We are not saved by Grace/Faith alone, and I can prove it.
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Well David, let me ask you, are you saved? And if yes, how long have you been saved?
Next question: Have you sinned since the time you got saved???
Salvation is a free gift. God gave us the commandments as a Law for us to obey for our own good on this earth. Furthermore, the Law, the Ten Commandments were a schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ (Gal. 3:24-25).
Are getting to Heaven is not based on us following the Law though.
Romans 3:27
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
[SUP]27 [/SUP]Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
Galatians 2:21
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
[SUP]21 [/SUP]I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
Titus 3:4-8
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP]But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, [SUP]5 [/SUP]not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; [SUP]6 [/SUP]which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; [SUP]7 [/SUP]that being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. [SUP]8 [/SUP]This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.
Galatians 3:11
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
[SUP]11 [/SUP]But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
The goats mentioned in Matthew 25:31-46 are not Christians. The goats are Gentile nations made up of individuals which did not help out Israel (Christ's brethren) during the time of Jacob's trouble.
The goats are also made up of individuals who took the mark of the beast.
There are no Christians in the time of Jacob's trouble. The Body of Christ is removed from off of the Earth before the time of Daniel's 70th week starts.
One other thing David, Matthew 25 is written Doctrinally to Israel. It is not written doctrinally to Born again Christians.
In this Dispensation; if one wants to go to Heaven, then they need to simply believe on the Lord Jesus Christ for their salvation. They need to trust Christ and Him only to get them to Heaven. The Bible teaches that salvation in this Dispensation is by greace through faith alone.
Once that person is saved, he is regenerated, and he is a new creature in Christ Jesus (2 Cor. 5:17 & Gal. 6:15).
No it is not.
It is Bible Doctrine.
David, again, Matthew 25 is pointed Doctrinally at Jews in the time of Jacob's trouble (7 year tribulation period).
There will not be one Christian in the time of Jacob's trouble. The Body of Christ is caught up. Every true born again Christian will be raptured and will meet the Lord in the air (1 Thess. 4:16-18) prior to the beginning of Daniel's 70th week.
No it does not go against those Scriptures.
The only thing it goes against is the self rightoues man who is counting on his good works to save him instead of the blood of Jesus Christ.
No Christian will ever go to Hell. No Christian can ever lose his salvation. We Christians do good works because we are saved. Not to stay saved. Our good works could not keep us saved, no matter how many good works we did. It is the power of the Lord that keeps us saved (1 Peter 1:5).
Once again; Matthew 25 is not talking about Christians.
As a matter of fact; Matthew 25 is doctrinally in the Old Testament. Which is just another reason why it is pointed doctrinally at Jews. And not Christians.
Matthew 25:31-46 shows that salvation in the time of Jacob's trouble will be by faith AND works. If one wants to be given entrance into the Millennial Kingdom, he must endure unto the end ( Matt. 24:13). And he does that by keeping the faith of Jesus AND the commandments of God (Rev. 14:9-12). One of the commandments being that he cannot at all take the mark of the beast, because if he does, he forfeits his salvation.
Works are important. Our works will be judged, revealed and tried by fire at the Judgement Seat of Christ (1 Cor. 3:11-15).
But our works in this dispensation have no part in our salvation.
Our works for the Lord here on this earth and the motivation behind our service to the Lord be a factor in our level of rewards at the Judgment Seat of Christ (Again, see 1 Cor. 3:11-15). And also 2 Cor. 5:10.
Galatians 1:6-9
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP]I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: [SUP]7 [/SUP]which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. [SUP]8 [/SUP]But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. [SUP]9 [/SUP]As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
The curse is for any man that preaches any other gospel other than the Gospel which was delivered unto Paul (Gal. 1:11-13).
The Gospel that every preacher should be preaching in this Dispensation (the Church Age), is the Gospel of the grace of God (Acts 20:24). Which is also called the Gospel of the death, burial and resurrection (1 Cor. 15:1-6).
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I think time is unnecessary but yes I am a Christian Of course I still sin we all do, I'd be a liar if I said I didn't sin. However as for when I was saved I think it's unnecessary to say when I became a Christian even though it was 2 years ago but the reasoning is is because I can always fail and fall away if I'm not careful. The Bible warns us about that in many places.
Okay so this is going to take a while. Your first batch of quotes I agree with. No need to say anything, the Bible says it all on its own. I am wrong for that part.
As for your opinion on Matthew 25 I disagree with you. It is your perspective that it is said in that way, and I quoted Mark 16:16-18 to show they were real Christians. If you can show with Bible quotes that you are right, I will believe you like your quotes on the first point. However, this comment is just your opinion and you have not showed any proof as of yet.
As for part 3, yes I agree. Your first point agrees with your perspective. I do conclude though good works are needed though. Good works are in a way obiding by treating thy neighbours as thyself. If you aren't doing any good works, then it shows you are not abiding by things Jesus taught us to do. That is my perspective on that but we can talk about this more since we have different opinions.
Once again on Matthew 25 I disagree with you. If you can post scripture that explains your point I would happily admit to my wrong perspective. As for now, I disagree with you.
As for my point on the book of life, etc. I disagree with you. However, let me reiterate my point better because I did not post it correctly or in a wording that would be understood properly. What I am saying is that you can't just have faith in Jesus, believe he died for our sins, and then go and kill people. You show your love and obedience for God by obeying his laws and doing good works (the good works part is in James I believe somewhere, I'd have to take time and find it I am not 100% where it is in the NT).
On the part on Mark 16:16-18 was well as Matthew 25:31-46, I disagree with you again. There are many stories in the Bible of people who had accepted God, but then failed. Let me cite a few aand if you want I can go grab the Bible verses for ya:
- Saul. He had the spirit of God in him yet failed and went against God
- The people in Jesus' parable. The people who accepted the Word of God but when they went through troubles/tribulation/tough times they gave up faith.
- A person in the NT who was with one of the apostles. I forget the example I need to re-watch a video of a pastor who debunks Calvinism to find it. It'll take me about 20 mins but I can get it. Basically a guy was with one of the apostles who was with Christ but fell.
Also what you are talking about Christians can never lose their Salvation is Calvinistic doctrine. If people were once saved always saved, then that means they have no free will. There are people in the Bible who I can cite who have fallen who were believers in Christ and correlated with Mark 16:16-18's definition of true Christians so to speak. Therefore, Once you are a saved always saved is wrong. I can re-post my entire post on another thread about this, but thats if you want to debate it. OR I can post the video of the pastor who completely debunks it. It's your choice.
Exactly. I agree with you. Just because I fast all the time and someone else doesnt, doesnt mean Im any better then him (im referring to the parable Jesus spoke of). What I am saying though, is if you don't do any works and think you're going to Heaven its not true. Im not saying you need say 100 pounds worth of works to get into Heaven. What Im saying is, is that if there is the opportunity to help someone and do God's work and you never do it, then you aren't being Christian. I forget the Bible quote, but I can find it [referring to the one earlier] where it basically says that if you are a Christian you will do good deeds not to save yourself but because you love God and love people. How can you love your neighbours and then just do nothing to help them? Or say know people are going to go to hell for sodomy yet never warn them? See my point?
On the last point, yep I agree with you. Its the Gospel of Christ, the same that we are reading. It basically means don't pervert what Jesus taught, thats all. [for example] If Jesus taught x and you teach y, then you will be accursed.
H
Hi DavidLOVESsnow, I love snow from the warn, hot Philippines, not from New York anymore. So glad to be retired and ministering in Philippines. At 70 yrs old I can live with out snow. I was widowed in 07 and came here and remarried and stayed. Having a great ministry among our urban poor village in Davao City. But I do agree with your statement. and would add that salvation is not by grace alone, by faith alone in Christ alone. The Bible requires Repentance, trusting Christ alone and good works to be saved. This is only possible for a sinner by the new birth of God. Please read John 3:16-21. faith in Jesus will not save unless we are doers of good deeds. as v.21 says. the truth of the Bible is that a sinner must first be Born of God then he can repent ,trust and obey Jesus and have eternal life. Man is dead, only God's power can give spiritual life to the spiritually dead sinner. Calvinism is a logical system but is not always true to scriptures. Armineism is a logical system but not always true to the scriptures. ONLY go by the Bible. Love to all, Hoffco
Thank you for your understanding. I completely agree with what you are saying.
On topic of Armineism, I need to study it for debtes ( I have already studied Calvinism a bit ). I try to get understanding of these things in order to debate people properly.
As for the snow, you're from the Philippines lol -_-. I work with fillipinas (I think thats how you spell it) at work and they all don't like the snow. What can I say? I was raised around snow
.
Lastly, congrats on being a pastor. I would like to be a pastor, but I'm sticking to accounting instead :/.
On topic of Armineism, I need to study it for debtes ( I have already studied Calvinism a bit ). I try to get understanding of these things in order to debate people properly.
As for the snow, you're from the Philippines lol -_-. I work with fillipinas (I think thats how you spell it) at work and they all don't like the snow. What can I say? I was raised around snow
.Lastly, congrats on being a pastor. I would like to be a pastor, but I'm sticking to accounting instead :/.
hey there
Calvinism and arminianism are two old… really old and legitimate theological interpretation, both strongly based on biblical foundation.. and both recognized long time ago as right and legitimate… so we discussing, which of two of them is wrong or right …it is silly thing to do that… and quite naïve, but in my time I did that too, because it is just so tempting…
But just don't forget, that there already were better, smarter, wiser men than us here, actual theologian’s who studied this matter long time (even life time) period and they came to conclusion, that both directions of interpretation is biblical based and therefore right …so... let just ...let people.. I mean let people choose they way
I mean ..hm..of course, it is possible that here in this site are actually very smart theologians who studied this and came with new perspective, and if so, I really deeply apologize to them… but I think, that Europe would already knew about it, if that was the case …
Let’s not forget, that most of interpretations are originated from Europe (here is the cradle of christianity and theology as well)
So don’t fight about what is already captured.. what you can do, you can provide bible verses to defend your position, it's always fun (I mean interesting) to watch that kind of battle (for me)
Sorry for en, hope you understand my point
Be blessed
Calvinism and arminianism are two old… really old and legitimate theological interpretation, both strongly based on biblical foundation.. and both recognized long time ago as right and legitimate… so we discussing, which of two of them is wrong or right …it is silly thing to do that… and quite naïve, but in my time I did that too, because it is just so tempting…
But just don't forget, that there already were better, smarter, wiser men than us here, actual theologian’s who studied this matter long time (even life time) period and they came to conclusion, that both directions of interpretation is biblical based and therefore right …so... let just ...let people.. I mean let people choose they way
I mean ..hm..of course, it is possible that here in this site are actually very smart theologians who studied this and came with new perspective, and if so, I really deeply apologize to them… but I think, that Europe would already knew about it, if that was the case …
Let’s not forget, that most of interpretations are originated from Europe (here is the cradle of christianity and theology as well)
So don’t fight about what is already captured.. what you can do, you can provide bible verses to defend your position, it's always fun (I mean interesting) to watch that kind of battle (for me)
Sorry for en, hope you understand my point
Be blessed
I don't know if we can make it any clearer that works do not save you, keep, or make you lose (for the lack thereof) salvation. What importance do works serve for the NT believer? Again, it isn't a matter of salvation, that has been taken care of, but a matter of reward when we are judged on Jesus' mercy seat (as it were).
From a site: But is that what James 2 is talking about? No, not even close. The context tells us what we are saved, or delivered from. Look at James 2:12-13. So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty. For judgment is without mercy to the one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment.These verses are talking about some sort of judgment that believers will face. Similarly, James 3:1 brings out the same concept of judgment for Christian teachers.My brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment.So you see, James brackets the passage we are considering with this theme of a judgment that Christians will face. And it apparently is a judgment based on our works. There is only one judgment of this sort in the Bible. In fact, though there are several different times and forms of judgment in the Bible, the only one Christians will face is the judgment seat of Christ, sometimes called the Bema.
The site goes on to say: And it is what James has in mind right here. He says that when we stand before the judgment seat of Christ, although we will have the wonderful gift of eternal life, the issue that day will be what you did in this life with the gifts and talents and abilities God gave you. “In that day,” James says, “faith alone will not profit.” These new Christians have asked, “What role does works play?” and James has answered, “Before the judgment seat of Christ, it is works that will be profitable.”
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In other words, faith without works is dead (useless) in this scenario. Faith is not what will be determining your reward (your salvation yes, not rewards in heaven) but your works will. Are works important? You better believe it! Will they save you? You better not believe it! (lol) Will they give you a reward once saved in heaven? Correct. So if I don't do works, I can still be saved, but my rewards will be less (or possibly restricted)? Yes, but who wants to spend eternity with less rewards? As some say, "Its your prerogative."
The whole point of James is not to speak of "faith without works is dead" in the sense of salvation, but faith being of no profit for a judgement based upon works (a reward). Hence this verse.
James 2:26. For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
A body without a spirit is dead (useless) and faith without works is dead (useless), but realize that the body, just as the faith, isn't non-existent. It's just useless, and for what James is referring to, useless in the judgement of how we are to be rewarded.
From a site: But is that what James 2 is talking about? No, not even close. The context tells us what we are saved, or delivered from. Look at James 2:12-13. So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty. For judgment is without mercy to the one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment.These verses are talking about some sort of judgment that believers will face. Similarly, James 3:1 brings out the same concept of judgment for Christian teachers.My brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment.So you see, James brackets the passage we are considering with this theme of a judgment that Christians will face. And it apparently is a judgment based on our works. There is only one judgment of this sort in the Bible. In fact, though there are several different times and forms of judgment in the Bible, the only one Christians will face is the judgment seat of Christ, sometimes called the Bema.
The site goes on to say: And it is what James has in mind right here. He says that when we stand before the judgment seat of Christ, although we will have the wonderful gift of eternal life, the issue that day will be what you did in this life with the gifts and talents and abilities God gave you. “In that day,” James says, “faith alone will not profit.” These new Christians have asked, “What role does works play?” and James has answered, “Before the judgment seat of Christ, it is works that will be profitable.”
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In other words, faith without works is dead (useless) in this scenario. Faith is not what will be determining your reward (your salvation yes, not rewards in heaven) but your works will. Are works important? You better believe it! Will they save you? You better not believe it! (lol) Will they give you a reward once saved in heaven? Correct. So if I don't do works, I can still be saved, but my rewards will be less (or possibly restricted)? Yes, but who wants to spend eternity with less rewards? As some say, "Its your prerogative."
The whole point of James is not to speak of "faith without works is dead" in the sense of salvation, but faith being of no profit for a judgement based upon works (a reward). Hence this verse.
James 2:26. For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
A body without a spirit is dead (useless) and faith without works is dead (useless), but realize that the body, just as the faith, isn't non-existent. It's just useless, and for what James is referring to, useless in the judgement of how we are to be rewarded.
Sorry for the double post, but this verse helps in you clearly seeing what I posted above.
1 Corinthians 3:12-15
King James Version (KJV)
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
Notice verse 15, and see that if our works are burned, he shall suffer loss, but he himself shall be saved; yet so by fire. He is STILL saved, however, read verse 14, it says that if any work still abides (or stands) "he shall receive a reward" Salvation isn't what is at risk here, your rewards are. Remember, our righteousness is not based on works, but faith, just as with Abraham. Salvation is a gift, based upon grace. That grace being Jesus Christ and what He has done for you on the cross (death, burial, and resurrection). Once we accept Christ, the Word says this
Hebrews 12:2
New King James Version (NKJV)
2 looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
Our salvation is completely dependent upon Christ, not one ounce of effort on our part. That is radical grace and that is the Gospel. This is why the Word also says
Hebrews 4:10-11
King James Version (KJV)
10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
Religion is based upon works, its always working to attain something or outweigh the good with the bad, but the difference between religion and Christianity, as I read on one site, is grace. Cease from all and any effort as God did not do 99% and leave you with 1% because He wanted to be reconciled to you, so He didnt leave anything in your hands. He knew humanity would fail, and He didnt want to leave that possibility, because He loves you with an everlasting love. Do not people see that since the creation of the world and Adam and Eve's fall, that the whole story of the bible is reconciliation? To be once united again, in the presence of God? Do you see the love story?
John 3:16
King James Version (KJV)
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
1 Corinthians 3:12-15
King James Version (KJV)
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
Notice verse 15, and see that if our works are burned, he shall suffer loss, but he himself shall be saved; yet so by fire. He is STILL saved, however, read verse 14, it says that if any work still abides (or stands) "he shall receive a reward" Salvation isn't what is at risk here, your rewards are. Remember, our righteousness is not based on works, but faith, just as with Abraham. Salvation is a gift, based upon grace. That grace being Jesus Christ and what He has done for you on the cross (death, burial, and resurrection). Once we accept Christ, the Word says this
Hebrews 12:2
New King James Version (NKJV)
2 looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
Our salvation is completely dependent upon Christ, not one ounce of effort on our part. That is radical grace and that is the Gospel. This is why the Word also says
Hebrews 4:10-11
King James Version (KJV)
10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
Religion is based upon works, its always working to attain something or outweigh the good with the bad, but the difference between religion and Christianity, as I read on one site, is grace. Cease from all and any effort as God did not do 99% and leave you with 1% because He wanted to be reconciled to you, so He didnt leave anything in your hands. He knew humanity would fail, and He didnt want to leave that possibility, because He loves you with an everlasting love. Do not people see that since the creation of the world and Adam and Eve's fall, that the whole story of the bible is reconciliation? To be once united again, in the presence of God? Do you see the love story?
John 3:16
King James Version (KJV)
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
C
The faith of the godly patriarch Abraham moved him to action. As “the father of all those having faith,” he was “declared righteous by works after he had offered up Isaac his son upon the altar.” (Romans 4:11, 12; Genesis 22:1-14) What if Abraham had lacked faith that God could resurrect Isaac and fulfill His promise of a seed through him? Then Abraham would never have tried to offer up his son. (Hebrews 11:19) It was by Abraham’s obedient works that “his faith was perfected,” or made complete. Thereby, “the scripture [Genesis 15:6] was fulfilled which says: ‘Abraham put faith in God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.’” Abraham’s works in trying to offer up Isaac confirmed God’s earlier pronouncement that Abraham was righteous. By works of faith, he showed his love for God and came to be called “God’s friend.” Our “walk with God” should be a natural consequence of our “talk with God”. Hebrews 11:1-12:3 is a history of faith that was evident by works. The Apostle Paul’s analogy of a runner in a race states at 1 Corinthians 9:24-27 “24 Do you not know that the runners in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win it. 25 Now everyone competing in a contest exercises self-control in all things. Of course, they do it to receive a crown that can perish, but we, one that does not perish. 26 Therefore, the way I am running is not aimlessly; the way I am aiming my blows is so as not to be striking the air; 27 but I pummel my body and lead it as a slave, so that after I have preached to others, I myself should not become disapproved somehow. This is not a casual, inconsequential, take it or leave it endeavor!!! This is ardent, unyielding , adherence to the person and purpose of God! He is so worthy of it!! (Revelations 4:11)
E
Makes no sense how? Faith WILL produce work, They are not separate. Mere belief will not show TRUE work, only a self centered work which may appear to people around to be works of faith, yet are nor, Or on the downside. no works whatsoever, (As James spoke of)
Faith (full assurance in the work and word of God) Saves. If the faith is real, work will be produced. But it is not the work which may say of, we were already saved before we did any work. Work only (as James puts it) proves to ourselves that our faith was real, and not just mere belief.
In the grand scheme of things.
1. We hear the gospel
2. We either trust it and repent, or do not.
3. If we trust, We say Yes God, I want your gift of eternal life. I know I do not deserve it. But you have shown me I am a sinner and worthy of condemnation. And your my only hope. I am placing my eternity in your hands.
4. Doing this, We are justified, and renewed (based on the washing of renewal of the HS.) and thus delcared cleansed and freed from the penalty of sin.
5. Because of the faith (true) and the HS who is now in us, We PRODUCE WORK.
Work can not be produced in someone who is not already saved, they have no power to do any work in the way God demands, Any work they might do is self motivated, whether they believe it or not. This is just the fact spoken of in Scripture.
1. In Scripture, the body (greek word sarx) is the flesh, The flesh is the old nature. It is self willed, and self motivated, And yes sin comes out of the body.
2. Jesus removes the penalty of sin. That is what our sickness is, and what keeps us from having a relationship with God. We are saved because this penatly is removed.
3. The spirit is alive, because of God. The body is dead, because of sin. That why the body still gets sick. Why it still dies. Why (in the fleshly nature) we still sin.
Sanctification is separate from justification. Justification is a one time event, Sanctification is an ongoing event which will not be perfect (which would be glorification) until these bodies of sin are destroyed, and we are ressurected to an eternal state,
1. You can not continually repent, This makes no sense. You can not continue to change your mind about the same sin over and over. Religion has twisted the meaning of this word.
2. Yes we must continually look forward. And thank God for forgiving us, Because we still faill, If we do not move forward. We aill not become very sanctified and remain babes in Christ.
3. Salvation is a one time deal. To say otherwise is to ignore the word of God and make mans works a part of salvation. You can not have it both ways, You can not say you are not working to earn it., Then say we must continue to work (repent) to be saved.
lol. Ok. Maybe you have not studied very much? or actually looked at what the word means?
Justification: ..."dikaiosune" is the Greek word which was often used in the greek legal system. When a person was brought before a judge, He was either found guilty of his crime, Or he was found innocent of the crime, if he was found innocent (or aquited) of wrongdoing, he was said to be justified (dikaisune) or found innocent, or righteous of all things brought against him in the court of law.
Sorry my friend, Justification is a legal term. it is not my way of looking at things. It is what the term really means.
Scripture says we are Justified (dikaisune) which is translated "righteous" and "justified" many times in the in the New Testament and it means "acquitted" ( justified ) to "vindicate," or "to be made righteous." We are justified (acquitted from the punishment of sin) and declared righteous because of God who is in us. (sonship) However as man in the flesh we are still an unrighteous being still falling from time to time in sin (fellowship).
Scripture does not support this false accusation. We are guilty. We have things written against us (called the law) and because of this written ordinance against us, We are found guilty, and God justice must bring about judgment (death)
God removed this judgment from us. It IS a judical thing. Paul even thought so..
Colossians 2:14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.
Redemption is even a legal term. Redemption implys ones guilt and punishment was paid.
Paul even agrees with this.
rom 3:24..being justified ( greek dikaiosumenoi ) freely by the grace of God through the redemption in Christ. Jesus.
Our freedom of guilt in God's court of law was paid for (redeemed) by th eblood of Christ. What do you think Christ did on the cross??
Paul does not just speak of law. That is a twisting of things done by many.
Paul sais not by works of righteousness which we have done (this is any good deed. Not just the law) we were saved (justified) by the washing and renewal of the HS.
Not true.
Paul says we HAVE BEEN (past tense) Justified. He does not say we are being (an ongoing process) justified. You need to study more. Your church has given you faulty information
paul is not talking about justification. He is talking about Christian ministry (in this case, his gift as an apostle) Of course it takes work. LOTS OF WORK. MINISTRY is impossible for us. We have to work hard and TOTALLY RELY ON GOD who gives us the strength, or we will falter and fail
But if your NOT SAVED, BORN OF GOD, JUSTIFIED, WASHED, BORN AGAIN, AND GIVEN THE SPIRIT, You CAN NOT DO Christian ministry.
You will get no gift of the HS or do not work for God unless your saved ifrst.
This is sanctification NOT JUSTIFICATION. Your trying to mix the two. THEY CAN NOT BE MIXED., THEY ARE TOTALLY DIFFERENT THINGS
We would be fools not to suffer with Christ. Would we not? WHo want to be like the corinthian church, and babes, which need fed milk, Instead of mature believers who is abe to teach others? and be used by God, And recieve rewarded by God, and not see all our works burnt as wood Hay and straw?
Not me.
But again, If we are not JUSTIFIED FIRST. Non of this will amount to a hill of beend, It will all be self righteousness which will be rejected by God
lol. I am sanctified (set apart which is what the word actually means) the moment I am justified by the redemption in Christ (funny you forgot to see that) I am no longer in the world, but in Christ. I am no longer dead in sin, But I am alive in Christ, Which makes me sanctified (set apart) from the world.
Look at what the word actually means then interpret it in that way.
I am also sanctifying myself (setting myself apart) from the world as I grow in Christ.
You have to realise the word has two differing affects. One is done BY GOD (as in the passages you showed) Ancd one which must be done by us (in the previous passages you showed)
If you do not understand the difference, You will never understand the gospel
Again a seriously flawed interpretatin.
Work out YOUR salvation. It is something YOU ALREADY POSSES. not something your trying to GET..
Again, This is speaking of spiritual growth, and your ability to be used by God. NOT HOW TO GET SAVED
lol. I already have my stamp. It is called the HS
What do you think the "seal" of eph 1: 13- 14 means? it was the stamp of the king, and a message delivered, To gauantee what was inside the note was carried out.
What is promised? Eternal life, Salvation.
Eph 1: 13 - 14 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.
That is my stamp. My seal. My gaurantee..
Your trying to work out your own stamp. Which again, will be rejected. And again proves you are trying to work to earn salvation, even though you continue to deny it.
I nogtice just-me liked this.
and he wonders why people thinks he believes in a works based salvation. WOW
Faith (full assurance in the work and word of God) Saves. If the faith is real, work will be produced. But it is not the work which may say of, we were already saved before we did any work. Work only (as James puts it) proves to ourselves that our faith was real, and not just mere belief.
In the grand scheme of things.
1. We hear the gospel
2. We either trust it and repent, or do not.
3. If we trust, We say Yes God, I want your gift of eternal life. I know I do not deserve it. But you have shown me I am a sinner and worthy of condemnation. And your my only hope. I am placing my eternity in your hands.
4. Doing this, We are justified, and renewed (based on the washing of renewal of the HS.) and thus delcared cleansed and freed from the penalty of sin.
5. Because of the faith (true) and the HS who is now in us, We PRODUCE WORK.
Work can not be produced in someone who is not already saved, they have no power to do any work in the way God demands, Any work they might do is self motivated, whether they believe it or not. This is just the fact spoken of in Scripture.
1. In Scripture, the body (greek word sarx) is the flesh, The flesh is the old nature. It is self willed, and self motivated, And yes sin comes out of the body.
2. Jesus removes the penalty of sin. That is what our sickness is, and what keeps us from having a relationship with God. We are saved because this penatly is removed.
3. The spirit is alive, because of God. The body is dead, because of sin. That why the body still gets sick. Why it still dies. Why (in the fleshly nature) we still sin.
Sanctification is separate from justification. Justification is a one time event, Sanctification is an ongoing event which will not be perfect (which would be glorification) until these bodies of sin are destroyed, and we are ressurected to an eternal state,
1. You can not continually repent, This makes no sense. You can not continue to change your mind about the same sin over and over. Religion has twisted the meaning of this word.
2. Yes we must continually look forward. And thank God for forgiving us, Because we still faill, If we do not move forward. We aill not become very sanctified and remain babes in Christ.
3. Salvation is a one time deal. To say otherwise is to ignore the word of God and make mans works a part of salvation. You can not have it both ways, You can not say you are not working to earn it., Then say we must continue to work (repent) to be saved.
lol. Ok. Maybe you have not studied very much? or actually looked at what the word means?
Justification: ..."dikaiosune" is the Greek word which was often used in the greek legal system. When a person was brought before a judge, He was either found guilty of his crime, Or he was found innocent of the crime, if he was found innocent (or aquited) of wrongdoing, he was said to be justified (dikaisune) or found innocent, or righteous of all things brought against him in the court of law.
Sorry my friend, Justification is a legal term. it is not my way of looking at things. It is what the term really means.
Scripture says we are Justified (dikaisune) which is translated "righteous" and "justified" many times in the in the New Testament and it means "acquitted" ( justified ) to "vindicate," or "to be made righteous." We are justified (acquitted from the punishment of sin) and declared righteous because of God who is in us. (sonship) However as man in the flesh we are still an unrighteous being still falling from time to time in sin (fellowship).
Scripture does not support this false accusation. We are guilty. We have things written against us (called the law) and because of this written ordinance against us, We are found guilty, and God justice must bring about judgment (death)
God removed this judgment from us. It IS a judical thing. Paul even thought so..
Colossians 2:14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.
Redemption is even a legal term. Redemption implys ones guilt and punishment was paid.
Paul even agrees with this.
rom 3:24..being justified ( greek dikaiosumenoi ) freely by the grace of God through the redemption in Christ. Jesus.
Our freedom of guilt in God's court of law was paid for (redeemed) by th eblood of Christ. What do you think Christ did on the cross??
Paul does not just speak of law. That is a twisting of things done by many.
Paul sais not by works of righteousness which we have done (this is any good deed. Not just the law) we were saved (justified) by the washing and renewal of the HS.
Not true.
Paul says we HAVE BEEN (past tense) Justified. He does not say we are being (an ongoing process) justified. You need to study more. Your church has given you faulty information
paul is not talking about justification. He is talking about Christian ministry (in this case, his gift as an apostle) Of course it takes work. LOTS OF WORK. MINISTRY is impossible for us. We have to work hard and TOTALLY RELY ON GOD who gives us the strength, or we will falter and fail
But if your NOT SAVED, BORN OF GOD, JUSTIFIED, WASHED, BORN AGAIN, AND GIVEN THE SPIRIT, You CAN NOT DO Christian ministry.
You will get no gift of the HS or do not work for God unless your saved ifrst.
This is sanctification NOT JUSTIFICATION. Your trying to mix the two. THEY CAN NOT BE MIXED., THEY ARE TOTALLY DIFFERENT THINGS
We would be fools not to suffer with Christ. Would we not? WHo want to be like the corinthian church, and babes, which need fed milk, Instead of mature believers who is abe to teach others? and be used by God, And recieve rewarded by God, and not see all our works burnt as wood Hay and straw?
Not me.
But again, If we are not JUSTIFIED FIRST. Non of this will amount to a hill of beend, It will all be self righteousness which will be rejected by God
lol. I am sanctified (set apart which is what the word actually means) the moment I am justified by the redemption in Christ (funny you forgot to see that) I am no longer in the world, but in Christ. I am no longer dead in sin, But I am alive in Christ, Which makes me sanctified (set apart) from the world.
Look at what the word actually means then interpret it in that way.
I am also sanctifying myself (setting myself apart) from the world as I grow in Christ.
You have to realise the word has two differing affects. One is done BY GOD (as in the passages you showed) Ancd one which must be done by us (in the previous passages you showed)
If you do not understand the difference, You will never understand the gospel
Again a seriously flawed interpretatin.
Work out YOUR salvation. It is something YOU ALREADY POSSES. not something your trying to GET..
Again, This is speaking of spiritual growth, and your ability to be used by God. NOT HOW TO GET SAVED
lol. I already have my stamp. It is called the HS
What do you think the "seal" of eph 1: 13- 14 means? it was the stamp of the king, and a message delivered, To gauantee what was inside the note was carried out.
What is promised? Eternal life, Salvation.
Eph 1: 13 - 14 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.
That is my stamp. My seal. My gaurantee..
Your trying to work out your own stamp. Which again, will be rejected. And again proves you are trying to work to earn salvation, even though you continue to deny it.
I nogtice just-me liked this.
and he wonders why people thinks he believes in a works based salvation. WOW
We must look at definitions. I will paste the rebuttal from a site that clearly shows such an interpretation is incorrect.
James 2:14-26 in Detail
This passage hinges on correctly understanding four key terms. Correctly defining terms is the key to understanding the grammatical context of any passage. To correctly understand James 2:14-26, you must have accurately defined the words “save,” “dead,” “justify” and “perfect.” We will define these as we go through the text.
The Response of James to the Objection (James 2:20-26)
But let us get to the rebuttal of James in James 2:20.
James 2:20. But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?
James begins his rebuttal by repeating what he said in verse 17. He said there that faith without works is dead. Works empowers and energizes faith. Works make faith profitable. James says, “So, you don’t believe that there is a connection between faith and works? Let me show you what the Bible says.” Now the objector used one of the cardinal Jewish theological beliefs to make his case – the truth out of Deuteronomy 6 that God is One. So James says, “Oh yeah? Two can play that game.” And James, to make his case, uses the premier figure of faith in the Old Testament, the father of faith and the father of all Jews. James pulls out the trump card and flops it on the table. James uses the example of Abraham.
James 2:21. Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?
Some critics look at this and see a contradiction in the Bible. Paul, in Romans 3-4 and in Galatians 2-3 holds up Abraham as the father of faith because he believed God and so was justified by his faith. He says that Abraham was justified by faith, apart from works! But James says exactly the opposite, that Abraham was justified by works.
To understand what is going on, you need to understand that Paul and James are talking about two completely different events in the life of Abraham. Paul, in saying that Abraham was justified by faith, refers to the events in Genesis 15 where God promises to Abraham that he will be the father of many nations and that the Messiah would come through Abraham. And we read in Genesis 15:6 that Abraham believed God and his faith was credited to him as righteousness. He was declared righteous in the sight of God. He was justified before God. And this is exactly what we read in Romans 4:3 and Galatians 3:6. How do we get eternal life? How are we justified? The same way Abraham was. By faith alone.
But James says that Abraham was justified by works. But do you notice when James says this happened? …when he offered Isaac his son on the altar. When was that? This was 15 years later in Genesis 22! Abraham was justified, or declared righteous by God in Genesis 15, but then he was also justified, or declared righteous again in Genesis 22. Only this second time, it was not by God, but by men.
Justification does not mean “get eternal life.” It means “to declare righteous.” And we can only tell by context who is doing the declaring. The Scripture contains two different kinds of justification. The first is the kind we are most aware of. It is justification through faith alone in the sight of God. Galatians 3:11 talks about being justified in the sight of God. The other kind of justification though, is not through faith, but is through works and is in the sight of men. This is the kind of justification James is talking about here and the kind of justification Abraham received in Genesis 22. Paul hints at this second kind of justification in Romans 4:2.
James is a Bible scholar and he knows that Abraham had faith in Genesis 15, but he is pointing out to his objector here that Abraham’s faith was maturing and being energized by his works. This is what he says in James 2:22.
James 2:14-26 in Detail
This passage hinges on correctly understanding four key terms. Correctly defining terms is the key to understanding the grammatical context of any passage. To correctly understand James 2:14-26, you must have accurately defined the words “save,” “dead,” “justify” and “perfect.” We will define these as we go through the text.
The Response of James to the Objection (James 2:20-26)
But let us get to the rebuttal of James in James 2:20.
James 2:20. But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?
James begins his rebuttal by repeating what he said in verse 17. He said there that faith without works is dead. Works empowers and energizes faith. Works make faith profitable. James says, “So, you don’t believe that there is a connection between faith and works? Let me show you what the Bible says.” Now the objector used one of the cardinal Jewish theological beliefs to make his case – the truth out of Deuteronomy 6 that God is One. So James says, “Oh yeah? Two can play that game.” And James, to make his case, uses the premier figure of faith in the Old Testament, the father of faith and the father of all Jews. James pulls out the trump card and flops it on the table. James uses the example of Abraham.
James 2:21. Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?
Some critics look at this and see a contradiction in the Bible. Paul, in Romans 3-4 and in Galatians 2-3 holds up Abraham as the father of faith because he believed God and so was justified by his faith. He says that Abraham was justified by faith, apart from works! But James says exactly the opposite, that Abraham was justified by works.
To understand what is going on, you need to understand that Paul and James are talking about two completely different events in the life of Abraham. Paul, in saying that Abraham was justified by faith, refers to the events in Genesis 15 where God promises to Abraham that he will be the father of many nations and that the Messiah would come through Abraham. And we read in Genesis 15:6 that Abraham believed God and his faith was credited to him as righteousness. He was declared righteous in the sight of God. He was justified before God. And this is exactly what we read in Romans 4:3 and Galatians 3:6. How do we get eternal life? How are we justified? The same way Abraham was. By faith alone.
But James says that Abraham was justified by works. But do you notice when James says this happened? …when he offered Isaac his son on the altar. When was that? This was 15 years later in Genesis 22! Abraham was justified, or declared righteous by God in Genesis 15, but then he was also justified, or declared righteous again in Genesis 22. Only this second time, it was not by God, but by men.
Justification does not mean “get eternal life.” It means “to declare righteous.” And we can only tell by context who is doing the declaring. The Scripture contains two different kinds of justification. The first is the kind we are most aware of. It is justification through faith alone in the sight of God. Galatians 3:11 talks about being justified in the sight of God. The other kind of justification though, is not through faith, but is through works and is in the sight of men. This is the kind of justification James is talking about here and the kind of justification Abraham received in Genesis 22. Paul hints at this second kind of justification in Romans 4:2.
James is a Bible scholar and he knows that Abraham had faith in Genesis 15, but he is pointing out to his objector here that Abraham’s faith was maturing and being energized by his works. This is what he says in James 2:22.
Hi DavidLOVESsnow,
We are saved by grace - through faith. The faith of Christ - He has done the work.
It is the faith of CHRIST that saves us - not our faith in Him.
It is all of Him. We believe that He is the Christ the Son of God, and believing have life through His Name.
The flesh counts for nothing - all is of God 'in Christ' and we are 'in Him'.
We are His workmanship.
Praise His Name!
In Christ Jesus
Chris
We are saved by grace - through faith. The faith of Christ - He has done the work.
It is the faith of CHRIST that saves us - not our faith in Him.
It is all of Him. We believe that He is the Christ the Son of God, and believing have life through His Name.
The flesh counts for nothing - all is of God 'in Christ' and we are 'in Him'.
We are His workmanship.
Praise His Name!
In Christ Jesus
Chris
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Since I couldn't edit my post, I have to double post. But this was the part of my previous response that needs emphasis. Paul and James are speaking of two completely different events in the life of Abraham. This will clear it up for you.
To understand what is going on, you need to understand that Paul and James are talking about two completely different events in the life of Abraham. Paul, in saying that Abraham was justified by faith, refers to the events in Genesis 15 where God promises to Abraham that he will be the father of many nations and that the Messiah would come through Abraham. And we read in Genesis 15:6 that Abraham believed God and his faith was credited to him as righteousness. He was declared righteous in the sight of God. He was justified before God. And this is exactly what we read in Romans 4:3 and Galatians 3:6. How do we get eternal life? How are we justified? The same way Abraham was. By faith alone.
But James says that Abraham was justified by works. But do you notice when James says this happened? …when he offered Isaac his son on the altar. When was that? This was 15 years later in Genesis 22! Abraham was justified, or declared righteous by God in Genesis 15, but then he was also justified, or declared righteous again in Genesis 22. Only this second time, it was not by God, but by men.
To understand what is going on, you need to understand that Paul and James are talking about two completely different events in the life of Abraham. Paul, in saying that Abraham was justified by faith, refers to the events in Genesis 15 where God promises to Abraham that he will be the father of many nations and that the Messiah would come through Abraham. And we read in Genesis 15:6 that Abraham believed God and his faith was credited to him as righteousness. He was declared righteous in the sight of God. He was justified before God. And this is exactly what we read in Romans 4:3 and Galatians 3:6. How do we get eternal life? How are we justified? The same way Abraham was. By faith alone.
But James says that Abraham was justified by works. But do you notice when James says this happened? …when he offered Isaac his son on the altar. When was that? This was 15 years later in Genesis 22! Abraham was justified, or declared righteous by God in Genesis 15, but then he was also justified, or declared righteous again in Genesis 22. Only this second time, it was not by God, but by men.
I thought that you would appreciate this explanation from a site that defines it really well.
The words "fear and trembling" can mean your knees knocking with fear. However, Paul in most cases used it to mean "reverence and awe." I believe Paul was implying reverence and awe here, but it has more to do here with distrust in one's own abilities. Strong's Concordance states that a distrust in your own abilities can also be meant:
2) with fear and trembling, used to describe the anxiety of one who distrusts his ability completely to meet all requirements, but religiously does his utmost to fulfil his duty
We can see this distrust of one's own abilities used in 1st Cor. 2:3-5:
[SUP] 3[/SUP]And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.
[SUP]4[/SUP]And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
[SUP]5[/SUP]That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
Here we can see that Paul used such words to describe distrust in his own abilities. He did not come with "enticing words of man's wisdom" (distrust in his own abilities), but in the power of God.
I find the message here to be similar to Philippians 2:12-13. Paul was telling the Philippians to continue working out their salvation with a distrust in their own abilities.
Paul told them to not to trust their own abilities as verse 13 gives the reason why:
[SUP]13[/SUP]For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
The reason why we are to work out our salvation with a distrust in our own abilities is because God is the one that works in us to both will and to do of His good pleasure. This goes against the "God is my co-pilot" mentality we have in religion today. I exercise the same distrust today as I had when I trusted Christ for salvation where I distrusted my own abilities to get me saved. Just as Paul told the Colossians:
[SUP]6[/SUP]As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him (Col. 2:6)
As we received Christ by faith, so continue walking by such faith. You received salvation, so work out (not for) your salvation with a distrust in your abilities, for God (not you) is the one working in you to both will and to do of His (not yours) good pleasure.
The words "fear and trembling" can mean your knees knocking with fear. However, Paul in most cases used it to mean "reverence and awe." I believe Paul was implying reverence and awe here, but it has more to do here with distrust in one's own abilities. Strong's Concordance states that a distrust in your own abilities can also be meant:
2) with fear and trembling, used to describe the anxiety of one who distrusts his ability completely to meet all requirements, but religiously does his utmost to fulfil his duty
We can see this distrust of one's own abilities used in 1st Cor. 2:3-5:
[SUP] 3[/SUP]And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.
[SUP]4[/SUP]And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
[SUP]5[/SUP]That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
Here we can see that Paul used such words to describe distrust in his own abilities. He did not come with "enticing words of man's wisdom" (distrust in his own abilities), but in the power of God.
I find the message here to be similar to Philippians 2:12-13. Paul was telling the Philippians to continue working out their salvation with a distrust in their own abilities.
Paul told them to not to trust their own abilities as verse 13 gives the reason why:
[SUP]13[/SUP]For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
The reason why we are to work out our salvation with a distrust in our own abilities is because God is the one that works in us to both will and to do of His good pleasure. This goes against the "God is my co-pilot" mentality we have in religion today. I exercise the same distrust today as I had when I trusted Christ for salvation where I distrusted my own abilities to get me saved. Just as Paul told the Colossians:
[SUP]6[/SUP]As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him (Col. 2:6)
As we received Christ by faith, so continue walking by such faith. You received salvation, so work out (not for) your salvation with a distrust in your abilities, for God (not you) is the one working in you to both will and to do of His (not yours) good pleasure.