The scripture says to be baptised.....the scripture says he who believe and is baptised shall be saved...you say baptism is not required to be believer, that makes you a partial believer.....another one teaches... he who believes and is not baptised shall be saved..., which is totally opposed to the word...yet they say they believe...what do they really believe
What Happens to an UNBAPTIZED believer?
- Thread starter Atwood
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Like all of what I have seen from you it is only half true which makes it all a deception.
Salvation is by baptism of the Holy Spirit which can only be administered by God. salvation is by grace and only God can save.
Water baptism is for obedience but not for salvation. One must be saved before he can be obedient or his obedience is of no consequence to God. Only those things done through the leading of the Holy Spirit are of merit. Those things done in the flesh are as filthy rags before the Lord God.
Do you believe in the abiding presence of the Holy Spirit in the believer?
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Salvation is by baptism of the Holy Spirit which can only be administered by God. salvation is by grace and only God can save.
Water baptism is for obedience but not for salvation. One must be saved before he can be obedient or his obedience is of no consequence to God. Only those things done through the leading of the Holy Spirit are of merit. Those things done in the flesh are as filthy rags before the Lord God.
Do you believe in the abiding presence of the Holy Spirit in the believer?
For the cause of Christ
Roger
The Bible has many commandments, but the only one for salvation is Believe on the Lord Jesus, and you shall be saved.
Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness to everyone who believes.
That is true; it is also true that
everyone who believes and eats peanut butter sandwiches will be saved.
That only believe/faith is required is proven by the fact that salvation is offered just for believing so many times, with no ref to baptism.
You have no scripture for that one. Kindly refrain from making up your own doctrine. And you go on, just saying things, NewB. Stick to God's word, NewB.
You allude to Mark 16:16, which does not say what happens to the unbaptized believer. If belief must come before water baptism, then there will be unbaptized believers. You think if a man believes on Monday & the baptism is scheduler for next Sunday, he is damned if he dies first? You think a dying soldier on a battlefield can't be saved by trusting the Lord Jesus? So what if someone quote Acts 16 as "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved." So the dying soldier puts his trust in Christ, calling on His name in faith. You think Christ will then send him to the Lake of Fire & not keep His promise?
Mark 16:16 makes sense as Spirit baptism:
He who believes and (thus) is baptized (by the Spirit).
Spirit Baptism is the only kind that can be initiated upon belief most of the time. If a man believes & thus is Spirit baptized, of course the man will be saved. Compare, "Pull the trigger and shoot yourself, and then you will die."
No water is mentioned in Mark 16, but Spirit baptism is soon (again) mentioned in historical context, Acts 1: You shall be baptized with the Spirit not many days hence.
However you take it:
1) Mk 16:16 says nothing about any unbaptized believer.
2) Mk 16:16 is a rare verse which cannot be interpreted against the whole counsel of God repeated so many, many times: Believe/have faith/trust Christ, and you shall be saved, with no baptism mentioned.
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
John 3:16
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
1 John 5:13
I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.
1 John 5:10-13
Whoever believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. Whoever does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne concerning his Son. And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.
Ephesians 1:13
In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,
John 6:40
For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who beholdeth the Son, and believes on him, should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
Ephesians 2:8-10 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one John 6:47
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life.
John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.
John 3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
joy,
1 Peter 1:3-5
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
John 1:12
But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,
Revelation 3:5
The one who overcomes will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father… 1 John 5:4-5 For whatsoever is begotten of God overcomes the world: and this is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. And who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God? For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.
JOHN 20:30
Many other signs therefore did Jesus in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book: 31 but these are written, that ye may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye may have life in his name.
Act 13:48
And as the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of God: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
Faithful is the saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief: 16 howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me as chief might Jesus Christ show forth all his longsuffering, for an ensample of them that should thereafter believe on him unto eternal life.
1 Tim 1:15-17
Faithful is the saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief: howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me as chief might Jesus Christ show forth all his longsuffering, for an ensample of them that should thereafter believe on him unto eternal life.
1 John 5:13
These things have I written unto you, that ye may know that ye have eternal life, even unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God.
Eph 1:10ff
to sum up all things in Christ, the things in the heavens, and the things upon the earth; in him, I say in whom also we were made a heritage, having been foreordained according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his will; 12 to the end that we should be unto the praise of his glory, we who had before hoped in Christ: 13 in whom ye also, having heard the word of the truth, the gospel of your salvation,— in whom, having also believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 which is an earnest of our inheritance, unto the redemption of God’s own possession, unto the praise of his glory.
Luke 8:11-12
Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 And those by the way side are they that have heard; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word from their heart, that they may not believe and be saved.
Acts 16:31
And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus, and thou shalt be saved, thou and thy house.
1 Cor 1:21
it was God’s good pleasure through the foolishness of the preaching to save them that believe.
Gal 2:15-16
We being Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, 16 yet knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we believed on Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the law: because by the works of the law shall no flesh shall be justified.
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up; that whosoever believes may in him have eternal life.
John 3:14-18
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whosoever believes on him should not perish, but have eternal life. 1For God sent not the Son into the world to judge the world; but that the world should be saved through him. 1He that believes on him is not judged: he that believes not hath been judged already, because he hath not believed on the name of the only Son of God.
John 5:24
2Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth him that sent me, hath eternal life, and cometh not into judgment, but hath passed out of death into life.
John 6:47
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth hath eternal life.
John 10:27
But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who hath given them unto me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.
1 John 5:10-12
He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in him: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he hath not believed in the witness that God hath borne concerning his Son. And the witness is this, that God gave unto us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 He that hath the Son hath the life; he that hath not the Son of God hath not the life.
Ps 37:5-6
Commit thy way unto YHWH;
Trust also in him, and he will bring it to pass.
And he will make thy righteousness to go forth as the light,
And thy justice as the noonday.
Acts 15:8
And God, who knoweth the heart, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Spirit, even as he did unto us; and he made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.
Acts 26:18b
that they may receive remission of sins and an inheritance among them that are sanctified by faith in me.
Rom 1:16-17
For I am not ashamed of the gospel: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is revealed a righteousness of God from faith unto faith: as it is written, But the righteous shall live by faith.
Rom 3:21-30
But now apart from the law a righteousness of God hath been manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ unto all them that believe; for there is no distinction; 23 for all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God; 24 being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 whom God set forth to be a propitiation, through faith, in his blood, to show his righteousness because of the passing over of the sins done aforetime, in the forbearance of God; 26 for the showing, I say, of his righteousness at this present season: that he might himself be just, and the justifier of him that hath faith in Jesus. 27 Where then is the glorying? It is excluded. By what manner of law? of works? Nay: but by a law of faith. 28 We reckon therefore that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yea, of Gentiles also: 30 if so be that God is one, and he shall justify the circumcision by faith, and the uncircumcision through faith.
Rom 4:1ff
:1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, hath found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not toward God. 3 For what saith the scripture? And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him who works, the reward is not reckoned as of grace, but as of debt. 5 But to him that works not, but believeth on him that justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned for righteousness. 6 Even as David also pronounces blessing upon the man, to whom God reckons righteousness apart from works, 7 saying,
Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not reckon sin.
9 Is this blessing then pronounced upon the circumcision, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say, To Abraham his faith was reckoned for righteousness. 10 How then was it reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision: 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while he was in uncircumcision: that he might be the father of all them who believe, though they be in uncircumcision, that righteousness might be reckoned unto them; 12 and the father of circumcision to them who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham which he had in uncircumcision. 13 For not through the law was the promise to Abraham or to his seed that he should be heir of the world, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if they that are of the law are heirs, faith is made void, and the promise is made of none effect: 15 for the law works wrath; but where there is no law, neither is there transgression. 16 For this cause it is of faith, that it may be according to grace; to the end that the promise may be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all 17 (as it is written, A father of many nations have I made thee) before him whom he believed, even God, who giveth life to the dead, and calleth the things that are not, as though they were. 18 Who in hope believed against hope, to the end that he might become a father of many nations, according to that which had been spoken, So shall thy seed be. 19 And without being weakened in faith he considered his own body now as good as dead (he being about a hundred years old), and the deadness of Sarah’s womb; 20 yet, looking unto the promise of God, he wavered not through unbelief, but waxed strong through faith, giving glory to God, 21 and being fully assured that what he had promised, he was able also to perform. 22 Wherefore also it was reckoned unto him for righteousness.
Rom 5:1-2
Being therefore justified by faith, let us have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ; through whom also we have had our access by faith into this grace wherein we stand; and let us boast in hope of the glory of God.
Rom 9:30:
What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, who followed not after righteousness, attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith: but Israel, following after a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by works. They stumbled at the stone of stumbling; even as it is written,
Behold, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling and a rock of offence:
And he who believes on him shall not be put to shame.
Rom 10:4ff
For Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness to everyone who believes. For Moses writeth that the man that doeth the righteousness which is of the law shall live thereby. But the righteousness which is of faith says thus, Say not in thy heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down
or, Who shall descend into the abyss? (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead.) But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach.
Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness to everyone who believes.
That is true; it is also true that
everyone who believes and eats peanut butter sandwiches will be saved.
That only believe/faith is required is proven by the fact that salvation is offered just for believing so many times, with no ref to baptism.
You have no scripture for that one. Kindly refrain from making up your own doctrine. And you go on, just saying things, NewB. Stick to God's word, NewB.
You allude to Mark 16:16, which does not say what happens to the unbaptized believer. If belief must come before water baptism, then there will be unbaptized believers. You think if a man believes on Monday & the baptism is scheduler for next Sunday, he is damned if he dies first? You think a dying soldier on a battlefield can't be saved by trusting the Lord Jesus? So what if someone quote Acts 16 as "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved." So the dying soldier puts his trust in Christ, calling on His name in faith. You think Christ will then send him to the Lake of Fire & not keep His promise?
Mark 16:16 makes sense as Spirit baptism:
He who believes and (thus) is baptized (by the Spirit).
Spirit Baptism is the only kind that can be initiated upon belief most of the time. If a man believes & thus is Spirit baptized, of course the man will be saved. Compare, "Pull the trigger and shoot yourself, and then you will die."
No water is mentioned in Mark 16, but Spirit baptism is soon (again) mentioned in historical context, Acts 1: You shall be baptized with the Spirit not many days hence.
However you take it:
1) Mk 16:16 says nothing about any unbaptized believer.
2) Mk 16:16 is a rare verse which cannot be interpreted against the whole counsel of God repeated so many, many times: Believe/have faith/trust Christ, and you shall be saved, with no baptism mentioned.
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
John 3:16
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
1 John 5:13
I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.
1 John 5:10-13
Whoever believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. Whoever does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne concerning his Son. And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.
Ephesians 1:13
In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,
John 6:40
For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who beholdeth the Son, and believes on him, should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
Ephesians 2:8-10 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one John 6:47
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life.
John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.
John 3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
joy,
1 Peter 1:3-5
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
John 1:12
But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,
Revelation 3:5
The one who overcomes will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father… 1 John 5:4-5 For whatsoever is begotten of God overcomes the world: and this is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. And who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God? For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.
JOHN 20:30
Many other signs therefore did Jesus in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book: 31 but these are written, that ye may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye may have life in his name.
Act 13:48
And as the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of God: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
Faithful is the saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief: 16 howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me as chief might Jesus Christ show forth all his longsuffering, for an ensample of them that should thereafter believe on him unto eternal life.
1 Tim 1:15-17
Faithful is the saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief: howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me as chief might Jesus Christ show forth all his longsuffering, for an ensample of them that should thereafter believe on him unto eternal life.
1 John 5:13
These things have I written unto you, that ye may know that ye have eternal life, even unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God.
Eph 1:10ff
to sum up all things in Christ, the things in the heavens, and the things upon the earth; in him, I say in whom also we were made a heritage, having been foreordained according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his will; 12 to the end that we should be unto the praise of his glory, we who had before hoped in Christ: 13 in whom ye also, having heard the word of the truth, the gospel of your salvation,— in whom, having also believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 which is an earnest of our inheritance, unto the redemption of God’s own possession, unto the praise of his glory.
Luke 8:11-12
Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 And those by the way side are they that have heard; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word from their heart, that they may not believe and be saved.
Acts 16:31
And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus, and thou shalt be saved, thou and thy house.
1 Cor 1:21
it was God’s good pleasure through the foolishness of the preaching to save them that believe.
Gal 2:15-16
We being Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, 16 yet knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we believed on Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the law: because by the works of the law shall no flesh shall be justified.
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up; that whosoever believes may in him have eternal life.
John 3:14-18
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whosoever believes on him should not perish, but have eternal life. 1For God sent not the Son into the world to judge the world; but that the world should be saved through him. 1He that believes on him is not judged: he that believes not hath been judged already, because he hath not believed on the name of the only Son of God.
John 5:24
2Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth him that sent me, hath eternal life, and cometh not into judgment, but hath passed out of death into life.
John 6:47
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth hath eternal life.
John 10:27
But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who hath given them unto me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.
1 John 5:10-12
He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in him: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he hath not believed in the witness that God hath borne concerning his Son. And the witness is this, that God gave unto us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 He that hath the Son hath the life; he that hath not the Son of God hath not the life.
Ps 37:5-6
Commit thy way unto YHWH;
Trust also in him, and he will bring it to pass.
And he will make thy righteousness to go forth as the light,
And thy justice as the noonday.
Acts 15:8
And God, who knoweth the heart, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Spirit, even as he did unto us; and he made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.
Acts 26:18b
that they may receive remission of sins and an inheritance among them that are sanctified by faith in me.
Rom 1:16-17
For I am not ashamed of the gospel: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is revealed a righteousness of God from faith unto faith: as it is written, But the righteous shall live by faith.
Rom 3:21-30
But now apart from the law a righteousness of God hath been manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ unto all them that believe; for there is no distinction; 23 for all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God; 24 being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 whom God set forth to be a propitiation, through faith, in his blood, to show his righteousness because of the passing over of the sins done aforetime, in the forbearance of God; 26 for the showing, I say, of his righteousness at this present season: that he might himself be just, and the justifier of him that hath faith in Jesus. 27 Where then is the glorying? It is excluded. By what manner of law? of works? Nay: but by a law of faith. 28 We reckon therefore that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yea, of Gentiles also: 30 if so be that God is one, and he shall justify the circumcision by faith, and the uncircumcision through faith.
Rom 4:1ff
:1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, hath found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not toward God. 3 For what saith the scripture? And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him who works, the reward is not reckoned as of grace, but as of debt. 5 But to him that works not, but believeth on him that justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned for righteousness. 6 Even as David also pronounces blessing upon the man, to whom God reckons righteousness apart from works, 7 saying,
Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not reckon sin.
9 Is this blessing then pronounced upon the circumcision, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say, To Abraham his faith was reckoned for righteousness. 10 How then was it reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision: 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while he was in uncircumcision: that he might be the father of all them who believe, though they be in uncircumcision, that righteousness might be reckoned unto them; 12 and the father of circumcision to them who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham which he had in uncircumcision. 13 For not through the law was the promise to Abraham or to his seed that he should be heir of the world, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if they that are of the law are heirs, faith is made void, and the promise is made of none effect: 15 for the law works wrath; but where there is no law, neither is there transgression. 16 For this cause it is of faith, that it may be according to grace; to the end that the promise may be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all 17 (as it is written, A father of many nations have I made thee) before him whom he believed, even God, who giveth life to the dead, and calleth the things that are not, as though they were. 18 Who in hope believed against hope, to the end that he might become a father of many nations, according to that which had been spoken, So shall thy seed be. 19 And without being weakened in faith he considered his own body now as good as dead (he being about a hundred years old), and the deadness of Sarah’s womb; 20 yet, looking unto the promise of God, he wavered not through unbelief, but waxed strong through faith, giving glory to God, 21 and being fully assured that what he had promised, he was able also to perform. 22 Wherefore also it was reckoned unto him for righteousness.
Rom 5:1-2
Being therefore justified by faith, let us have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ; through whom also we have had our access by faith into this grace wherein we stand; and let us boast in hope of the glory of God.
Rom 9:30:
What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, who followed not after righteousness, attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith: but Israel, following after a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by works. They stumbled at the stone of stumbling; even as it is written,
Behold, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling and a rock of offence:
And he who believes on him shall not be put to shame.
Rom 10:4ff
For Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness to everyone who believes. For Moses writeth that the man that doeth the righteousness which is of the law shall live thereby. But the righteousness which is of faith says thus, Say not in thy heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down
or, Who shall descend into the abyss? (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead.) But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach.sure you quote scripture...but....Now there was a certain man in Caesarea, Cornelius by name, a centurion of the band called the Italian band, [SUP]2 [/SUP]a devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, who gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God always.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]He saw in a vision openly, as it were about the ninth hour of the day, an angel of God coming in unto him, and saying to him, Cornelius.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]And he, fastening his eyes upon him, and being affrighted, said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are gone up for a memorial before God.
the prayers and alms of an unsaved man went up as a memorial before God...
[SUP]3 [/SUP]He saw in a vision openly, as it were about the ninth hour of the day, an angel of God coming in unto him, and saying to him, Cornelius.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]And he, fastening his eyes upon him, and being affrighted, said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are gone up for a memorial before God.
the prayers and alms of an unsaved man went up as a memorial before God...
you believe but you do not even tremble so what do you believe? ...you don't believe Christ ...he said you must be baptised...
you say I make up doctrine...but you post...everyone who believes and eats peanut butter sandwiches will be saved. where in the scripture do you find that???? SAYING YOU BELIEVE Christ means nothing it you don't obey his words....which is what you do...you think by believing only you are safe....Abraham believed God but if he did not act do you think he would have had a son?......faith without works is dead my friend....If you believe you will follow his teachings....if you don't follow his teachings ,then what do you really believe????
you say I make up doctrine...but you post...everyone who believes and eats peanut butter sandwiches will be saved. where in the scripture do you find that???? SAYING YOU BELIEVE Christ means nothing it you don't obey his words....which is what you do...you think by believing only you are safe....Abraham believed God but if he did not act do you think he would have had a son?......faith without works is dead my friend....If you believe you will follow his teachings....if you don't follow his teachings ,then what do you really believe????
Continue to observe how no one has scripture that condemns an unbaptized believer.
Good scripture, Peaceful.
However, I am not following your argument.
I am saying that baptism, filling, indwelling, coming upon, regenerating, leading, & sealing are not all the same thing, though all works of the Holy Spirit. You seemed to think that baptism & filling were the same thing, but I pointed out that Spirit baptism is a NT work of the Holy Spirit, which puts men into the Body of Christ, the Church, a body which did not exist in the OT. Yet in the OT we do find men filled with the Spirit (not baptized). That was to alert you to the fact that filling and baptizing are not the same thing.
3 And thou shalt speak unto all that are wise-hearted, whom I have filled with the spirit of wisdom, that they make Aaron’s garments to sanctify him, that he may minister unto me in the priest’s office. 4 And these are the garments which they shall make: a breastplate, and an ephod, and a robe, and a coat of checker work, a mitre, and a girdle: and they shall make holy garments for Aaron thy brother, and his sons, that he may minister unto me in the priest’s office. 5 And they shall take the gold, and the blue, and the purple, and the scarlet, and the fine linen.
31:1 And Jehovah spake unto Moses, saying, 2 See, I have called by name Bezalel the son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah: 3 and I have filled him with the Spirit of God, in wisdom, and in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship, 4 to devise skilful works, to work in gold, and in silver, and in brass, 5 and in cutting of stones for setting, and in carving of wood, to work in all manner of workmanship.
Also, John the Baptist was filled before even born, and before the Lord Jesus would do work any Spirit baptism, before the yet future Body of Christ / Church (yet future in Mat 16: I will build My Church).
I thought you might have learned the above or something like it from the common 'tater which you don't want me to mention -- so I don't mention him, the male cow, as it were.
Good scripture, Peaceful.
However, I am not following your argument.
I am saying that baptism, filling, indwelling, coming upon, regenerating, leading, & sealing are not all the same thing, though all works of the Holy Spirit. You seemed to think that baptism & filling were the same thing, but I pointed out that Spirit baptism is a NT work of the Holy Spirit, which puts men into the Body of Christ, the Church, a body which did not exist in the OT. Yet in the OT we do find men filled with the Spirit (not baptized). That was to alert you to the fact that filling and baptizing are not the same thing.
3 And thou shalt speak unto all that are wise-hearted, whom I have filled with the spirit of wisdom, that they make Aaron’s garments to sanctify him, that he may minister unto me in the priest’s office. 4 And these are the garments which they shall make: a breastplate, and an ephod, and a robe, and a coat of checker work, a mitre, and a girdle: and they shall make holy garments for Aaron thy brother, and his sons, that he may minister unto me in the priest’s office. 5 And they shall take the gold, and the blue, and the purple, and the scarlet, and the fine linen.
31:1 And Jehovah spake unto Moses, saying, 2 See, I have called by name Bezalel the son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah: 3 and I have filled him with the Spirit of God, in wisdom, and in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship, 4 to devise skilful works, to work in gold, and in silver, and in brass, 5 and in cutting of stones for setting, and in carving of wood, to work in all manner of workmanship.
Also, John the Baptist was filled before even born, and before the Lord Jesus would do work any Spirit baptism, before the yet future Body of Christ / Church (yet future in Mat 16: I will build My Church).
I thought you might have learned the above or something like it from the common 'tater which you don't want me to mention -- so I don't mention him, the male cow, as it were.
It Has Not Been Found, a Verse to Show that Unbaptized Believers are damned.
Of course what we do is important, but off subject. What men do is important in that what they do condemns them: All our righteousnesses are as filthy rags. So like a fool man may stand before the Lord and pretend to be righteous, like the king who wore no clothes! Or we can get some smarts and cry out, God be merciful to me a sinner!
Works do not save.
The only works an unsaved man has are filthy rags.
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, not of works lest any CC poster should boast.
Of course what we do is important, but off subject. What men do is important in that what they do condemns them: All our righteousnesses are as filthy rags. So like a fool man may stand before the Lord and pretend to be righteous, like the king who wore no clothes! Or we can get some smarts and cry out, God be merciful to me a sinner!
Works do not save.
The only works an unsaved man has are filthy rags.
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, not of works lest any CC poster should boast.
Baptism has never been a separation of the two. It has always been of water and the Spirit. There is ONLY one baptism, it has been as defined by John 3:5 since the beginning. Baptism is entrance into the Body of Christ. It renews the lost relationship man was created to have with God thus regenerational. It is described in Rom 6:3-5.
You are free to make scripture mean whatever you like, but your view has never been the meaning of scripture.
If there is anything that could be called heresy would be your personal opinion and interpretation of scrpture.
You are free to make scripture mean whatever you like, but your view has never been the meaning of scripture.
If there is anything that could be called heresy would be your personal opinion and interpretation of scrpture.
the unbaptised believer will be baptised Atwood ...because he believes....if he refuses it means he does not believe and therefore he is condemned....
Why do you say I am claiming? ...did you not read the scripture?.....someone posted like you do sometimes..whatever we do in the flesh is as filthy rags...the scripture says....... the prayers and alms of an unsaved man went up as a memorial before God...
Why do you say I am claiming? ...did you not read the scripture?.....someone posted like you do sometimes..whatever we do in the flesh is as filthy rags...the scripture says....... the prayers and alms of an unsaved man went up as a memorial before God...
As of Yet there is nothing to show that unbaptized believers are condemned
It is noted, NewB, how you quote no scripture to prove that one. But we are considering what a man must do to be saved. As scripture reiterates, it is simply believe/have faith.
Now obedience is evidence of faith. And good works must follow salvation. He has promised to save the believer from His sin. You can't be saved without being saved! If you claim that refusing water baptism would support the POV that the guy is not really a believer, I agree with you.
Mark 16:16 says nothing about phony professors of belief, who really don't believe; neither does it address unbaptized believers. Geniunie Believers who are not water-baptized are common. They might be soldiers dying on a battlefield. So you think they are damned after they believe if their water baptism doesn't happen the same day they believer? No scripture for that one.
You have no scripture for that one; kindly refrain from making things up. It reminds me of the men who said not to send missionaries, because if God wants the Heathen saved, He will do it without our help.
You quote the OT story of smiting the rock & water gushing. It is a picture of Christ, the rock, being smitten on the cross for our salvation. Moses goofed & smote the rock a 2nd time later, when Moses had been told just to speak to the rock the 2nd time. Christ is once for all smitten to pay for our sins. Now all we need do is speak to the rock in faith: For whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved; a beautiful picture of salvation, which has nothing to do with water-baptism. The water of life flows out of the Savior.
Now the Lord can provide enough water to float a battleship wherever or whenever He wants. But this is very unlikely in a desert today or on a battlefield. And would you claim that once the man trusts Christ as Savior, he is still damned until the Lord does a water miracle on his behalf? It is unnecessary, since water-baptism never saves.
If a man repents of the sin of denying the Savior & deeming Him a mere chance-giver, but trusts the Savior for salvation, then at once He is Spirit baptized: Believe and be baptized; pull the trigger and get shot. Belief results in Spirit baptism.
But no scripture condemns anyone for lack of water-baptism.
It is noted, NewB, how you quote no scripture to prove that one. But we are considering what a man must do to be saved. As scripture reiterates, it is simply believe/have faith.
Now obedience is evidence of faith. And good works must follow salvation. He has promised to save the believer from His sin. You can't be saved without being saved! If you claim that refusing water baptism would support the POV that the guy is not really a believer, I agree with you.
Mark 16:16 says nothing about phony professors of belief, who really don't believe; neither does it address unbaptized believers. Geniunie Believers who are not water-baptized are common. They might be soldiers dying on a battlefield. So you think they are damned after they believe if their water baptism doesn't happen the same day they believer? No scripture for that one.
You have no scripture for that one; kindly refrain from making things up. It reminds me of the men who said not to send missionaries, because if God wants the Heathen saved, He will do it without our help.
You quote the OT story of smiting the rock & water gushing. It is a picture of Christ, the rock, being smitten on the cross for our salvation. Moses goofed & smote the rock a 2nd time later, when Moses had been told just to speak to the rock the 2nd time. Christ is once for all smitten to pay for our sins. Now all we need do is speak to the rock in faith: For whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved; a beautiful picture of salvation, which has nothing to do with water-baptism. The water of life flows out of the Savior.
Now the Lord can provide enough water to float a battleship wherever or whenever He wants. But this is very unlikely in a desert today or on a battlefield. And would you claim that once the man trusts Christ as Savior, he is still damned until the Lord does a water miracle on his behalf? It is unnecessary, since water-baptism never saves.
If a man repents of the sin of denying the Savior & deeming Him a mere chance-giver, but trusts the Savior for salvation, then at once He is Spirit baptized: Believe and be baptized; pull the trigger and get shot. Belief results in Spirit baptism.
But no scripture condemns anyone for lack of water-baptism.
the unbaptised believer will be baptised Atwood ...because he believes....if he refuses it means he does not believe and therefore he is condemned....
see you post the same thing because you do not understand scripture....is this a lie...this man was not saved but God accepted his prayers......
Now there was a certain man in Caesarea, Cornelius by name, a centurion of the band called the Italian band, [SUP]2 [/SUP]a devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, who gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God always.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]He saw in a vision openly, as it were about the ninth hour of the day, an angel of God coming in unto him, and saying to him, Cornelius.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]And he, fastening his eyes upon him, and being affrighted, said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are gone up for a memorial before God.
see you post the same thing because you do not understand scripture....is this a lie...this man was not saved but God accepted his prayers......
Now there was a certain man in Caesarea, Cornelius by name, a centurion of the band called the Italian band, [SUP]2 [/SUP]a devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, who gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God always.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]He saw in a vision openly, as it were about the ninth hour of the day, an angel of God coming in unto him, and saying to him, Cornelius.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]And he, fastening his eyes upon him, and being affrighted, said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are gone up for a memorial before God.
Those Who Deny the Savior as only & exclusive, drone on,
unable to find a single verse that condemns unbaptized believers.
Someone erroneously tried to establish something about water-baptism by quoting passages that mention no water. Mark 16; Acts 2:38; and Romans 6 mention no water.
Then deceitfully Acts 16:31 and 16:33 were run together without any ellipsis to show what happens in 16:32.
Rom 6 and Gal 3:37 speak of baptism into Christ, not into water.
1 Corinthians 12:13 was quoted, which is about Spirit baptism, not water baptism.
1 Peter 3:21 was quoted where baptism is a figure of salvation, not the substance
1 Peter 3:21
“The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:”
Then the misleading just-a-few statement was make:
But in fact all the passages which connect baptism in some way with salvation (or seem to on first glance) are VERY FEW and contrast with the abundant scripture where salvation is only by faith/believe.
Rom 9:30:
What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, who followed not after righteousness, attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith: but Israel, following after a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by works. They stumbled at the stone of stumbling; even as it is written,
Behold, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling and a rock of offence:
And he who believes on him shall not be put to shame.
Rom 10:4ff
For Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness to everyone who believes. For Moses writeth that the man that doeth the righteousness which is of the law shall live thereby. But the righteousness which is of faith says thus, Say not in thy heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down or, Who shall descend into the abyss? (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead.) But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach.
Gal 2:15-16
We being Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, yet knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we believed on Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the law: because by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.
Gal 3:
This only would I learn from you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now perfected in the flesh? 4 Did ye suffer so many things in vain? if it be indeed in vain. 5 He therefore that supplieth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness. 7 Know therefore that they that are of faith, the same are sons of Abraham. 8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all the nations be blessed. 9 So then they that are of faith are blessed with the faithful Abraham. For as many as are of the works of the law are under a curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one who continues not in all things that are written in the book of the law, to do them. Now that no man is justified by the law before God, is evident: for, The righteous shall live by faith; 12 and the law is not of faith; but, He that doeth them shall live in them. Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us; for it is written, Cursed is every one who hangs on a tree: that upon the Gentiles might come the blessing of Abraham in Christ Jesus; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
Gal 3:22ff
But the scripture shut up all things under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. But before faith came, we were kept in ward under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. So that the law is become our tutor to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But now that faith is come, we are no longer under a tutor. For ye are all sons of God, through faith, in Christ Jesus.
Gal 5:5-6
For we through the Spirit by faith wait for the hope of righteousness. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision avails anything, nor uncircumcision; but faith working through love.
Philip 3:8-9
Yea verily, and I count all things to be loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but refuse, that I may gain Christ, and be found in him, not having a righteousness of mine own, even that which is of the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith:
Col 2:6
As therefore ye received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in him, 7 rooted and builded up in him, and established in your faith, even as ye were taught, abounding in thanksgiving.
2 Tim 3:15b
the sacred writings which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
Titus 1:4
to Titus, my true child after a common faith: Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Saviour.
Heb 3:19ff
And we see that they were not able to enter in because of unbelief. Let us fear therefore, lest haply, a promise being left of entering into his rest, any one of you should seem to have come short of it. 2 For indeed we have had good tidings preached unto us, even as also they: but the word of hearing did not profit them, because it was not united by faith with them that heard. For we who have believed do enter into that rest;
Heb 10:39
But we are not of them that shrink back unto perdition; but of them that have faith unto the saving of the soul.
Heb 11:7
By faith Noah, being warned of God concerning things not seen as yet, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; through which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.
1 Pet 1:3ff
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. 6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, ye have been put to grief in manifold trials, 7 that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold that perisheth though it is proved by fire, may be found unto praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ: 8 whom not having seen ye love; on whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice greatly with joy unspeakable and full of glory: 9 receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
1 John 5:4-5
4 For whatsoever is begotten of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that hath overcome the world, even our faith. 5 And who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
unable to find a single verse that condemns unbaptized believers.
Someone erroneously tried to establish something about water-baptism by quoting passages that mention no water. Mark 16; Acts 2:38; and Romans 6 mention no water.
Then deceitfully Acts 16:31 and 16:33 were run together without any ellipsis to show what happens in 16:32.
Rom 6 and Gal 3:37 speak of baptism into Christ, not into water.
1 Corinthians 12:13 was quoted, which is about Spirit baptism, not water baptism.
1 Peter 3:21 was quoted where baptism is a figure of salvation, not the substance
1 Peter 3:21
“The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:”
Then the misleading just-a-few statement was make:
But in fact all the passages which connect baptism in some way with salvation (or seem to on first glance) are VERY FEW and contrast with the abundant scripture where salvation is only by faith/believe.
Rom 9:30:
What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, who followed not after righteousness, attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith: but Israel, following after a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by works. They stumbled at the stone of stumbling; even as it is written,
Behold, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling and a rock of offence:
And he who believes on him shall not be put to shame.
Rom 10:4ff
For Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness to everyone who believes. For Moses writeth that the man that doeth the righteousness which is of the law shall live thereby. But the righteousness which is of faith says thus, Say not in thy heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down
or, Who shall descend into the abyss? (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead.) But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach.Gal 2:15-16
We being Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, yet knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we believed on Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the law: because by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.
Gal 3:
This only would I learn from you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now perfected in the flesh? 4 Did ye suffer so many things in vain? if it be indeed in vain. 5 He therefore that supplieth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness. 7 Know therefore that they that are of faith, the same are sons of Abraham. 8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all the nations be blessed. 9 So then they that are of faith are blessed with the faithful Abraham. For as many as are of the works of the law are under a curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one who continues not in all things that are written in the book of the law, to do them. Now that no man is justified by the law before God, is evident: for, The righteous shall live by faith; 12 and the law is not of faith; but, He that doeth them shall live in them. Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us; for it is written, Cursed is every one who hangs on a tree: that upon the Gentiles might come the blessing of Abraham in Christ Jesus; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
Gal 3:22ff
But the scripture shut up all things under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. But before faith came, we were kept in ward under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. So that the law is become our tutor to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But now that faith is come, we are no longer under a tutor. For ye are all sons of God, through faith, in Christ Jesus.
Gal 5:5-6
For we through the Spirit by faith wait for the hope of righteousness. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision avails anything, nor uncircumcision; but faith working through love.
Philip 3:8-9
Yea verily, and I count all things to be loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but refuse, that I may gain Christ, and be found in him, not having a righteousness of mine own, even that which is of the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith:
Col 2:6
As therefore ye received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in him, 7 rooted and builded up in him, and established in your faith, even as ye were taught, abounding in thanksgiving.
2 Tim 3:15b
the sacred writings which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
Titus 1:4
to Titus, my true child after a common faith: Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Saviour.
Heb 3:19ff
And we see that they were not able to enter in because of unbelief. Let us fear therefore, lest haply, a promise being left of entering into his rest, any one of you should seem to have come short of it. 2 For indeed we have had good tidings preached unto us, even as also they: but the word of hearing did not profit them, because it was not united by faith with them that heard. For we who have believed do enter into that rest;
Heb 10:39
But we are not of them that shrink back unto perdition; but of them that have faith unto the saving of the soul.
Heb 11:7
By faith Noah, being warned of God concerning things not seen as yet, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; through which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.
1 Pet 1:3ff
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. 6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, ye have been put to grief in manifold trials, 7 that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold that perisheth though it is proved by fire, may be found unto praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ: 8 whom not having seen ye love; on whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice greatly with joy unspeakable and full of glory: 9 receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
1 John 5:4-5
4 For whatsoever is begotten of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that hath overcome the world, even our faith. 5 And who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
A Lot of Unscriptural Claims are Dreamed up, which fail for Bible proof. And
no passage ever condemns the unbaptized believer.
The thread is about the man who does believe, yet is not baptized, for whatever reason. No scripture condemns such a man. And you also have none, though you can go on making things up.
If as you claim, refusing water baptism means a man is not a believer, then that has nothing to do with an unbaptized believer.
Now do you actually deny that unbaptized real believers exist?
no passage ever condemns the unbaptized believer.
The thread is about the man who does believe, yet is not baptized, for whatever reason. No scripture condemns such a man. And you also have none, though you can go on making things up.
If as you claim, refusing water baptism means a man is not a believer, then that has nothing to do with an unbaptized believer.
Now do you actually deny that unbaptized real believers exist?
NewB alluded to scripture, where (as usual) there is
nothing about condemnation of the unbaptized believer.
Actually the scripture does not say that. Scripture reports what a man said to another man. I don't recall that scripture says he was prophesying. Conversation accurately reported in the Bible does not prove doctrine. Job & his 3 friends said a lot of things to each other.
The scripture is what says, All our righteousnesses are as filthy rags. I believe it. Do you deny God's word?
In your quote there is nothing about "righteousnesses." If God hears the sinners legitimate call for salvation, that doesn't prove that the sinner had righteousnesses. "God be merciful to me a sinner," may indeed get God's attention, but that is not to say that he has righteousnesses that are anything but filthy rags.
nothing about condemnation of the unbaptized believer.
Actually the scripture does not say that. Scripture reports what a man said to another man. I don't recall that scripture says he was prophesying. Conversation accurately reported in the Bible does not prove doctrine. Job & his 3 friends said a lot of things to each other.
The scripture is what says, All our righteousnesses are as filthy rags. I believe it. Do you deny God's word?
In your quote there is nothing about "righteousnesses." If God hears the sinners legitimate call for salvation, that doesn't prove that the sinner had righteousnesses. "God be merciful to me a sinner," may indeed get God's attention, but that is not to say that he has righteousnesses that are anything but filthy rags.
While no existence of scripture saying that unbelieving babtists are condemned (albeit they beez all wet) -- whoops, that didn't come out right!
While there is no scripture stating that unbaptized believers are condemned,
A poster invites us to hippity-hop down the suicide rabbit path:
Saved is saved. Consider the outrageousness of this logic, NewB, but
I am telling you that if you are saved, why then you are saved!
Now you need to clarify your sewer pipe gambit: Are you talking about present (things present) or future (things to come) sewer pipe?
But why don't we disgust this another way:
Are you telling me that one who commits sewer pipe goes to Hell if he believes and manages to get dunked in the pool before he dies? There he is with a revolver smoking in his hand & half his brain oozing out (but the bullet missed his speech centers); so he groans: "I just saw the light; don't call 911, just drag me into that water tank over there, & baptize me so I don't go to Hay-yell.
Now you just had a conversion before this, say 1/2 hour ago, and stopping trusting in the idol of water-baptism as your Savior.
But as you are dragging the body across the street to the pool, an 18 wheeler finishes him off.
So then you mutter, "It didn't make any difference for this sewerpiper, for he was trusting in water baptism instead of the Savior anyway."
Consider the irony of another situation.
Here is a bloke who is convinced that only believers may be baptized. But then he adds in water baptism to his soteriology. But then he can never get baptized because by trusting in water baptism, he is not a believer in the Lord Jesus as only & sufficient Savior. Thus he is only playing with water, not being baptized at all.
What if sewerpipe?
Well what if this? And what if that?
What if someone steps on your blue swede shoes?
Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities,
nor things present, nor things to come,
nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
While there is no scripture stating that unbaptized believers are condemned,
A poster invites us to hippity-hop down the suicide rabbit path:
Saved is saved. Consider the outrageousness of this logic, NewB, but
I am telling you that if you are saved, why then you are saved!
Now you need to clarify your sewer pipe gambit: Are you talking about present (things present) or future (things to come) sewer pipe?
But why don't we disgust this another way:
Are you telling me that one who commits sewer pipe goes to Hell if he believes and manages to get dunked in the pool before he dies? There he is with a revolver smoking in his hand & half his brain oozing out (but the bullet missed his speech centers); so he groans: "I just saw the light; don't call 911, just drag me into that water tank over there, & baptize me so I don't go to Hay-yell.
Now you just had a conversion before this, say 1/2 hour ago, and stopping trusting in the idol of water-baptism as your Savior.
But as you are dragging the body across the street to the pool, an 18 wheeler finishes him off.
So then you mutter, "It didn't make any difference for this sewerpiper, for he was trusting in water baptism instead of the Savior anyway."
Consider the irony of another situation.
Here is a bloke who is convinced that only believers may be baptized. But then he adds in water baptism to his soteriology. But then he can never get baptized because by trusting in water baptism, he is not a believer in the Lord Jesus as only & sufficient Savior. Thus he is only playing with water, not being baptized at all.
What if sewerpipe?
Well what if this? And what if that?
What if someone steps on your blue swede shoes?
Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities,
nor things present, nor things to come,
nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Since the topic is about unbaptized believers, let us continue to observe how
no one has found proof of condemnation of unbaptized believers.
An excellent post, Kenneth! I had not thought of that argument. You deserve a like for it.
So then refusing to be water-baptized would be one of those sins that will be forgiven.
no one has found proof of condemnation of unbaptized believers.
An excellent post, Kenneth! I had not thought of that argument. You deserve a like for it.
So then refusing to be water-baptized would be one of those sins that will be forgiven.