is a part of the gospel with the man at Lystra being healed because he had faith when he heard Paul preaching the gospel to him. In order to have faith - one must hear the truth first and respond to it. I am NOT going over this again. Post # 127

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/142826-we-clean-7.html#post2838838

Here is post #144 where I address the 1 Peter 1:23 scripture and the theory that healing means metaphorically for our sins and it is not physical.

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/142826-we-clean-8.html#post2839132

Angela, you can believe whatever you want - that is your business. This is the end of this discussion for all the reasons I have brought out in my posts about this subject.

Have the faith that you have before God and I pray you get better. I will not answer any more posts as I have said all that I am going to say about healing in this thread. If you believe differently then I do - that is your choice.

I will not call you a heretic, a deceiver, false teacher, liar or demonic because you differ from me. Neither will I insult you and be condescending. I will listen to what you have to say and than trust the Holy Spirit to reveal what I am to believe.

Let's just honor each other and have respect for each other. Thank you. Be blessed and let's just walk away agreeing to disagree and let there be peace. All is well.......

Romans 14:22 (NASB)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] The faith which you have, have as your own conviction before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves.

Romans 12:18 (NASB)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] If possible, so far as it depends on you, be at peace with all men.

Chester · Oct 19, 2016

Grace777x70 said:

Our Father is even more wanting for His children to be well than we are as parents.

Religion has taught us that God gives us sickness to teach us "things".

Would we want our own children to be sick to teach them something? Would we put a sickness on our own children? No, a thousand times No. Our Father loves us more then our mere human love does but He operates from different perspectives and principles then we do on this earth.

.........healing is definitely in the true gospel message.....as can be seen when Paul preached the gospel in Lystra. in Acts 14.

Acts 14:7-10 (NASB)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] and there they continued to preach the gospel.

[SUP]8 [/SUP] At Lystra a man was sitting who had no strength in his feet, lame from his mother's womb, who had never walked.

[SUP]9 [/SUP] This man was listening to Paul as he spoke, who, when he had fixed his gaze on him and had seen that he had faith to be made well,

[SUP]10 [/SUP] said with a loud voice, "Stand upright on your feet." And he leaped up and began to walk.

Paul was preaching the GOSPEL.... the man lame was listening to Paul and then he had faith to be made whole...where did this man get faith to be made whole in his body?

Romans 10:17 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

The man that was lame from birth heard in the preaching of the gospel of the grace of Christ that he could be made whole. He believed...Paul saw it in him and encouraged him to act on his faith.

Healing is a part of the gospel of the grace of Christ as the being born-again is.

In the same token there are those people in the body of Christ that seem to look down at those that are sick as if they don't have faith or that there is some sort of sin in their lives and thus really are condemning these people. That is not right nor Christ-like but neither is it Christ-like to call believers in the Lord a cult and a heresy because they do believe healing is for us in Christ.

Let each person have the faith that they have but we need to be sensitive to the others that we don't upset their faith in the Lord.

I believe that God is able to heal and deeply cares about us physically, emotionally, and spiritually.

But to say that healing is part of the true gospel message or is a part of the atonement?? And I don't see how a person dare take a simple story in Acts and try to get doctrine out of it!?

Doctrine must always be based on clear Biblical teaching and clear statements.

Grace777x70 · Oct 19, 2016

Chester said:

Look at all the other posts I have made on this subject.

It is not just the fact that the gospel was preached and the man did have faith to be healed after listening to the gospel of the grace of Christ. I don't know how much plainer it can get.

But everyone is entitled to believe whatever they want on this subject...no problem with me on that....I am not going to argue with anyone over it...have the faith that you have before God and be content with that....

PeterJens · Oct 20, 2016

ladylynn said:

The above is not about what is being said as the power of positive confession.
Saying the words does not make it true.

This is like casting spells, I have said the words so it has happened.

Imagine washing your dishes this way. No you use water and soap, and
clear until they are clean using your eyes.

But that is self effort. Funny but everyday when you wash your body you do
not proclaim yourself clean, and you are, you clean yourself in the shower.

Why is it when people come to the soul they want a now effort solution rather
than walking in the cross, applying the forgiveness of confession of sin, repenting
and getting right with God.

Grace777x70 · Oct 20, 2016

Our faith becomes effective ( working in our lives ) in the acknowledging of the good things that Christ has doe for us. Speaking what God has said with the words of faith is 100% biblical.

These truths may offend our humanistic natural minds but once we have our minds renewed to the truths of the life of Christ within us - we will then understand them and walk in them.

Philemon 1:6 (KJV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] That the communication of thy faith may become effectual by the acknowledging of every good thing which is in you in Christ Jesus.

PeterJens · Oct 20, 2016

Buddhists use prayer wheels. On the wheels are written words. If you spin the wheel
the words are being said. Now in this idea the person and brain are removed from the process
it is a "spiritual" dimension.

A lot of religious ceremonies work the same way. Repeat the words, even if you do not understand
them, they have power. But it creates dead faith and dead works.

What is not dead is words that work out in the soul. Because in life the only thing that has influence
is when words tie up with change inside us or actions that change things in the world.

I can say "Jesus is Lord" but unless I believe it in my heart they are just words.

PeterJens · Oct 20, 2016

Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe also in me.
John 14:1

gb9 · Oct 20, 2016

the 2nd paragraph here should apply to your stupid list. that also does nothing but create dead faith and works. focusing on rule-keeping and not Jesus is man-made religion at it's worst. like you list. I say your list because that is what it is . yours. not Jesus.

PeterJens · Oct 20, 2016

I am convinced, being fully persuaded in the Lord Jesus, that nothing is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for that person it is unclean.
Rom 14:14

If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Rom 10:9

PeterJens · Oct 20, 2016

gb9 said:

It is an interesting point. Anglican ceremony uses the book of common prayer, to distil the
essense of the beliefs of the gospel. Now I know what you mean about dead faith, I have
spoken to many who on the surface appear to have a dead faith. But impressions can be illusory.

People who have actually repented, confessed and believed on Christ do have a life changing
experience. All of our church is full of people who have done this, and they are alive in faith.

But as cc demonstrates, many claim to have faith but have gone into error or never really understood
Jesus in the first place.

It is why when I say "Jesus is Lord" it lifts my heart, Praise the Lord and amen. Maybe this does not
happen for you...

eternally-gratefull · Oct 20, 2016

we need to separate healing from the gospel. It is not including in the gospel. the gospel concerns spiritual healing, not physical..

Physical healing can happen to anyone, Saved or not (I know I have witnessed a person who wanted nothing to do with God get healed when the Church prayed for them, and as far as I know. this healing just blessed others and helped a few grow closer to God. this said person has yet to come to Christ.)

Lets stick with the gospel of Grace, and make the gift of healing or not another topic..

PeterJens · Oct 20, 2016

Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. All who have this hope in him purify themselves, just as he is pure.
1 John 3:2-3

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.
1 John 1:9

Cleansing or purification is an important need.
Confession of sins purifies us.
Believing in Christ purifies us.

Therefore, since we have these promises, dear friends, let us purify ourselves from everything that contaminates body and spirit, perfecting holiness out of reverence for God.
2 Cor 7:1

Contaminates seems to be defilement. So removing sinful or bad practices or things
that give us problems should be done, ie what we watch, how we speak, where we go.

Jesus cleans us, but we are also involved in confession, changing our practises, having
faith and trust in Christ. So this is much more than just saying "I am clean"

eph610 · Oct 20, 2016

eternally-gratefull said:

Agreed here, the gifts of healing are to demonstrate the kingdom Of God...

That said, what does "spiritual healing" look like?

ladylynn · Oct 20, 2016

eternally-gratefull said:

I've come to see this topic very differently now since finding out about the gospel of grace. I do not separate the 2 types of healing as many do because the one has often coincided with the other in my life and continues to do so every day.

Again., it is not an either/or situation imo. One leads to the other so often I cannot deny healing comes in all areas because of Jesus. Jesus is Lord in all areas both in my physical body as well as my spirit man. Although each day I'm still learning how to walk with my physical feet and see with my physical eyes what I see by faith from my heart.

Thereby making my daily life one of anticipation., wondering what will Jesus do next? What will He show me next?
What new truth will the Holy Spirit teach and guide into this day????

eternally-gratefull · Oct 20, 2016

ladylynn said:

Like I said If it is united. Then EVERYONE who is saved would be healed imediately, and there would be no sickness or health issues after one is saved, And they would be well off.

This is not the case. so to say it is united is to water down the gospel , because if the gospel can not make everyone well. Then it must be weak (the fact Christians still get sick, cancer and die would support my view) and probably why so many are so against JP and his teachings, If JP is really combining the two. (I will not judge)

The gospel has MANY offshoots which come as a result.. Spiritual gifting, The ability to study and understand Gods word. The ability to be sanctified. The ability to Do Good works. and yes, even the ability to be healed by God.

but these need to be separated and given their place.

eternally-gratefull · Oct 20, 2016

eph610 said:

Well if we are spiritually dead, What does that look like, then what does it look like to be made alive (healed) how does that affect us?

eph610 · Oct 20, 2016

eternally-gratefull said:

touche et EG...lol

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