WE ARE CLEAN

[ladylynn]

our hearts crave to understand and know the hidden mysteries of our Heavenly Father,
but as we learn, He shows and tells us as He wills in His own way and time...

Yes, we have hearts that crave Him and He will not leave us empty. He promises to come and "sup" with us and be with us and make His presence known to us. John 7:38-39
[SUP]
38 [/SUP]He who believes in Me [who cleaves to and trusts in and relies on Me] as the Scripture has said, From his innermost being shall flow [continuously] springs and rivers of living water.
[SUP]
39 [/SUP]But He was speaking here of the Spirit, Whom those who believed (trusted, had faith) in Him were afterward to receive. For the [Holy] Spirit had not yet been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified (raised to honor).


He has not left us alone, He has sent us the Comforter who will actually comfort and guide and direct and give those springs of living water flowing out of our bellies. The JOY of the Lord is our strength.
The JOY of the Lord is a fruit of the Spirit.

 

[Angela53510]

The so-called "hyper-grace" is not false just because it is different from what other people have been brought up to believe in regards to forgiveness of sins.

I want to address that completely false statement immediately and also that JP is teaching a lie because he says that God wants to heal you and it is His desire that you be well and whole.

Everyone is entitled to believe what they want as they study the scriptures and listen to the Spirit of God within them.

Personally I believe it is God's will for His children to be well. We can't live from our personal experiences when the word of God is saying something different on any subject.

I have had people tell me that they have asked Jesus to forgive them of their sins - but He didn't. These people were living by their own personal "experience" and not what scripture has to say.

There are Greek scholars that believe speaking in tongues is for today and there are others that don't believe in it - so the fact that some Greek scholar gives "his opinion" on a subject is irrelevant in the scheme of things.

In saying that - I do like to read what they have to say - but they don't have any "special" insight into the spiritual truths of God's word. We all have the Holy Spirit and we are 100% dependent on Him to reveal the things of God to us.

The so-called knowledge of a language does not translate into knowing the spiritual truth behind it just because someone gives their slant on it. This can be seen in the scribes and Pharisees that "knew" the scriptures and their encounter with Jesus - He said"you search the scriptures because you think in them you have eternal life but they speak of Me and you won't come to Me so that you may have life." John 5:39-40

Jesus is perfect theology.

Jesus came to reveal the will of the Father and to do the will of the Father. In no place can we see Jesus refusing to heal anyone. - No place. He healed "every" person that came to Him.

No where do we see Jesus saying to people coming to Him for healing any of the following statements:

1) I can't heal you because the Father wants you to suffer.

2) I will not heal you until you forgive your mother-in-law for all the bad things she did to you.

3) I can't heal you because of un-confessed sin in your life.

4) I will not heal you until you show me that you are starting to eat right. ( funny thing is that they were all on the Mediterranean Diet )

5) I will not heal you because the Father is disciplining you and "refining your character".

These statements above are all constructs of our own thoughts and are not based in any scripture. Yes, we will suffer persecution and trials while in this life - just like all the Jews did in Jesus' day.

Jesus healed all that came to Him and revealed that it was the Father's will to heal people.

There are those that have looked down on those of us that were not healed in the past and I can understand how that would make a person feel that was sick. We need to bear each other's burdens and not "judge" them.

There also are those that have "mimicked" someone else's faith and didn't take medicine and then died because of it. There are excesses and a lot of presumption in which people think they are acting in faith but in reality they are not. This causes lot's of problems and heartache for others in the body of Christ.

We do live in a fallen world and Jesus said "Be of good cheer for I have overcome the world". John says this:

1 John 5:4-5 (NASB)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.

[SUP]5 [/SUP] Who is the one who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

The question still remains: Why are not all people healed then? It is a great question - one which has many facets to it and we will not know why healing doesn't always manifest until we get to heaven.

We know that it is God's will that all people come to repentance to Christ but we know that some do reject Christ - so it's not a matter of what is the will of God. We see darkly now and we don't know things as we ought to know them. We know in part only.

We should NOT think that those that are not sick are more spiritual than those that are sick nor judge them. We need to also allow people to have the faith that they have before God in matters like this. It is equally important not to call others that believe differently in this area - heretics, liars or false teachers because we believe differently than they do.

Romans 14:22 (NASB)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] The faith which you have, have as your own conviction before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves.

Those are my thoughts on healing and I am not interested in debating this as in the past all it does is stir up resentment and does nothing to help us grow up in Christ. I'll let the Holy Spirit speak to all of us in this area as all of us only know it part.

God bless and I pray that we all grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
For those that are interested in this subject concerning why all are not healed - this is one guy's take on it. He talks about the time when the disciples couldn't heal a boy. One would think that it must not be God's will. - then Jesus Himself showed up and showed it was God's will to heal the boy.

I hope this was directed at me, because I certainly will answer this nonsense.

First, when we are having a Bible discussion, maybe you could comment on the specific verses I posted, and refute them exegetcially. Oh wait! You can't, so you threw out some red herring, like "opinions" and some points about Jesus, which miss the rest of the New Testament besides the gospels. Again, you might try and talk your way around Romans 5:3-5. Even in context it tells us we are going to suffer in this life. And if we don't, we are probably not serving God or walking with him. God never told us this life was going to be a cake walk! But we can have peace and joy and the other fruits of the Spirit, in spite of the trials and tribulations of life.

So please answer the actual scriptures in my last post! (Number 113)

As for the parts above that I enlarged, those are super red herring! And not true! When you claim that a studied and considered reading, especially in the original languages is an "opinion" you are just confirming that you have absolutely no understanding of either theology, Bible hermeneutics let alone the original languages.

OR if you think you can answer my post about Isa. 53:4-6 by reinterpreting it, go right ahead. I have just read over and over and over this key verses by Word Faith and hypergrace people, and yet, no one is willing to take this on.

If what I have posted is the "opinion" of a world renowned scholar, then show how he is wrong. Show how your "opinion" is right. Oh right, you don't have the knowledge of Greek or Hebrew to do that.

If a scholar has to say about the issue of healing in the atonement is far from irrevelant, but extremely important. Of course, if you ever got your head out of "Escape to Reality" web site and Internet preachers of the WF, HG variety, you might find a whole world of scholarly theology, with a much sounder base than the false HG teachers, and JP!

If the Bible is just about "opinions" and that is the label you attach to anyone who does not agree with your mistaken and dangerous theology, then that undermines ALL of Scripture. Because ALL of Scripture is important and if you misinterpret Isa. 53:4-6, you are basing your entire walk with God on a lie.

"More than that, we rejoice in our suffering, knowing that suffering produces endurance, and endurance produces character and character produces hope. And hope does not disappoint, because God's love has been poured out through the Holy Spirit who was given to us." Romans 5:3-5

So according to your Point 5 above you think this scripture is false? Or perhaps Jesus ministry on earth, was a time to demonstrate his power, and healing was one of the methods he used to do that. I believe he started his ministry by quoting this in the synogogue.

"And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up. And as was his custom, he went to the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and he stood up to read. 17 And the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was given to him. He unrolled the scroll and found the place where it was written,18 “The Spirit of the Lord is upon me,
because he has anointed me
to proclaim good news to the poor.
He has sent me to proclaim liberty to the captives
and recovering of sight to the blind,
to set at liberty those who are oppressed,
19 to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor.”

20 And he rolled up the scroll and gave it back to the attendant and sat down. And the eyes of all in the synagogue were fixed on him. 21 And he began to say to them, “Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing.” Luke 4:16-21

Jesus did heal! But his earthly ministry was never about us! It was about him confirming the fulfillment of Scripture. How narcisstic to make Jesus healing about us, instead of about the glory of God!

Then there is James, is he another one you would throw out his words to conform to the false words of this heretical preacher Joseph Prince and others like him who paint a picture of Christian living that is not true!

"Count it all joy, my brothers, when you meet trials of various kinds, 3 for you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness. 4 And let steadfastness have its full effect, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing." James 1:2-4

Your exegesis is non existent and you keep side stepping everything I write, Bruce! Or is that the automated bot that is replying? Sometimes it is hard to know!

As for healing, I have never said God does not heal. God delivered me from drinking when I was saved. I never wanted or had another drop. The only reason that is significant, was because it was an incredible confirmation of the power of God to me, not just to deliver me from alcohol, but also to show me that God was real, he had performed a miracle, and that I needed to repent and obey this incredible Lord and Saviour.

So go for the verses I posted Bruce. You know, Isa. 53:4-6 not being part of the atonement, but only about sin. And then deal with all the verses Paul, James, and the others write about they value or purpose of suffering. I bet you can't!

As for being sick and tired of those who oppose you and this evil, judgemental and condemning Word Faith/ hypergrace "opinion,"that everyone should be healed," it is a shallow and terribly immature view of God and his works. God will heal, in answer to prayer, or sometimes even not, when it is HIS WILL, not ours. And this terribly immaturity is damaging, and people are not able to grow to true maturity in God, through the power of the Holy Spirit when what these false teachers are propagating is a twisted lie from the pit of hell! Spiritual maturity is not and never has been about miracles, but rather than continuing walk with Christ,, and the continuing work where God uses everything for good, to bring us to a spiritual maturity which consists of how we view and serve God, how we obey God and how we do his will. To say nothing of the power of forgiveness, repentance and how it works to heal our hearts and minds in Jesus name!

I will keep posting. I do hope more and more people will read my post #113 above, and seriously look at the falsehood in the hypergrace movement. There is simply no nice way to say, because hypergrace is Biblically wrong, a deception, and this forum is being taken over by people who are preaching "another gospel."

Healing was NOT provided for in the atonement. If you cannot demonstrate it was, then kindly cease and desist from posting your copy and paste nonsense over and over, as if by sheer force of will, you will seduce many people here! I think most people are waking up to this lie, even without a knowledge of Greek, Hebrew, Hermeneutics and theology, simply because they know the Bible and they have walked with God a long time!

 

[oldethennew]

EPH. 5:9.
For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth

HEB. 12:11.
Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless
afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

JAMES 3:19.
And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.EPH. 5:9.
For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth

 

[Grace777x70]

I hope this was directed at me, because I certainly will answer this nonsense.

First, when we are having a Bible discussion, maybe you could comment on the specific verses I posted, and refute them exegetcially. Oh wait! You can't, so you threw out some red herring, like "opinions" and some points about Jesus, which miss the rest of the New Testament besides the gospels. Again, you might try and talk your way around Romans 5:3-5. Even in context it tells us we are going to suffer in this life. And if we don't, we are probably not serving God or walking with him. God never told us this life was going to be a cake walk! But we can have peace and joy and the other fruits of the Spirit, in spite of the trials and tribulations of life.

So please answer the actual scriptures in my last post! (Number 113)

As for the parts above that I enlarged, those are super red herring! And not true! When you claim that a studied and considered reading, especially in the original languages is an "opinion" you are just confirming that you have absolutely no understanding of either theology, Bible hermeneutics let alone the original languages.

OR if you think you can answer my post about Isa. 53:4-6 by reinterpreting it, go right ahead. I have just read over and over and over this key verses by Word Faith and hypergrace people, and yet, no one is willing to take this on.

If what I have posted is the "opinion" of a world renowned scholar, then show how he is wrong. Show how your "opinion" is right. Oh right, you don't have the knowledge of Greek or Hebrew to do that.

If a scholar has to say about the issue of healing in the atonement is far from irrevelant, but extremely important. Of course, if you ever got your head out of "Escape to Reality" web site and Internet preachers of the WF, HG variety, you might find a whole world of scholarly theology, with a much sounder base than the false HG teachers, and JP!

If the Bible is just about "opinions" and that is the label you attach to anyone who does not agree with your mistaken and dangerous theology, then that undermines ALL of Scripture. Because ALL of Scripture is important and if you misinterpret Isa. 53:4-6, you are basing your entire walk with God on a lie.

"More than that, we rejoice in our suffering, knowing that suffering produces endurance, and endurance produces character and character produces hope. And hope does not disappoint, because God's love has been poured out through the Holy Spirit who was given to us." Romans 5:3-5

So according to your Point 5 above you think this scripture is false? Or perhaps Jesus ministry on earth, was a time to demonstrate his power, and healing was one of the methods he used to do that. I believe he started his ministry by quoting this in the synogogue.

"And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up. And as was his custom, he went to the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and he stood up to read.17 And the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was given to him. He unrolled the scroll and found the place where it was written,18 “The Spirit of the Lord is upon me,
because he has anointed me
to proclaim good news to the poor.
He has sent me to proclaim liberty to the captives
and recovering of sight to the blind,
to set at liberty those who are oppressed,
19 to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor.”

20 And he rolled up the scroll and gave it back to the attendant and sat down. And the eyes of all in the synagogue were fixed on him. 21 And he began to say to them, “Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing.” Luke 4:16-21

Jesus did heal! But his earthly ministry was never about us! It was about him confirming the fulfillment of Scripture. How narcisstic to make Jesus healing about us, instead of about the glory of God!

Then there is James, is he another one you would throw out his words to conform to the false words of this heretical preacher Joseph Prince and others like him who paint a picture of Christian living that is not true!

"Count it all joy, my brothers, when you meet trials of various kinds, 3 for you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness. 4 And let steadfastness have its full effect, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing." James 1:2-4

Your exegesis is non existent and you keep side stepping everything I write, Bruce! Or is that the automated bot that is replying? Sometimes it is hard to know!

As for healing, I have never said God does not heal. God delivered me from drinking when I was saved. I never wanted or had another drop. The only reason that is significant, was because it was an incredible confirmation of the power of God to me, not just to deliver me from alcohol, but also to show me that God was real, he had performed a miracle, and that I needed to repent and obey this incredible Lord and Saviour.

So go for the verses I posted Bruce. You know, Isa. 53:4-6 not being part of the atonement, but only about sin. And then deal with all the verses Paul, James, and the others write about they value or purpose of suffering. I bet you can't!

As for being sick and tired of those who oppose you and this evil, judgemental and condemning Word Faith/ hypergrace "opinion,"that everyone should be healed," it is a shallow and terribly immature view of God and his works. God will heal, in answer to prayer, or sometimes even not, when it is HIS WILL, not ours. And this terribly immaturity is damaging, and people are not able to grow to true maturity in God, through the power of the Holy Spirit when what these false teachers are propagating is a twisted lie from the pit of hell! Spiritual maturity is not and never has been about miracles, but rather than continuing walk with Christ,, and the continuing work where God uses everything for good, to bring us to a spiritual maturity which consists of how we view and serve God, how we obey God and how we do his will. To say nothing of the power of forgiveness, repentance and how it works to heal our hearts and minds in Jesus name!

I will keep posting. I do hope more and more people will read my post #113 above, and seriously look at the falsehood in the hypergrace movement. There is simply no nice way to say, because hypergrace is Biblically wrong, a deception, and this forum is being taken over by people who are preaching "another gospel."

Healing was NOT provided for in the atonement. If you cannot demonstrate it was, then kindly cease and desist from posting your copy and paste nonsense over and over, as if by sheer force of will, you will seduce many people here! I think most people are waking up to this lie, even without a knowledge of Greek, Hebrew, Hermeneutics and theology, simply because they know the Bible and they have walked with God a long time!

Angela...I could easily refute this with scriptures but I wanted to just state my opinion on healing and not agitate up any malice that people have towards others that have a different opinion - obviously that didn't work.

So, in answer to your mocking and condescending attitude I will answer just some things because I don't want to flare things up too much with you.

Even in the Old Covenant they had healing and Hebrews says that we have a better covenant built upon better promises. In Deut. the Lord says that if you keep the covenant then none of these diseases that were on the Egyptians shall come on you for I am the Lord that heals you.

Psalm 103:2-3 (NASB)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] Bless the LORD, O my soul, And forget none of His benefits;

[SUP]3 [/SUP] Who pardons all your iniquities, Who heals all your diseases;

And you have not answered with any scriptures showing where Jesus refused to heal anyone. There are NO scriptures "proving" that God refuses to heal people that have come to Jesus while He was on this earth.

Jesus is perfect theology - not you or someone else that you can find that agrees with your opinion. Jesus came to do the will of the Father and Jesus is the exact representation of the nature of the Father. Hebrews 1L2-3

The Greek scholar that agrees with "your opinion" is just as entitled to his opinions as you are and as everyone else is as well. So your condescending attitude that you are better than other people because you have taken some Greek courses makes you superior to the rest of us is falling on deaf ears. Lot's of us here in CC have taken Greek in our pasts but that doesn't mean that we have an "inside tract" on spiritual understanding.

I can easily show that suffering for Christ doesn't mean that that sickness is part of it. There are NO scriptures saying that being sick is us suffering for Christ. IMO That's just sheer nonsense. That's like saying when we sin - then we are suffering for Christ. It's a load of religious nonsense.

Your malice has taken over you again and in your bitterness you continue to mock and slander those that believe differently than you do. People are allowed to have a different opinion than you Angela and they should be able to express that without your insults and mockings.

I'm sorry you are sick but you are not better than anyone else here in CC no matter how you try to portray your superiority over others because of "your learning". That's religious garbage and no one is going to fall for it - as you have found out in the past when people confronted you on these issues.

I can understand your malice considering how some people treated you in the past because of your sickness - but that doesn't give you the right to exhibit that malice to others now in the body of Christ that believe in healing. I am truly sorry for the way some people treated you in your past.


You are entitled to your opinion on healing and all you are doing is exhibiting your malice and slander towards others in the body of Christ that don't agree with your view of certain areas of theology.

I really have no heart to talk with you further as I don't want to agitate your malice anymore than it already is and I want to respect the fact that you are sick. Being sick does not make it right to try to lord it over other believers through mocking and insulting them because they believe something different than you do.

You are free to have your own opinion just like the rest of us here. So, please stop your malice towards others that have a different view than you do and trust the Holy Spirit in all of us to reveal the beauty of our Lord.

I always speak your name before the Father when I think of you and ask that He would bless you greatly and that He would reveal His goodness and love towards you and your family.

I bless you but I think it is best that we just leave our opinions where they are as we are allowed to have them. We can still have respect for each other without all the insults and mockings. Thank you.

 

[FlSnookman7]

I see this term "hyper grace" used a lot here. I know it is biblical (Rom 5:20) but I am beginning to think it is too big a net. I know that I am a new creation in Christ. I know that my salvation is secure. I know my spirit is entwined with the spirit of Jesus and that it is that spirit that is my true identity. Worldly riches do not mean much to me. In fact I look forward to being free of this world but I know that comes in God's time not mine. As I said before I have both been healed and seen others healed. I know I am dead to sin and that I am to have faith in God's Word when He says who I am, redeemed, cleansed, a saint and made free. I do not often "think" I am those things and I do not often "feel" i am those things but I am learning when God says one thing and I "think" or "feel" something else one of us is mistaken. I only have seen Mr. Prince's videos here. The person who 1st explained grace to me was a charis graduate so I have read many Andrew Wommack books. Some of what he says I agree with, some I do not. I read and enjoy Max Lucado's books.
I would post once again the man who is an amazing teacher and pastor and is who I would consider my main teacher here on earth.His name is John Glenn (like the astronaut). Do not let the hat and the simple speech fool you. He is a pastor, author and teacher. I would ask you Angela and Grace777 to watch it and tell me what you think.
If by hyper grace one means we are saved and redeemed and made worthy and made a new creation than by all means count me in. The saddest thing I see is when those who do not understand grace say it is a license to sin. It is in fact the exact opposite. It is freedom from sin. If you do not have time to watch the entire video, go to 21:30 and listen from there, though the whole sermon is wonderful.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENvBA-bpNpY

 

[Grace777x70]

I see this term "hyper grace" used a lot here. I know it is biblical (Rom 5:20) but I am beginning to think it is too big a net. I know that I am a new creation in Christ. I know that my salvation is secure. I know my spirit is entwined with the spirit of Jesus and that it is that spirit that is my true identity. Worldly riches do not mean much to me. In fact I look forward to being free of this world but I know that comes in God's time not mine. As I said before I have both been healed and seen others healed. I know I am dead to sin and that I am to have faith in God's Word when He says who I am, redeemed, cleansed, a saint and made free. I do not often "think" I am those things and I do not often "feel" i am those things but I am learning when God says one thing and I "think" or "feel" something else one of us is mistaken. I only have seen Mr. Prince's videos here. The person who 1st explained grace to me was a charis graduate so I have read many Andrew Wommack books. Some of what he says I agree with, some I do not. I read and enjoy Max Lucado's books.
I would post once again the man who is an amazing teacher and pastor and is who I would consider my main teacher here on earth.His name is John Glenn (like the astronaut). Do not let the hat and the simple speech fool you. He is a pastor, author and teacher. I would ask you Angela and Grace777 to watch it and tell me what you think.
If by hyper grace one means we are saved and redeemed and made worthy and made a new creation than by all means count me in. The saddest thing I see is when those who do not understand grace say it is a license to sin. It is in fact the exact opposite. It is freedom from sin. If you do not have time to watch the entire video, go to 21:30 and listen from there, though the whole sermon is wonderful.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENvBA-bpNpY

I listened from the 21:00 mark. I have listened to him before and I like his teaching. The teaching of the new creation in Christ is crucial to living the true Christian life. The fact that the old man has died with Christ on the cross is paramount to growing in Christ.

Religious people that have some traditional teachings still as a stronghold in their mind will not like him and this video and most likely call him a heretic and "hyper-grace" - ( used in a derogatory way in order to discredit the message of the grace of Christ )

Personally I believe after being accused of being "hyper-grace" without hearing that term before - after looking at it - that God's grace when seen in the light of it's real nature is in fact "hyper" and "super abounding".



I don't agree with any teacher on every subject including Prince and every other teacher but as far as the true gospel of the grace of Christ - he is right on.

I pray that I won't agree with everything I think I believe now in 2 years as I expect the Holy Spirit to reveal more of Christ to me. I love to repent when I see new truths of the love and grace of Christ for us.

 

[Grace777x70]

Here is another reason why I believe that healing is in the gospel message because of the story in Acts of Paul preaching the gospel.

I am only putting my opinions out here and everyone is entitled to have the faith that they have before the Lord and if you believe something different -

- I will not mock you or insult you because you believe differently than what I and others do. I won't call you a false teacher, a heretic, a spreader of lies or any other derogatory name, nor will I insult and slander others in the body of Christ that think differently in these areas.

I don't believe first of all that it is in the character of our Father to put diseases on people even for the religious idea that "it is to refine us".

Would we do something like that to our children? Of course not. We would be thrown in jail for that. How is our sense of "morality and goodness" any better than our loving Father? Where did we get this sense of "rightness and goodness" from? Our God's nature of course. It is instinctive within the human heart.

Our Father is even more wanting for His children to be well than we are. Would we want our own children to be sick to teach them something? Would we put a sickness on our own children? No, a thousand times No. Our Father loves us more then our mere human love does but He operates from different perspectives and principals then we do on this earth.

Jesus said "If we ask for a fish - your Father will not give you a serpent"

.........healing is definitely in the true gospel message.....as can be seen when Paul preached the gospel in Lystra. in Acts 14.

Acts 14:7-10 (NASB)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] and there they continued to preach the gospel.

[SUP]8 [/SUP] At Lystra a man was sitting who had no strength in his feet, lame from his mother's womb, who had never walked.

[SUP]9 [/SUP] This man was listening to Paul as he spoke, who, when he had fixed his gaze on him and had seen that he had faith to be made well,

[SUP]10 [/SUP] said with a loud voice, "Stand upright on your feet." And he leaped up and began to walk.

Paul was preaching the GOSPEL.... the man lame was listening to Paul and then he had faith to be made whole...where did this man get faith to be made whole in his body?

Romans 10:17 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

The man that was lame from birth heard in the preaching of the gospel of the grace of Christ that he could be made whole. He believed...Paul saw it in him and encouraged him to act on his faith.

Healing is a part of the gospel of the grace of Christ as the being born-again is.

We will suffer here on this earth because we live in a fallen world and we have an enemy. This body that we have will grow old and the spirit of man will leave the body one day.

Another aspect is that in the wilderness when the serpents came and bit the people and killed them. God made a bronze symbol and put it on a pole and told them to just look at the serpent and they would be healed. Everyone that looked at the serpent was healed. They did not have to suffer to learn anything - just look and they were healed.

God didn't say - look at the serpents...watch out for those serpents.....go to a course on how to avoid the serpents...try to name all the reasons why the serpents bit you. NO....God in His love said - Everyone that looks at the bronze serpent will live.

Jesus said John 3:14 - "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness so too must the Son of man be lifted up." This speaks of Jesus being our healer too as we look to Him on the cross - as well as taking our sins away with His blood.

Anyway...there is a lot more but again everyone is entitled to their own opinion. God bless us and let us grow in the grace and love and knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ and let's help to carry the burdens of those that are sick amongst us.

1 Peter 1:13
[SUP]13 [/SUP] Therefore, prepare your minds for action, keep sober in spirit, fix your hope completely on the grace being brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ.

 

[Angela53510]

Angela...I could easily refute this with scriptures but I wanted to just state my opinion on healing and not agitate up any malice that people have towards others that have a different opinion - obviously that didn't work.

So, in answer to your mocking and condescending attitude I will answer just some things because I don't want to flare things up too much with you.

Even in the Old Covenant they had healing and Hebrews says that we have a better covenant built upon better promises. In Deut. the Lord says that if you keep the covenant then none of these diseases that were on the Egyptians shall come on you for I am the Lord that heals you.

Psalm 103:2-3 (NASB)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] Bless the LORD, O my soul, And forget none of His benefits;

[SUP]3 [/SUP] Who pardons all your iniquities, Who heals all your diseases;

And you have not answered with any scriptures showing where Jesus refused to heal anyone. There are NO scriptures "proving" that God refuses to heal people that have come to Jesus while He was on this earth.

Jesus is perfect theology - not you or someone else that you can find that agrees with your opinion. Jesus came to do the will of the Father and Jesus is the exact representation of the nature of the Father. Hebrews 1L2-3

The Greek scholar that agrees with "your opinion"is just as entitled to his opinions as you are and as everyone else is as well. So your condescending attitude that you are better than other people because you have taken some Greek courses makes you superior to the rest of us is falling on deaf ears. Lot's of us here in CC have taken Greek in our pasts but that doesn't mean that we have an "inside tract" on spiritual understanding.

I can easily show that suffering for Christ doesn't mean that that sickness is part of it. There are NO scriptures saying that being sick is us suffering for Christ. IMO That's just sheer nonsense. That's like saying when we sin - then we are suffering for Christ. It's a load of religious nonsense.

Your malice has taken over you again and in your bitterness you continue to mock and slander those that believe differently than you do. People are allowed to have a different opinion than you Angela and they should be able to express that without your insults and mockings.

I'm sorry you are sick but you are not better than anyone else here in CC no matter how you try to portray your superiority over others because of "your learning". That's religious garbage and no one is going to fall for it - as you have found out in the past when people confronted you on these issues.

I can understand your malice considering how some people treated you in the past because of your sickness - but that doesn't give you the right to exhibit that malice to others now in the body of Christ that believe in healing. I am truly sorry for the way some people treated you in your past.


You are entitled to your opinion on healing and all you are doing is exhibiting your malice and slander towards others in the body of Christ that don't agree with your view of certain areas of theology.

I really have no heart to talk with you further as I don't want to agitate your malice anymore than it already is and I want to respect the fact that you are sick. Being sick does not make it right to try to lord it over other believers through mocking and insulting them because they believe something different than you do.

You are free to have your own opinion just like the rest of us here. So, please stop your malice towards others that have a different view than you do and trust the Holy Spirit in all of us to reveal the beauty of our Lord.

I always speak your name before the Father when I think of you and ask that He would bless you greatly and that He would reveal His goodness and love towards you and your family.

I bless you but I think it is best that we just leave our opinions where they are as we are allowed to have them. We can still have respect for each other without all the insults and mockings. Thank you.

Well, once again, this same argumenteum ad nauseam, repeating the same points the same nonsense, and trying to win by saying that I have posted an "opinion."

I find it scary and very worriesome that you keep saying that to believe something which is laid out as CERTAIN in the Bible, is an opinion. It is an attempt to misdirect people from the truth!

Because if the atonement and what it does is an "opinion," then we are all doomed to hell. And I do not use the term loosely.

For you to throw out the term 'opinion' with regards to basic theology, ie, and understanding of the atonement, is just a red herring. You are trying to divert the attention from you not being able to refute my correct reading of the Bible, which says that healing is not a part of the atonement, and teachers that teach Isa. 53:4-6 as saying it is included in the atonement are dead wrong.

So instead of saying, something like "no, healing is a part of the atonement because ....... Bible verses" instead you try and cast suspicion on the actual Bible, and that believing what the Bible actually says is some kind of "opinion."

Sorry, if you want to have an "opinion" on things like when the Israelites crossed the Red Sea, 1500 BC or 1250 BC. Based on the following archeological data, and how it corresponds to the Bible, I have no problem. These are things which simply are not known or settled at this time and we may only learn about in eternity, for sure.

But when you take a basic theological statement, like say, "Jesus is God" and then say "That's your opinion, and I have mine," then you have crossed into heresy. Which is precisely my point.

What you believe about the atonement, and what it provided for is essential theology. It is not, and never will be, an "opinion." Either the atonement, based on the verses I have cited does not included healing, only salvation, which is what I KNOW the scripture says, or it does include healing. But since you totally refuse to discuss these fundamental and basic verses, one has to conclude, as many have said, that you just continue to parrot your master's in this cult of hypergrace.


No one is saying that God does not heal - both in the NT and the OT. As well as today! BUT, it is not something we can "claim" which is the core lie of Word Faith and hypergrace. Because we can claim salvation through the cross of Christ, over and over and over! No opinion necessary!

"Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith—10 that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death,11 that by any means possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead." Phil. 3:8-11

"For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1 Cor. 1:18

"whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins." Romans 3:25

"He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world" 1 John 2:2

"this is love, not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins." 1 John 4:10

"32 He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things?33 Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies.34 Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us." Romans 8:32-34

Do you see how the cross of Christ, on which Jesus died as a propitiation for our sins is repeated over and over in the NT? Find me one verse that makes healing part of Christ's death on the cross at Calvary. You cannot, because there is not one theological statement, because Jesus did not make it so, and the apostles and the writers of the NT knew this.

Healing yes, as part of God's will! But not something than can be demanded or claimed, as part of the atonement. You do understand what atonement means, right? You understand it is a bonafide doctrine, whereas these ridiculous claims and trying to make healing fit into the atonement is a joke?

"the very heart of the Christian system lies the all-important doctrine of the Atonement. The Apostle Paul, himself an advocate of “sound doctrine,” in a condensed statement of what the Christian Church believes, said,

For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures; And that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures (I Corinthians 15:3, 4).
Though the Gospel according to Paul included a sinless and a bodily-resurrected Christ, he gives first place to the fundamental fact that “Christ died for our sins.” In spite of the fact that some religious leaders object vigorously to the Doctrine of the Atonement, that the Death of Jesus Christ was sacrificial and necessary for man’s redemption, we proceed on a sound biblical basis to pursue this great subject.
The word “atonement” in the Authorized Version of the Bible is an Old Testament term. It appears only once in the New Testament (Romans 5:11) where it is translated “reconciliation” in the Revised Version. It is not entirely fanciful to suggest the idea of at-one-ment because the word atonement is used to refer to the atoning death of Christ through which the sinner is reconciled to God, restored to His favor.
To atone for means to make amends. In the Bible atonement is associated with man’s sin. God commanded Israel to set aside one day each year, the tenth day of the seventh month, which He called “the day of atonement” (Leviticus 16:29-30; 23:27-28). The people were to bring a sin offering, an innocent animal sacrifice “whose blood was brought in to make atonement” (Leviticus 16:27). God had said, “For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul” (Leviticus 17:11) “. . . and without shedding of blood is no remission” (Hebrews 9:22)."

https://bible.org/article/atonement-christ
Here is an extensive discussion of the atonement. Notice how healing is never mentioned? Why? Because it is NOT part of the atonement. This is not an opinion but the fact of Scripture. Joseph Prince and his Word Faith forebearers are simply wrong, and do not have an exegetical leg to stand on.

Atonement Definition and Meaning - Bible Dictionary

As for me, like others here, we will continue to counter this heresy, which you and others have fallen into. I hope you see the error of your ways. This is not about me! This is about the truth of the Bible. If you want to believe falsehoods, that is your privilege. But until you can show where healing is included in the atonement this discussion is closed because you have had ample opportunity to show, from the Bible, not that Jesus healed, but that it is provided for in the atonement, and you have failed. Your teachers are wrong, and you are wrong. Period!

So no more saying that I don't believe in healing, or eternal security, or that my bible verses are opinions, when you cannot show a single one in which you can justify this whole "name it and claim it" nonsense!

 

[Angela53510]

I listened from the 21:00 mark. I have listened to him before and I like his teaching. The teaching of the new creation in Christ is crucial to living the true Christian life. The fact that the old man has died with Christ on the cross is paramount to growing in Christ.

Religious people that have some traditional teachings still as a stronghold in their mind will not like him and this video and most likely call him a heretic and "hyper-grace" - ( used in a derogatory way in order to discredit the message of the grace of Christ )

Personally I believe after being accused of being "hyper-grace" without hearing that term before - after looking at it - that God's grace when seen in the light of it's real nature is in fact "hyper" and "super abounding".

View attachment 161380

I don't agree with any teacher on every subject including Prince and every other teacher but as far as the true gospel of the grace of Christ - he is right on.

I pray that I won't agree with everything I think I believe now in 2 years as I expect the Holy Spirit to reveal more of Christ to me. I love to repent when I see new truths of the love and grace of Christ for us.

Could you just for once, stop with the copy and pastes, and the constant repeated ad nauseum of the same garbage, and be a real person and post what you believe, and back it up with Scripture.

I have been through this "hypergrace" "hyper abounding" thing over and over with you. It is found ONCE in Scripture, and it is hermeneutically unsound to make a doctrine out of one verse.

And for heaven's sake, learn a bit about how to interpret the Bible, and how to understand it, and not this constant repetition of the same stuff, the same paragraphs even, and learn what the Bible says, instead of these Word Faith/hypergrace deceivers say!

 

[Grace777x70]

Could you just for once, stop with the copy and pastes, and the constant repeated ad nauseum of the same garbage, and be a real person and post what you believe, and back it up with Scripture.

I have been through this "hypergrace" "hyper abounding" thing over and over with you. It is found ONCE in Scripture, and it is hermeneutically unsound to make a doctrine out of one verse.

And for heaven's sake, learn a bit about how to interpret the Bible, and how to understand it, and not this constant repetition of the same stuff, the same paragraphs even, and learn what the Bible says, instead of these Word Faith/hypergrace deceivers say!

Angela, you are entitled to your opinion and your malice towards me and others that believe that God's grace is really super abundant and it is indeed is "hyper" or bountiful or whatever other term one wants to use to describe God's amazing grace - your malice is not going to stop us from declaring the wonderfulness of what Christ has done for us.

I can understand why some might not like that meme because they want to use the term "hyper-grace" to disparage what is being said about the super-abundance of God's grace towards us that believe.

Instead of commenting on what the video said as FlSnookman7 asked - you just wanted to comment on a meme and mock me to say for me to be a real person and post what I believe. Well, I do post believe what I believe and I am entitled to it despite your repeated attempts to malign me and others that view God's grace differently then you do.. Even if you call it heresy because it disagrees with your opinions.

We believe in living a holy dedicated life to the Lord Jesus Christ. We believe His blood was shed for all our sins. We believe Jesus is Lord and sits at the right hand of the Father. We believe in the goodness and love of our Lord for us. We believe He is a good, good loving Father.

You can continue to malign me and others that believe in God's abundant grace and call it heresy if you want. It is just showing your malice and bitterness towards those that believe differently. I really wish you would stop this behavior as it is only going to affect you negatively and you'll end up getting sicker.

I do not want you to get sicker. I could wish to have your disease put on me so that you could be free of it - if it were possible. I encourage you to allow others to have a different view of God's wonderful grace and stop maligning them and start to show respect for each other without the insults and derogatory comments.

God's grace towards us because of His great love is truly amazing.

 

[PeterJens]

The believer in christ believes


Conviction of sin - I am a sinner and need to sort things out, liable to judgement -ref(1)
Repentance - I am a sinner who wishes to stop sinning - ref(2)(3)
Faith - I believe in Jesus and the cross I can find forgiveness - ref(4)
Confession - I publicly confess my sin and my faith - ref(4)
Cleansing - The blood washes me clean and empowers me to walk in righteousness -ref(5)
Obedience - Love springs forward in my heart as I start to learn to love all - ref(6)
Conscience - My conscience is a barometer of how I am doing - ref (7)
Purity - We walk in Holiness as the redeemed people of God - ref (8)
Communion - We become one in mind with Christ - ref(9)(10)(11)


(1) rom 3:23 (2) Ezk 18:21 (3) Acts 2:38 (4) Rom 10:9 (5) Heb 9:14 (6) 2 John 1:6
(7) 2 Cor 1:12 (8) 2 Cor 7:1 (9) Col 3:16 (10) 1 cor 6:17 (11) Phil 2:5


Look up the verses to check it out.

 

[gb9]

The believer in christ believes


Conviction of sin - I am a sinner and need to sort things out, liable to judgement -ref(1)
Repentance - I am a sinner who wishes to stop sinning - ref(2)(3)
Faith - I believe in Jesus and the cross I can find forgiveness - ref(4)
Confession - I publicly confess my sin and my faith - ref(4)
Cleansing - The blood washes me clean and empowers me to walk in righteousness -ref(5)
Obedience - Love springs forward in my heart as I start to learn to love all - ref(6)
Conscience - My conscience is a barometer of how I am doing - ref (7)
Purity - We walk in Holiness as the redeemed people of God - ref (8)
Communion - We become one in mind with Christ - ref(9)(10)(11)


(1) rom 3:23 (2) Ezk 18:21 (3) Acts 2:38 (4) Rom 10:9 (5) Heb 9:14 (6) 2 John 1:6
(7) 2 Cor 1:12 (8) 2 Cor 7:1 (9) Col 3:16 (10) 1 cor 6:17 (11) Phil 2:5


Look up the verses to check it out.

this is exactly what I mean when I say " using the Bible to make theology instead of using the Bible AS theology"

this stupid list is man-made false religion at its " finest " .

 

[PeterJens]

Angela, you are entitled to your opinion and your malice towards me

Here is a man who Angela used to agree with theologically.
Angela does not have malice but is convinced theological and from a real exergesis of scripture
HG is heretical.

Now to answer such questions you have to actually address her points.
If you cannot then she is right, 100%.

And dear reader, if these people had any integrity or truth in them, they would agree Angela
has a valid point. But we are talking her blind faith, and ex-legalists who dream of being in
faith like in their childhood, yet without the hyprocracy and guilt.

So they are 100% compromised and truth no longer matters, only the appearance of it.

Now if you could convince me of being an atheist, hindu, muslim etc I would become one.
The reason is I am interested in truth, integrity, honesty and openness.

It is why I love Jesus, He is the same. He said "I am the way, the truth and the life"

That is a big claim, and if you want to follow the Lord, you have to put your intellect, your
heart and your soul on the line. That is if you truly follow Him. From what I am reading on
cc a good number have no clue who he really is in comparison to where they are.

Now I say this as someone who has put everything on the line and learnt God catches you,
that what seems to be walking into the world or humanity is actually walking closer to Him.

God makes us more human and real, and grounds us like nothing else in life can.
It is also why I laugh at Grace777 the human mind cannot conceive the spiritual.

Sounds like he is talking something really profound, nope, just his own delusion which he has
thoroughly brainwashed himself into.

 

[PeterJens]

this is exactly what I mean when I say " using the Bible to make theology instead of using the Bible AS theology"
this stupid list is man-made false religion at its " finest " .

Well at least you are open about it.
This list is not stupid, or you are calling God stupid.

But if a wicked person turns away from all the sins they have committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, that person will surely live; they will not die. None of the offenses they have committed will be remembered against them. Because of the righteous things they have done, they will live.
Repent Ezk 18:21

Please read the above verse. This is God speaking through Ezkiel.

Now if you want to leave the faith and become apostate, that is your choice, but it reads 100%
like this is what you are doing.

 

[gb9]

God speaking with Ezkiel has nothing to do with salvation Through Belief in Christ. because that is what saves a person, not list keeping. and no, I am not calling God stupid. I am calling using the Bible to make lists stupid. and wrong.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

How did this go from a "cleansing" thread to a "healing" thread.

The gospel is about how one is cleansed by Gods mercy, not works, and spiritual healing of a dead soul. Not about healing physical ailments, that is another topic altogether. Lets get back on topic please.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

God speaking with Ezkiel has nothing to do with salvation Through Belief in Christ. because that is what saves a person, not list keeping. and no, I am not calling God stupid. I am calling using the Bible to make lists stupid. and wrong.

Lawyers needs lists, They need to have a list of rules in which they can look at and say, Yes, I am a good and righteous person. So God will accept me. and then use that list to judge others.. who do agree that their list is a means to righteousness and salvation.

 

[PeterJens]

this is exactly what I mean when I say " using the Bible to make theology instead of using the Bible AS theology"
this stupid list is man-made false religion at its " finest " .

The spirit you are speaking in is heretical.
The reason I made the list was to bring out this heresy into the open.

Each point is very important, it has massive theological significance. I write the list
because it comes out of my life, and out of scripture as a guide.

It condences the principles of Jesus, Paul, Peter, John etc.
But it is merely a summary, from which much more grows and develops.

The key door that each need to open is the door of things they care about, people they care
about, and their hopes for the future.

When you start to bring Jesus into this place things change, and it is no longer a faith with ideas
and ceremonies but Jesus walking with you in real life.

Jesus walked into my life by showing me how scared I was to change and how little I wanted
to take risks and start to determine where I was going. He wanted to prod me, and shake me
up to start to explore the difference between my choices and His intentions.

 

[PeterJens]

Lawyers needs lists

Everyone needs lists. Surgeons doing life saving operations need lists to make sure they do not
forget to do something, because people have died because they missed a point on a list.

Pilots need lists to make sure when they take off and land they do all the right things and
everything is working properly.

If you live a busy life, lists are the anchor that makes things work.

But obviously EG you do not know the power of lists, except that it shows up HG for the
heresy it actually is. Funny how it is this simple, lol.

 

[Bookends]

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[TD="width: 100%"]Matthew 8:3
Then Jesus put out His hand and touched him, saying, “I am willing; be cleansed.” Immediately his leprosy was cleansed.[/TD]
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[TD="colspan: 3, align: left"]Most of us are familiar with the healing of the leper in Matthew 8. It is a beautiful account of God’s willingness to touch and heal the sick, no matter how unclean they may be. Whenever we doubt God’s willingness to heal us, we should listen to the words of Jesus again: “I am willing; be cleansed.” He is the same yesterday, today and forever!

Since the Bible is clear about God’s willingness to heal, why do we still have problems with our health? Why do we still experience symptoms in our bodies?

I believe that the answer is found in what Jesus told the leper to do next. He told him to go and show himself to the priest. (Matthew 8:4) This was the law then for lepers who were healed. (Leviticus 14:2–3) And he was to hear the priest pronounce the word “clean” over him. (Leviticus 14:7)

You see, as believers, when we received Jesus, His blood cleansed us from sin as well as sickness. (Isaiah 53:4–5) But we keep hearing people pronounce sin, sickness, poverty and death over us. We keep hearing people tell us that we are unclean, undeserving, poor, weak, and that it is only natural that we grow old and sickly, and die.

God is waiting for a priesthood that will rise up and pronounce His people clean!
“But Pastor Prince, where can I find such priests?”

Who are the priests today? You and I! In fact, we have more authority to pronounce good things than the Levitical priests of the Old Testament. They were just priests. But we are king-priests by the blood of Jesus! (Revelation 1:5–6) Where the word of the king is, there is power. (Ecclesiastes 8:4) And by the word of a priest, every controversy and every assault shall be settled. (Deuteronomy 21:5)

Beloved, God has cleansed you, so pronounce yourself clean! Right now, put your hand on your heart and pronounce good things over yourself. Say, “I pronounce myself clean, righteous, healed, whole and abundantly supplied by the blood of Jesus!” By your word as a king-priest, every assault against you shall be settled![/TD]
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Destined To Reign Devotional

I believe God does want to heal us, for the most part. But sometimes He can't because of our lack of faith (not grace) or our belief that He just won't. That said, another reason why He doesn't heal is because we have un-forgiven sin in our lives, or un-forgiveness towards others. Another reason, He simply wants some of us to live with an infirmity so that other's can see His grace and Apostle Paul is great example of this, three times he prayed for God to take away the thorn in His side. Eventual we will be healed, both physically and spiritual, so our prayers will be answered. I believe our soul health effects our physical health. And I must admit, the Lord has His work cut out for me, for I need a lot of work.