What does this mean: "I have said, Ye are gods..."
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Judges of men?
7seas posted an excellent video on this, although he doesn't go into the Hebrew details like Marc did in his post above.
#323
Watch this video, he goes through the context, and where this word is used to mean HUMAN judges. That is the issue. Because, we are certainly not gods, never will be gods. This Word Faith doctrine is like a bad cross between Mormons and the New Age movement. And make no mistake, the entire Word Faith movement turns on this one verse in Scripture (one in the OT, plus a quote)
Do not be deceived. One quoting of a verse in the OT, in a psalm does not in any way make a doctrine. And yet "you are gods" is the basis for the entire Word of Faith movement.
Because, God created (bara) with his mouth, so therefore, if we are gods, we can create, command, be rich, heal in an instant, if we can "bara" which in Hebrew means (out of nothing!) Which we cannot!
Even if someone is healed by our prayers, or they become rich, and it is of God, it is GOD who heals/creates/commands, not us! Our prayers are to seek God concerning these matters. And when we pray and that is the will of God, then it happens.
If we pray and it is not the will of God, it does not happen. That is why people die from sicknesses who are WF and do not listen to doctors, because we can NEVER command God to do things. Even Jesus said the following:
"When Jesus had washed their feet and put on His robe, He reclined again and said to them, “Do you know what I have done for you? 13 You call Me Teacher and Lord. This is well said, for I am. 14 So if I, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also ought to wash one another’s feet. 15 For I have given you an example that you also should do just as I have done for you.16 “I assure you: A slave is not greater than his master, and a messenger is not greater than the one who sent him. [FONT="]17 If you know these things, you are blessed if you do them." John 13:12-17
We are in fact SLAVES. (δοῦλος) Context shows this, to say nothing of it being in so many other places in the Bible. Why isn't the Word Faith shooting it to the rooftops, that we are slaves when we come to Christ. That is a Biblical doctrine, not this out of context John 10:34 verse where Jesus is talking about HIMSELF, and quoting Psalm 82:6
Here are just a few verses about being slaves, which is much more to the point of how we need to be, as believers filled with the Holy Spirit. Instead of vain and arrogant people, claiming in ignorance, probably never have read the verse in context, that "we are gods."
[/FONT]"What then? Should we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Absolutely not! 16 Don’t you know that if you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of that one you obey—either of sin leading to death or of obedience leading to righteousness? 17 But thank God that, although you used to be slaves of sin, you obeyed from the heart that pattern of teaching you were transferred to, 18 and having been liberated from sin, you became enslaved to righteousness. 19 I am using a human analogy because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you offered the parts of yourselves as slaves to moral impurity, and to greater and greater lawlessness, so now offer them as slaves to righteousness, which results in sanctification. 20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free from allegiance to righteousness. 21 So what fruit was produced then from the things you are now ashamed of? For the end of those things is death. 22 But now, since you have been liberated from sin and have become enslaved to God, you have your fruit, which results in sanctification—and the end is eternal life! 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." Romans 6:15-23
"Be subject to every human institution for the Lord’s sake, whether to a king as supreme 14 or to governors as those he commissions to punish wrongdoers and praise those who do good. 15 For God wants you to silence the ignorance of foolish people by doing good. [FONT="]16 Live as free people, not using your freedom as a pretext for evil, but as God’s slaves." 1 Peter 2:13-16 NET
There are more, but this thread is about WoF. Although, the contrast is plain and simple.
Are you wanting to be a god, or a slave of the Lord Jesus Christ? I can't see how you can be both! Either you are obedient to Christ, or you are on your own, some kind of god, like the Mormons, who run their own planet, if they build up enough brownie points, or like the New Age movement, which is completely a works-righteousness movement, too, who do not believe in who Christ is, and what he came to do.
But then, you believe that, too, don't you Jaybird! That Jesus isn't God?[/FONT]
Since when do "Sons of Elohim" do this: "They do not know, nor do they understand, They walk about in darkness"
Psalms 82:1-8, “Elohim stands in the congregation of Ěl; He judges in the midst of the elohim (H430). How long would you judge perversely, And show partiality to the wrong? Selah. Give right-ruling to the poor and fatherless, Do right to the afflicted and needy. Rescue the poor and needy; Deliver them from the hand of the wrong. They do not know, nor do they understand, They walk about in darkness. All the foundations of the earth are shaken. I, I said, “You are elohim (H430), And all of you are sons of the Most High. But as men you die, And fall as one of the heads.” Arise, O Elohim, judge the earth, For You shall possess all the nations.”
these actions alone would make humans not His children... yet... "But as men you die"
...
Psalms 82:1-8, “Elohim stands in the congregation of Ěl; He judges in the midst of the elohim (H430). How long would you judge perversely, And show partiality to the wrong? Selah. Give right-ruling to the poor and fatherless, Do right to the afflicted and needy. Rescue the poor and needy; Deliver them from the hand of the wrong. They do not know, nor do they understand, They walk about in darkness. All the foundations of the earth are shaken. I, I said, “You are elohim (H430), And all of you are sons of the Most High. But as men you die, And fall as one of the heads.” Arise, O Elohim, judge the earth, For You shall possess all the nations.”
these actions alone would make humans not His children... yet... "But as men you die"
...
a god unto pharaoh(foul bird)?
[FONT="]Jesus summoned His twelve disciples and gave them authority over unclean spirits(foul birds), to cast them out, and to heal every kind of disease and every kind of sickness.
Just as Avram was given authority to drive away the ravens from the table of the Lord.
pharaoh sat for six days and thought himself king.[/FONT]
[FONT="]Jesus summoned His twelve disciples and gave them authority over unclean spirits(foul birds), to cast them out, and to heal every kind of disease and every kind of sickness.
Just as Avram was given authority to drive away the ravens from the table of the Lord.
pharaoh sat for six days and thought himself king.[/FONT]
J
the Most High says pretty plainly "You are gods". here is the passage again:
[SUP]6 [/SUP]I said, “You are gods,
sons of the Most High, all of you;
He says "you ARE gods"
why would Jesus say they are "called" gods when in fact, according to you, they are not gods? and why would Jesus contradict His Father when His Father said they "ARE" gods.
polytheist?? i believe in one Most High, and the bible mentions many other gods, we even have a commandment not to worship other gods. just because the bible says "gods" does not mean it is talking about the one Most High. He is one.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]I said, “You are gods,
sons of the Most High, all of you;
He says "you ARE gods"
why would Jesus say they are "called" gods when in fact, according to you, they are not gods? and why would Jesus contradict His Father when His Father said they "ARE" gods.
polytheist?? i believe in one Most High, and the bible mentions many other gods, we even have a commandment not to worship other gods. just because the bible says "gods" does not mean it is talking about the one Most High. He is one.
The Bible also says you are salt (Matt 5:13) so does that mean you are literally table salt sodium dichloride? The First Commandment says "you shall have no other gods but me". It doesn't say you shall worship no other gods but me. You are a polytheist because you believe in more than one god, you have other gods besides God, and that makes your belief system not Biblical Christianity.
J
do we have salt in us?
lets get back to the subject, the one you keep dodging. im assuming you have no answer to what i asked? here it is again:
now lets take a look at this:
no other gods
worship other gods
what difference does it make, your ignoring one key element, who are these "gods" we are to have nothing to do with yet according to you they do not exist and if they do in fact do not exist why in the world would the scriptures even mention them?
and your basing this on a term from the 17th century??? umm ok
lets get back to the subject, the one you keep dodging. im assuming you have no answer to what i asked? here it is again:
now lets take a look at this:
no other gods
worship other gods
what difference does it make, your ignoring one key element, who are these "gods" we are to have nothing to do with yet according to you they do not exist and if they do in fact do not exist why in the world would the scriptures even mention them?
and your basing this on a term from the 17th century??? umm ok
You are mistaken. The Most High gave us the Scriptures in Hebrew (and Aramaic) for the OT and Greek for the NT.
The translators of the KJV either were not taught or elected to ignore the differentiation between the megeth accent and the atnah accent on the he of Elohiym. in either case 'gods' is a mis-translation. It is sufficiently obvious that we are indeed NOT really objects of worship; that the mis-translation does very little harm.
The translators of the KJV either were not taught or elected to ignore the differentiation between the megeth accent and the atnah accent on the he of Elohiym. in either case 'gods' is a mis-translation. It is sufficiently obvious that we are indeed NOT really objects of worship; that the mis-translation does very little harm.
Did you watch the link I reposted from 7keys in my last post. #323 was the link in blue.
First, you can NOT make a doctrine out of one verse. So, to take this verse and make a doctrine out of it, which is foundational to the WoF doctrine (and this thread comes out of the WoF thread!) is just bad hermeneutics. And regardless of whether you are Word Faith, if you make this part of your belief system, you are believing a bad doctrine.
Second, to take a word that is mistranslated in the Hebrew and make a doctrine out of it, is nonsense. Marc clearly explained that the word for god, elohiym in Hebrew has a megeth under the he, making the word “judges” instead of the name for God, which has an atnah under the he. So, the word is actually mistranslated. Which then means that whatever Jesus said in the NT is either mistranslated, or mistransliterated. Jesus may have even been speaking in Aramaic, which might be why it comes through that way in the NT.
Here is Marc’s post one more time! Since you didn’t read it and/or understand it the first time, apparently.
Originally Posted by MarcR
In Hebrew, when [FONT="]אֱלֹהִ֑ים[/FONT] Elohiym refers to deity it is ALWAYS to the one true (triune) God.
When 'gods' is intended [FONT="]אֱלֹהח֣י[/FONT] elohay is used.
The Hebrew word [FONT="]אֱלֹ[/FONT][FONT="]הִֽים[/FONT] Elohiym does NOT always signify deity. When applied to people it always signifies mighty in a political or military sense. note that the [FONT="]הִֽ[/FONT] he is accented with a [FONT="]הֽ[/FONT] megeth instead of an [FONT="]ה֑[/FONT] atnah.
When 'gods' is intended [FONT="]אֱלֹהח֣י[/FONT] elohay is used.
The Hebrew word [FONT="]אֱלֹ[/FONT][FONT="]הִֽים[/FONT] Elohiym does NOT always signify deity. When applied to people it always signifies mighty in a political or military sense. note that the [FONT="]הִֽ[/FONT] he is accented with a [FONT="]הֽ[/FONT] megeth instead of an [FONT="]ה֑[/FONT] atnah.
And I noticed you didn’t answer my question about whether you believe Jesus was God. Since I know your posts, I know you don’t. But carry on believing lies. One day you will learn the truth, I just hope it does not come too late!
what does judges mean? judges of this world (men) or angels / gods / sons of the Most High judges?
the passage calls them judges so i dont think there has ever been a question of whether or not they where judges, but what kind of judges?
Come on jaybird, just read the context of Psalm 82:6 starting at vs1. At vs2 God says, "How long will you judge unjustly, and show partiality to the wicked?" In other words they are judges just like we have corrept judges in our court system. It's that simple jaybird. God even says they walk in darkness vs5 and at vs 6 God says their going to die like the men that they are, corrupt.
You also made this statement, "so when the Almighty says sons of the Most High are in fact gods, is this an error?" It is not a matter of being in error, it's a matter of rightly understand what God means by READING THE CONTEXT." Why complicate things with "assumptions, presumptions, or reading into the text something that is not there. There are times when one should not be a "literalist" just like you saying, "The Most High says they are in fact gods, is this an error?" No, it's not an error. Jesus said He is the bread of life so would you take that literally and think that Jesus is a loaf of bread? Come on, THINK!
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
the passage calls them judges so i dont think there has ever been a question of whether or not they where judges, but what kind of judges?
Come on jaybird, just read the context of Psalm 82:6 starting at vs1. At vs2 God says, "How long will you judge unjustly, and show partiality to the wicked?" In other words they are judges just like we have corrept judges in our court system. It's that simple jaybird. God even says they walk in darkness vs5 and at vs 6 God says their going to die like the men that they are, corrupt.
You also made this statement, "so when the Almighty says sons of the Most High are in fact gods, is this an error?" It is not a matter of being in error, it's a matter of rightly understand what God means by READING THE CONTEXT." Why complicate things with "assumptions, presumptions, or reading into the text something that is not there. There are times when one should not be a "literalist" just like you saying, "The Most High says they are in fact gods, is this an error?" No, it's not an error. Jesus said He is the bread of life so would you take that literally and think that Jesus is a loaf of bread? Come on, THINK!
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
I know this will fall on deaf ears because you are willingly obstinate to defend polytheism, but no, there are no other gods in existence. You may delude yourself that there is but there isn't :
"...We know that the false gods in this world don’t really exist and that no god exists except the one God."
1 Corinthians 8:4 GW
https://bible.com/bible/70/1co.8.4.GW
"...We know that the false gods in this world don’t really exist and that no god exists except the one God."
1 Corinthians 8:4 GW
https://bible.com/bible/70/1co.8.4.GW