We Have Forgotten The Way Is Jesus!
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Hmm...perhaps some do not understand their own question they asked lol. You didn't ask anyone what Grace was or how one obtains it, but asked "how does one grow in grace".
I thought you understood your own question.
2 Peter 3:18
But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever! Amen.
Once received, Grace can be grown...and you grow it by using it.
----
It's a shame. Talk about any effort or responsibility on our part for sanctification AFTER salvation and it's like a knee-jerk reaction to revert back to talking about salvation. smh
I thought you understood your own question.
2 Peter 3:18
But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever! Amen.
Once received, Grace can be grown...and you grow it by using it.
----
It's a shame. Talk about any effort or responsibility on our part for sanctification AFTER salvation and it's like a knee-jerk reaction to revert back to talking about salvation. smh
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I agree 100% my only question is what happens once you do, He has become your way and we are forever transformed then what? I understand what you're saying and agree 100%, but once I am reborn, remade in a radical way by the creator of everything, then what? Do I just stay the same? Do I just sit and say "Jesus is my way, Jesus is my way, Jesus is my way? Or do I become a new creature and get up and bring His truth to the world? I don't know ANYONE that says we have to work for salvation, everyone agrees with you. The disagreement seems to come on what happens AFTER that. I mean why do I want to be "reborn", what does that do?
S
well that's the thing isn't it
this is what you actually wrote and what I responded to.
Growing in grace is like man going to the gym for the first time in his life...
A man walks into a gym and approaches a trainer and says, "how do I grow strong muscles?"
The trainer, curious about his question, answers him plainly, "well sir you have to workout. You have to use your muscles to get stronger."
The man, puzzled by the trainer's answer, replies and says, "Ok. But can't I just establish a relationship with you and you grow my muscles?"
The trainer answers, "Sure! Absolutely! We can setup a training regiment where we'll start you off with lifting light weights to work your muscles. Then as you get stronger we'll add more weights and..."
But the man cuts him off and says, "No that's not what I had in mind. That's not what I mean". The man adds, "I was hoping that when I establish a relationship with you, that you can do all of the work for my muscles."
The trainer looks at the man with a frown, visibly confused and unsettled. "Wait...so you want me to grow your muscles without adding any of your own effort? Somehow you want me to workout for you? I'm sorry but that's not how it works, sir. I can spot you and support you with my own strength when it gets tough and you feel weak, and I'm fully committed to guiding you through this entire process until you as strong as I am; and I'll never leave you alone in it. But to grow your muscles you have to put in the work."
The man now mirrors the trainer's frown and asks, "Can't you just teach me more and more about my muscles, put the weights in my hands and then lift my arms for me?"
"I'm sorry but what you're asking of me doesn't make any sense. You have to exercise your own God-given muscles. You have to use the strength given to you to resist a heavy weight against you in order to grow stronger. The stronger you get the easier it is to resist the weight until it no longer weighs you down."
---
We have to use the grace God's given us to resist the devil's temptation to sin in order to grow stronger in grace. We have to put in the (good) work of obeying God's commands and not sinning. Christ our trainer is with us in Spirit to spot us and guide us in our workout.
THE GOOD WORK OF OBEYING GOD'S COMMANDS
GRACE IS NOT WORKS
notice I do not have to make use of the largest font available to try and yell louder
you grow grace by using it?
that may explain why you are stuck on works
I have no interest in arguing with works based salvation, while the one professing it tells me I don't know what grace is.
what I notice, is that those who argue works, basically destroy the threads of others
if you employ works, you create some kind of mashup that does not equal grace and I am past bored with the tactics used by people who do that
so please do not hold your breath waiting for me to respond again regarding your beliefs
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That's ok you don't have to respond. This is for the edification of those who will read it.
Using CAPS is known as "yelling through text", not increasing the font size (which is used for emphasis). So actually you are yelling in your reply...just saying.
I use increased font for emphasis when it appears people have overlooked something noteworthy from skimming the text. And the main tactic I use is simply to copy and paste scripture to let its words remove all doubt. Now whether some rather cling to traditional doctrines or beliefs vs. the truth outline in scripture, that's between them and God.
In reading this there was an assumption made on my part, particularly that the one asking the question was past the understanding that grace has already been given to believers by God; that this gift was given through faith in Christ on the cross...thus the reply
No, Grace isn't works. Grace is grace...
...and works is works.
Grace is a gift from God...
...and we grow Grace by using grace to do good works
...and "good works" are obeying God's commands.
"obeying" God's commands = not sinning
Sinning = "disobeying" God's commands
I'm not sure what your definition of Grace is but here are the following passages on Grace (reposted to this thread).
----
Grace is a utility for God's witnesses.
"And with great power the apostles gave witness to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus. And great grace was upon them all.” (Acts 4:33)
Grace can be grown.
“… but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.” (2 Peter 3:18)
Grace is a strength.
“You therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus.” (2 Timothy 2:1)
Grace is a resource for doing good works.
“And God is able to make all grace abound toward you, that you, always having all sufficiency in all things, have an abundance for every good work.” (2 Corinthians 9:8)
Gifts of God come from God's grace.
“I thank my God always concerning you for the grace of God which was given to you by Christ Jesus, that you were enriched in everything by Him in all utterance and all knowledge, even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you, so that you come short in no gift, eagerly waiting for the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ, who will also confirm you to the end, that you may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.” (1 Corinthians 1:4-8)
Grace is Christ's gift.
“But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift.” (Ephesians 4:7)
Grace is to be actively used through gifts.
“Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, let us prophesy in proportion to our faith …” (Romans 12:6)
This is why Grace can be received in vain (i.e. not used).
As God's co-workers we urge you not to receive God's grace in vain. (2 Corinthians 6:1)
Grace is many-fold.
“As each one has received a gift, minister it to one another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God.” (1 Peter 4:10)
Grace is God's strength.
8 Concerning this thing I pleaded with the Lord three times that it might depart from me. 9 And He said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in needs, in persecutions, in distresses, for Christ’s sake. For when I am weak, then I am strong.
(2 Corinthians 12:8-10)
Grace teaches us to avoid sin and live Righteously
11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men.
Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; (Titus 2:11-12)
----
The last chapter of the last book of ALL scripture talks about works, yet folks keep talking about salvation which is found in books 45-50, when there are still 16 additional books after that to get through to the end. There's a whoooole lot of bible left after those books. So if the bible is our spiritual textbook to train in righteousness, who's really stuck at a certain point in the training? And who's reaching the end?
Revelation 22:12 (< last chapter of last book)
And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
We're accused of destroying threads but the reality is we simply care enough about folks here to help them reach the end of the matter.
Using CAPS is known as "yelling through text", not increasing the font size (which is used for emphasis). So actually you are yelling in your reply...just saying.
I use increased font for emphasis when it appears people have overlooked something noteworthy from skimming the text. And the main tactic I use is simply to copy and paste scripture to let its words remove all doubt. Now whether some rather cling to traditional doctrines or beliefs vs. the truth outline in scripture, that's between them and God.
In reading this there was an assumption made on my part, particularly that the one asking the question was past the understanding that grace has already been given to believers by God; that this gift was given through faith in Christ on the cross...thus the reply
No, Grace isn't works. Grace is grace...
...and works is works.
Grace is a gift from God...
...and we grow Grace by using grace to do good works
...and "good works" are obeying God's commands.
"obeying" God's commands = not sinning
Sinning = "disobeying" God's commands
I'm not sure what your definition of Grace is but here are the following passages on Grace (reposted to this thread).
----
Grace is a utility for God's witnesses.
"And with great power the apostles gave witness to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus. And great grace was upon them all.” (Acts 4:33)
Grace can be grown.
“… but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.” (2 Peter 3:18)
Grace is a strength.
“You therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus.” (2 Timothy 2:1)
Grace is a resource for doing good works.
“And God is able to make all grace abound toward you, that you, always having all sufficiency in all things, have an abundance for every good work.” (2 Corinthians 9:8)
Gifts of God come from God's grace.
“I thank my God always concerning you for the grace of God which was given to you by Christ Jesus, that you were enriched in everything by Him in all utterance and all knowledge, even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you, so that you come short in no gift, eagerly waiting for the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ, who will also confirm you to the end, that you may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.” (1 Corinthians 1:4-8)
Grace is Christ's gift.
“But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift.” (Ephesians 4:7)
Grace is to be actively used through gifts.
“Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, let us prophesy in proportion to our faith …” (Romans 12:6)
This is why Grace can be received in vain (i.e. not used).
As God's co-workers we urge you not to receive God's grace in vain. (2 Corinthians 6:1)
Grace is many-fold.
“As each one has received a gift, minister it to one another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God.” (1 Peter 4:10)
Grace is God's strength.
8 Concerning this thing I pleaded with the Lord three times that it might depart from me. 9 And He said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in needs, in persecutions, in distresses, for Christ’s sake. For when I am weak, then I am strong.
(2 Corinthians 12:8-10)
Grace teaches us to avoid sin and live Righteously
11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men.
Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; (Titus 2:11-12)
----
The last chapter of the last book of ALL scripture talks about works, yet folks keep talking about salvation which is found in books 45-50, when there are still 16 additional books after that to get through to the end. There's a whoooole lot of bible left after those books. So if the bible is our spiritual textbook to train in righteousness, who's really stuck at a certain point in the training? And who's reaching the end?
Revelation 22:12 (< last chapter of last book)
And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
We're accused of destroying threads but the reality is we simply care enough about folks here to help them reach the end of the matter.
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S
you are teaching works as righteousness, works as faith and mashup of old and new testaments
that's all anyone needs to know
that is not the gospel
no. you are trying to convert people to your mix of law and grace
unless you personally wrote the items you have listed, you should quote your source. does not matter if you listed it in another thread; news flash, I am willing to bet most people do not hang on every word you post
you don't know what sin is. it far more than disobeying God's commands
again, this is a mashup and misses the truth but I already said that
that's all anyone needs to know
that is not the gospel
no. you are trying to convert people to your mix of law and grace
unless you personally wrote the items you have listed, you should quote your source. does not matter if you listed it in another thread; news flash, I am willing to bet most people do not hang on every word you post
you don't know what sin is. it far more than disobeying God's commands
again, this is a mashup and misses the truth but I already said that
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can you give an example when you fought these power.
For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places
as long as your still tied to the law. then your fighting condemnation in self. and have no authority in the spiritual.
Galatians 5: Christ Has Set Us Free
1 For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery.
2 Look: I, Paul, say to you that if you accept circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you.3 I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law.4 You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.Galatians 5: Christ Has Set Us Free
if you still having problem with translating the bible. you got to be in it, to win it.
6 For the fool speaks folly,
and his heart is busy with iniquity,
to practice ungodliness,
to utter error concerning the LORD,
to leave the craving of the hungry unsatisfied,
and to deprive the thirsty of drink.Isaiah 32: A King Will Reign in Righteousness
For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places
as long as your still tied to the law. then your fighting condemnation in self. and have no authority in the spiritual.
Galatians 5: Christ Has Set Us Free
1 For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery.
2 Look: I, Paul, say to you that if you accept circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you.3 I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law.4 You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.Galatians 5: Christ Has Set Us Free
if you still having problem with translating the bible. you got to be in it, to win it.
6 For the fool speaks folly,
and his heart is busy with iniquity,
to practice ungodliness,
to utter error concerning the LORD,
to leave the craving of the hungry unsatisfied,
and to deprive the thirsty of drink.Isaiah 32: A King Will Reign in Righteousness
that why paul wrote this to warn others about , what you say in your quote. your, i think v this quote.
again i already said there is a difference from basic salvation , and waking in the spiritual, and again more differences in being a leader in christain circles. etc
Galatians 5: Christ Has Set Us Free
1 For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery.
2 Look: I, Paul, say to you that if you accept circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you.3 I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law.4 You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from graceGalatians 5: Christ Has Set Us Free
there is two parts to the story and only one part that leads to eternal life.
Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenantHebrews 9
if you cut off, you have no authority in the spiritual ,your still saved by salvation, but if you claim to follow, then it would be in the guidance and direction of the holy spirit and that cannot be done if your still look at law.
that is the warning given in these verses. in the upper verse.
.21 I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose Galatians 2.
again i already said there is a difference from basic salvation , and waking in the spiritual, and again more differences in being a leader in christain circles. etc
Galatians 5: Christ Has Set Us Free
1 For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery.
2 Look: I, Paul, say to you that if you accept circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you.3 I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law.4 You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from graceGalatians 5: Christ Has Set Us Free
there is two parts to the story and only one part that leads to eternal life.
Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenantHebrews 9
if you cut off, you have no authority in the spiritual ,your still saved by salvation, but if you claim to follow, then it would be in the guidance and direction of the holy spirit and that cannot be done if your still look at law.
that is the warning given in these verses. in the upper verse.
.21 I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose Galatians 2.
Revelation 14:12 (< last book)
Here is a call for the endurance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.
Revelation 19:8 (< last book)
She has been given the finest of pure white linen to wear." For the fine linen represents the righteous deeds of God's holy people.
Ok. Jesus is the way right? We follow Christ, correct? Can you please help me understand how the following passage fits into everything? It was one of the very last things Christ said in the bible.
Revelation 22:11-12 (< last chapter of last book)
Let the unrighteous continue to be unrighteous, and the vile continue to be vile; let the righteous continue to practice righteousness, and the holy continue to be holy.
And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
???
Ok. Thanks for your time.
Here is a call for the endurance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.
Revelation 19:8 (< last book)
She has been given the finest of pure white linen to wear." For the fine linen represents the righteous deeds of God's holy people.
Ok. Jesus is the way right? We follow Christ, correct? Can you please help me understand how the following passage fits into everything? It was one of the very last things Christ said in the bible.
Revelation 22:11-12 (< last chapter of last book)
Let the unrighteous continue to be unrighteous, and the vile continue to be vile; let the righteous continue to practice righteousness, and the holy continue to be holy.
And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
???
Ok. Thanks for your time.
Keeping the commandments of God in the New Covenant are here.
1 John 3:23 (NASB)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us.
Revelation 19:18 is about the linen supplied by Christ. Christ is our righteousness - not that we have our own. This is a major stumbling block to us. This is not speaking of our own righteousness.
Revelation 19:8 (KJV)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
Revelation 22:11 is talking about those that are "already" righteous because of Christ and they - because of Christ's righteousness will walk in that righteousness unhindered.
Revelation 22:11 (KJV)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
What is the work that will be rewarded according to Jesus in Rev. 22:12? What is this work that all other work originates from?
John 6:28-29 (NASB)
[SUP]28 [/SUP] Therefore they said to Him, "What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?"
[SUP]29 [/SUP] Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."
There are so many forms of works-righteousness - from the "keeping of the law" to the "deeds we think we must do to be righteous." All are denying the very work of Christ and nullifying the very grace of God needed to walk in this life.
There are deeds of righteousness but they are a fruit of already being righteous because of Christ and what He has done. Get this backwards and we create a works-based - self-righteousness/holiness religion.
Let's get the "horse" before the "cart". The horse being Christ's righteousness alone. Get the foundation in Christ right - then we can build properly on Him. Right believing results in right living and His fruit being manifested in and through us to a hurt and dying world that needs to see His love and grace of them.
1 John 3:23 (NASB)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us.
Revelation 19:18 is about the linen supplied by Christ. Christ is our righteousness - not that we have our own. This is a major stumbling block to us. This is not speaking of our own righteousness.
Revelation 19:8 (KJV)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
Revelation 22:11 is talking about those that are "already" righteous because of Christ and they - because of Christ's righteousness will walk in that righteousness unhindered.
Revelation 22:11 (KJV)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
What is the work that will be rewarded according to Jesus in Rev. 22:12? What is this work that all other work originates from?
John 6:28-29 (NASB)
[SUP]28 [/SUP] Therefore they said to Him, "What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?"
[SUP]29 [/SUP] Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."
There are so many forms of works-righteousness - from the "keeping of the law" to the "deeds we think we must do to be righteous." All are denying the very work of Christ and nullifying the very grace of God needed to walk in this life.
There are deeds of righteousness but they are a fruit of already being righteous because of Christ and what He has done. Get this backwards and we create a works-based - self-righteousness/holiness religion.
Let's get the "horse" before the "cart". The horse being Christ's righteousness alone. Get the foundation in Christ right - then we can build properly on Him. Right believing results in right living and His fruit being manifested in and through us to a hurt and dying world that needs to see His love and grace of them.
S
yeah
ok
mashup and not even that good. I've seen better.
the mistake you works dudes make, is assuming you can keep the commandments. which means Jesus did not have to die.
but then you go 'if you are saved you keep the commandments'. no you don't. one sinful thought and you broke them and that includes accidental sinful thoughts.
you don't have any? then you make God a liar according to John. but what does he know. He only walked with Jesus
ok
mashup and not even that good. I've seen better.
the mistake you works dudes make, is assuming you can keep the commandments. which means Jesus did not have to die.
but then you go 'if you are saved you keep the commandments'. no you don't. one sinful thought and you broke them and that includes accidental sinful thoughts.
you don't have any? then you make God a liar according to John. but what does he know. He only walked with Jesus
I like this post a lot. I have thought faith is like a muscle and God grows it by putting us in situations to exercise it. He did this with Israel in the desert. It says He let them become very thirsty in the desert to see what they would do. Would there be the obedience of trust despite how things looked or would there be complaining at the very things He brought in order to exercise and grow their trust? The very things designed to grow them so they would abide fully in Him are the very things they complained about! One little physical discomfort can make us so cranky that we refuse to exercise the obedience of faith.
It's not in our discussions about God that we err so bad - it's in the obedience of faith when we have a discomfort that we err. Bad knees, bad hands, bad back, rotten tooth, hunger,thirst - we can't see He is giving us good exercise, we only see our physical discomfort and pray that it end immediately. We complain that He has given us a stone when He is trying to bless us by growing our wealth, because our trust is more precious than silver tried 7 times! So that is my opinion.
It's not in our discussions about God that we err so bad - it's in the obedience of faith when we have a discomfort that we err. Bad knees, bad hands, bad back, rotten tooth, hunger,thirst - we can't see He is giving us good exercise, we only see our physical discomfort and pray that it end immediately. We complain that He has given us a stone when He is trying to bless us by growing our wealth, because our trust is more precious than silver tried 7 times! So that is my opinion.
I'm confused as to what you're referring to as a "mashup". I copied and pasted 3 passages from the very last book of the bible. I didn't write the book. I didn't construct new passages. I just delivered them. Your dispute isn't with me it's with the last words Christ said. Christ said them. So why won't you address what he says? I'' give them again and then step back:
Revelation 14:12 (< last book)
Here is a call for the endurance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.
Revelation 19:8 (< last book)
She has been given the finest of pure white linen to wear." For the fine linen represents the righteous deeds of God's holy people.
Revelation 22:11-12 (< last chapter of last book)
Let the unrighteous continue to be unrighteous, and the vile continue to be vile; let the righteous continue to practice righteousness, and the holy continue to be holy.
And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
Revelation 14:12 (< last book)
Here is a call for the endurance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.
Revelation 19:8 (< last book)
She has been given the finest of pure white linen to wear." For the fine linen represents the righteous deeds of God's holy people.
Revelation 22:11-12 (< last chapter of last book)
Let the unrighteous continue to be unrighteous, and the vile continue to be vile; let the righteous continue to practice righteousness, and the holy continue to be holy.
And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
With respect this is incorrect Grace777. We have to keep the words of scripture what they are. We are told not to add to the words given or to take away from the words of this book, specifically. So we have to keep the words of the book as they are and accept what they say:
Revelation 19:8 (NLV, ESV, ISV, NET,)
She has been given the finest of pure white linen to wear." For the fine linen represents the righteous deeds of God's holy people.
Revelation 19:8 (NIV, BSB, NASB, HCSB, NHEB, )
Fine linen, bright and clean, was given her to wear." (Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of God's holy people.)
Revelation 19:8 (KJV)
And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
Christ is speaking plainly in Revelation. He's no longer talking in parables like in the Gospels. He could've clearly said, "fine linen represents my righteousness" or "linen represents the righteousness of Jesus" or "linen represents the righteous work of Jesus". All of the necessary Greek words are used at least once in the entire book of Revelation to have constructed these phrases as necessary, but it was never said.
In addition, the word used for "righteousness" is dikaiōmata and is only used in the above passage as well as the following passages:
Romans 2:26 N-ANP
GRK: ἀκροβυστία τὰ δικαιώματα τοῦ νόμου
NAS: keeps the requirements of the Law,
KJV: keep the righteousness of the law,
INT: uncircumcision the requirements of the law
Hebrews 9:1 N-ANP
GRK: ἡ πρώτη δικαιώματα λατρείας τό
NAS: [covenant] had regulations of divine worship
KJV: also ordinances of divine service,
INT: the first regulations of worship
Hebrews 9:10 N-NNP
GRK: διαφόροις βαπτισμοῖς δικαιώματα σαρκὸς μέχρι
NAS: washings, regulations for the body
KJV: carnal ordinances, imposed
INT: various washings ordinances of flesh until
Revelation 15:4 N-NNP
GRK: ὅτι τὰ δικαιώματά σου ἐφανερώθησαν
NAS: BEFORE YOU, FOR YOUR RIGHTEOUS ACTS HAVE BEEN REVEALED.
KJV: for thy judgments are made manifest.
INT: for the righteous deeds of you [acts] were revealed
But even beyond this, Christ establishes his context in the first 2 chapters of Revelation. When he dictates his letters to his 7 churches he's explaining to them that he's judging their "deeds" (also translated as their "works"). Some of his church's deeds are approved, as he tells them to "endure just a little longer" with their little strength. While others of his Church do not have deeds worthy of Christ.
Here's the post where I outline the 7 letters: http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/150482-salvation-based-faith-5.html#post3048064
Note the keywords and phrases he uses:
- I know thy works (7 times)
- Overcome
- Endure
- I will give unto every one of you according to your works
- keep my works until the end
- I have not found thy works perfect
- defiled their garments
- kept my word
- little strength...hold fast
Imagine a large construction building in the works:
One group says, "we have to get the foundation right?"
The second group says, "the foundation has been laid over and over again. Now it's time to get to work building on that foundation."
The first group stops them saying, "NO! We can't do any work! That removes the foundation! We need to establish the foundation, AND THEN the work will follow automatically. The house will build itself. You can't use your own effort."
The second group; "But that's not the instructions the foreman gave! He laid the foundation and we have to build on it!"
The first group; "No! We have to make sure we have the correct foundation first! Stop building! You have no ability to build!"
----
We're not building on the foundation if we're still trying to re-establish the same foundation over and over again like Hebrews says.
You have posted too much to quote back - but basically it boils down to that in the Greek the word is righteousness. We are not saved by our righteous deeds. It is all Christ's righteousness not our own. This is a works-based false doctrine.
The KJV does have it right. I know it conflicts with the false doctrine that we save ourselves by our righteous deeds.
Notice it says in Rev. 19:8 that He has granted them to be arrayed in fine linen.
He has granted them is in the Greek Aorist Indicative Passive tense - which is a one time event put on them by an outside source. God gave them this fine linen of Christ's righteousness.
The righteousness of the saints is the righteousness of Christ - there is no other kind that is acceptable to God.
Romans 10:3 (NASB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] For not knowing about God's righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God.
The whole gospel is about God's righteousness being revealed.
Romans 1:16-17 (NASB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "BUT THE RIGHTEOUS man SHALL LIVE BY FAITH."
Here is a post that refers to the letters to the church based on the finished work of Christ and not by a works based view.
http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...one-deceive-you-life-death-2.html#post2749724
We both have our personal beliefs and have given what we believe so we can leave it there in the hands of the Lord and let the Holy Spirit reveal all that Christ has done for us in our great salvation that is all based on Him. We believe - therefor we speak.
All is well. Be blessed my brother!
The KJV does have it right. I know it conflicts with the false doctrine that we save ourselves by our righteous deeds.
Notice it says in Rev. 19:8 that He has granted them to be arrayed in fine linen.
He has granted them is in the Greek Aorist Indicative Passive tense - which is a one time event put on them by an outside source. God gave them this fine linen of Christ's righteousness.
The righteousness of the saints is the righteousness of Christ - there is no other kind that is acceptable to God.
Romans 10:3 (NASB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] For not knowing about God's righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God.
The whole gospel is about God's righteousness being revealed.
Romans 1:16-17 (NASB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "BUT THE RIGHTEOUS man SHALL LIVE BY FAITH."
Here is a post that refers to the letters to the church based on the finished work of Christ and not by a works based view.
http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...one-deceive-you-life-death-2.html#post2749724
We both have our personal beliefs and have given what we believe so we can leave it there in the hands of the Lord and let the Holy Spirit reveal all that Christ has done for us in our great salvation that is all based on Him. We believe - therefor we speak.
All is well. Be blessed my brother!
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Just for fun....Here is the same Greek word used in Rev.19:8
The only difference is that it is used in the singular here in Romans and plural in Rev.
Both Greek words are nominative accusative neutral nouns. It is talking about righteousness itself.
Romans 5:16 (NASB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification.
Romans 8:4 (NASB)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
But again everyone is free to view things as they choose.
Romans 14:22 (NASB)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] The faith which you have, have as your own conviction before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves.
The only difference is that it is used in the singular here in Romans and plural in Rev.
Both Greek words are nominative accusative neutral nouns. It is talking about righteousness itself.
Romans 5:16 (NASB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification.
Romans 8:4 (NASB)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
But again everyone is free to view things as they choose.
Romans 14:22 (NASB)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] The faith which you have, have as your own conviction before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves.
Amen...I believe and know you have a good heart for the Lord and for truth. It is healthy to have a look at things from all angles as none of us knows things as we ought to know them..
One day maybe we will go fishing together in heaven and enjoy the goodness and love of our Lord and Father towards us all.... Shalom
One day maybe we will go fishing together in heaven and enjoy the goodness and love of our Lord and Father towards us all....
Shalom
Amen...I believe and know you have a good heart for the Lord and for truth. It is healthy to have a look at things from all angles as none of us knows things as we ought to know them..
One day maybe we will go fishing together in heaven and enjoy the goodness and love of our Lord and Father towards us all.... Shalom
One day maybe we will go fishing together in heaven and enjoy the goodness and love of our Lord and Father towards us all....
Shalom Some might call that "fly-fishing"